UCI Gravel World Championships 2023, October 7-8, Italy

[ChewbaccaDefense]

I still don't get the point you're trying to make (monkey in space and manick guy named Jack):
We all agree US gravel races are fun, we all agree guys like WvA and MvdP would smash any race.

So we agree. Just tell us from the beginning what you accept (or better: don't accept) as reality (that pro tour riders would take over any random US gravel race, if they wanted), and what you want reality to be (heroic wins by Keegan Swenson in mud 3-feet deep after a 300 mile race because those euro pro boys weren't man enough).

Reality and phantasy of what reality should be are different things in your minds, that's very obvious. But as said, most people cheer for the underdog, the lone breakaway rider, they value the smaller races for the connoisseurs, the cat. 1.2 races in France that are won by French who make surprisingly good money on teams with stupid French sponsors that pay way too much for overvalued riders... Just like that Keegan Swenson guy that gets paid well because he is in the center of the gravel hype. Just like Belgian top 10 CX riders who make more money than 90% of proCT riders and gravel riders. Japanese Keirin riders who live in separate houses / schools with other keirin riders in a strict regime of training.
All those niches are valued, and we all love a good race between homeboys / traditional heroes of the sport and the so-called superstars, where the homeboys win because they have particular experience in the sport.

But don't you ever think that, in a sport as brutally honest as cycling, the odds favour any of those hidden niche riders, be it in Japanese Keirin, Belgian CX or US gravel. The local heroes are just that: local, and dreams of keirin fans were smashed the moment Theo Bos competed, Belgian CX is dominated by a tridente but mainly MvdP and US gravel will soon be conquered by any good pro who has a good incentive (money or too much time on hands) to ride one of those for real.
The odd exception may still happen, but the general consensus is that riders make the race, and while absentees are always wrong and winners are always right, there is simply no way to debate chances of current top 10 US gravel riders vs. pro tour pros without resorting to vague arguments and ignoring the numbers.

I couldn't care less

 

[Volderke]

OK, ignore. If you want to set your own rules for discussion (those who answer what you want to read are appreciated, others who differ their opinion are disrespected) the discussion ends. Have a happy fairytale-life and maybe one day I'll smash you in a US gravel race

 

[Bolder]

Throughout this debate one common theme that some like to dismiss is the amount of money that the top gravel racers are making in the US. A good buddy of mine is Keegan Swenson's personal mechanic (for races) and also does the wrenching for the Santa Cruz HTSquad when they race as a team. He gets paid (as a mechanic) more $ than 80% of road pros on PCT teams. Keegan would and has laughed at WT contracts. Just saying.

Yeah, but they are working hard for that money. I used to get tired just reading Stetina's blog.

At least on a Pro Conti or higher team you've got a bunch of mechanics, soigneurs, drivers, coaches, people who make your travel arrangements. And low level WT riders don't make much in base salary anyway. Pct riders earn 40—100k, which is not much to brag about. WT minimum is what, 60k?

Swenson is a quality rider but he wouldn't bring anything special to the WT peloton, except US name recognition. If he's grossing 200k a year doing US gravel, no way he should go to the WT unless he gets a really fat multi-year contract.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

OK, ignore. If you want to set your own rules for discussion (those who answer what you want to read are appreciated, others who differ their opinion are disrespected) the discussion ends. Have a happy fairytale-life and maybe one day I'll smash you in a US gravel race

I couldn't care less if you finished anything in front of me. I don't ride to conquer people, I ride because I love being on my bike.

 

[Barkintheeye]

People I spoke to said that in general it was a technically easy course but that the descents were quite sketchy and difficult. I guess that the many crashes confirms that.

 

[ManicJack]

I couldn't care less

Make it two of us. That person needs to look in the mirror while trying to accuse someone of having an agenda.

 

[ManicJack]

OK, ignore. If you want to set your own rules for discussion (those who answer what you want to read are appreciated, others who differ their opinion are disrespected) the discussion ends. Have a happy fairytale-life and maybe one day I'll smash you in a US gravel race

You have issues

 

[ManicJack]

Yeah, but they are working hard for that money. I used to get tired just reading Stetina's blog.

At least on a Pro Conti or higher team you've got a bunch of mechanics, soigneurs, drivers, coaches, people who make your travel arrangements. And low level WT riders don't make much in base salary anyway. Pct riders earn 40—100k, which is not much to brag about. WT minimum is what, 60k?

Swenson is a quality rider but he wouldn't bring anything special to the WT peloton, except US name recognition. If he's grossing 200k a year doing US gravel, no way he should go to the WT unless he gets a really fat multi-year contract.

Agree on all points. The Santa Cruz HTSquad is probably the only team with a real professional support infrastructure. On that front Swenson's life is pretty simple compared to nearly all the other top participants. I have only read Stetinas blog a couple times but his life does seem pretty busy to say the least.

 

[Kubackjeee]

.

Dude, it was a joke...now, you're just being an a$$hole...what kind of person would believe that someone actually believes you need bulls hurting people, in order to be a proper gravel race? Just walk away, Sunshine, just walk away.

And Sunshine, I don't have a single "wide, straight road" anywhere near me...I'm not sure who it is that hurt you, but go freak out on them. I was trying to lighten the mood...if you need to measure d!cks, you're losing the battle...which was never a battle.

Was late and night and was tired of You trolling all the time that this was not a proper gravel race. Clearly misunderstood Your aprroach this time, so my bad mate. Not here to make enemies so sorry for that.

But mate You really have to swallow it. The distance between your local herose and euro pros is big. Not in Your favor mate. Keegan did great, but he is the only one who could keep up. And looking at power this effort was even harder for him then Leadville.

The rest of the US boys got crushed and the female domintor Sofia who wanted to race for a gold got annihilated.

In order for Keegan to reach the absolute top world level he would need to race against big boys in Europe. Competing against bums in USA just won't get him there.

But I am sure he is more then happy personally and financially in USA and I fully respect that. But we should end the debate if he can be as strong as top WT boys.

 

[saunaking]

active WT pros who are top 200 at the time of the start? none, ever

Didn't Remco start some gravel race in the US last year?

Edit-
Remco Evenepoel was in the United States to do bike supplier Specialized a favor and rode in Kansas in his first gravel race. After more than 4 hours of racing, our young compatriot crossed the finish line in sixth place.

Mattia Cattaneo, an Italian teammate of Evenepoel at Deceuninck-Quick Step, finished eighth in the gravel race in Kansas. Evenepoel conceded 13 minutes on the first finisher, American transgender athlete Molly Cameron.

 

[ManicJack]

Didn't Remco start some gravel race in the US last year?

Yep with a teammate if I remember. Think he did the shorter of the two distances. Probably had something to do with Specialized.

 

[Volderke]

You have issues

another ignore as I can live on this forum without though talk, no arguments-disscusions, ridicule and ad hominem attacks.

If you happen to put riders in boxes (that's a gravel rider / gravel expert, that's a road cyclist,...) you're missing a lot about how most cyclist are just that tiny bit more open-minded towards all terrains. But it seems some here have no clue at all how much many pros train on gravel bikes, and they have no idea what exactly would make a rider more of a "gravel expert" than another rider.

Still they want a gravel racer to win.... Guess what? Mohoric is as much a gravel racer as anyone out there. It's just that he earns more money with road racing.

 

[ManicJack]

another ignore as I can live on this forum without though talk, no arguments-disscusions, ridicule and ad hominem attacks.

If you happen to put riders in boxes (that's a gravel rider / gravel expert, that's a road cyclist,...) you're missing a lot about how most cyclist are just that tiny bit more open-minded towards all terrains. But it seems some here have no clue at all how much many pros train on gravel bikes, and they have no idea what exactly would make a rider more of a "gravel expert" than another rider.

Still they want a gravel racer to win.... Guess what? Mohoric is as much a gravel racer as anyone out there. It's just that he earns more money with road racing.

The ignore is appreciated since you can not get it through your head that we are in 95% agreement but you are unable to move on from the other 5%. Adios.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

another ignore as I can live on this forum without though talk, no arguments-disscusions, ridicule and ad hominem attacks.

If you happen to put riders in boxes (that's a gravel rider / gravel expert, that's a road cyclist,...) you're missing a lot about how most cyclist are just that tiny bit more open-minded towards all terrains. But it seems some here have no clue at all how much many pros train on gravel bikes, and they have no idea what exactly would make a rider more of a "gravel expert" than another rider.

Still they want a gravel racer to win.... Guess what? Mohoric is as much a gravel racer as anyone out there. It's just that he earns more money with road racing.

Whatever man, one of these days, I'll get you on a Unicycle, playing a trumpet, with a clown hat on, and I'll do the same, and I'll drop you like a bad habit...

Go win whatever race you need to win, in your mind. It seems to feed your will to survive.

 

[ManicJack]

And looking at power this effort was even harder for him then Leadville.

I'm not going to look it up but are you talking AP or NP? If you are referencing AP, you may want to take a look at the profile of Leadville.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

Was late and night and was tired of You trolling all the time that this was not a proper gravel race. Clearly misunderstood Your aprroach this time, so my bad mate. Not here to make enemies so sorry for that.

But mate You really have to swallow it. The distance between your local herose and euro pros is big. Not in Your favor mate. Keegan did great, but he is the only one who could keep up. And looking at power this effort was even harder for him then Leadville.

The rest of the US boys got crushed and the female domintor Sofia who wanted to race for a gold got annihilated.

In order for Keegan to reach the absolute top world level he would need to race against big boys in Europe. Competing against bums in USA just won't get him there.

But I am sure he is more then happy personally and financially in USA and I fully respect that. But we should end the debate if he can be as strong as top WT boys.

Still being an a$$hole.

 

[memyselfandI]

There's this odd talk how Keegan would and has laughed at WT contracts. Maybe, maybe not. Athletes have different goals, it's not necessarily only money. If you're a road cyclist with roadie ambitions, to win race like Ronde van Vlanderen, or Gran Tour you choose path you need to choose and it's not just salary first. You maybe do short term sacrifices to reach long term goals. And then when you arrive to the top, you are so big investment for the team that you are not soloist, privateer anymore. You're race program is not decided only by yourself. This is one reason why there's limitations for top dogs to visit races like Outbound.

 

[ManicJack]

There's this odd talk how Keegan would and has laughed at WT contracts. Maybe, maybe not. Athletes have different goals, it's not necessarily only money. If you're a road cyclist with roadie ambitions, to win race like Ronde van Vlanderen, or Gran Tour you choose path you need to choose and it's not just salary first. You maybe do short term sacrifices to reach long term goals. And then when you arrive to the top, you are so big investment for the team that you are not soloist, privateer anymore. You're race program is not decided only by yourself. This is one reason why there's limitations for top dogs to visit races like Outbound.

Granted there are very few people capable of doing it, but making good money while creating your own path in cycling is relatively new. May disappear at anytime. Right now the industry is killing off their marketing departments and using influencers. Will it last? We'll see. Can't blame someone for riding the wave.

 

[proffate]

There's this odd talk how Keegan would and has laughed at WT contracts. Maybe, maybe not. Athletes have different goals, it's not necessarily only money. If you're a road cyclist with roadie ambitions, to win race like Ronde van Vlanderen, or Gran Tour you choose path you need to choose and it's not just salary first. You maybe do short term sacrifices to reach long term goals. And then when you arrive to the top, you are so big investment for the team that you are not soloist, privateer anymore. You're race program is not decided only by yourself. This is one reason why there's limitations for top dogs to visit races like Outbound.

Keegan appears to pedal enough watts at threshold that he can choose whatever kind of bike racing to participate in. The majority of his wattage peers opt for UCI road cycling or UCI XC. The reason why is probably a sensitive subject for Keegan as the undertone of the question is, "why are you sandbagging?" or "what you're doing is less important" or "what protocols are you unwilling to subject yourself to?" Setting that aside, the silly thing is to somehow conclude that Keegan's excellence indicates that the level of competition is equivalent between the different disciplines/fields. It's clearly not, and if you're arguing that pedaling a bike over here is someways qualitatively different than pedaling a bike over there, then you're equally implying that Keegan could not be successful over there as you are implying that those distant Slavs could never succeed in our special Freedom Arena of Muddy Truth. But it's apparent that these ardent gravel fanatics haven't thought through the implications of their arguments, because I doubt they're ready to place limits on Keegan's potential.

 

[ManicJack]

It's clearly not, and if you're arguing that pedaling a bike over here is someways qualitatively different than pedaling a bike over there, then you're equally implying that Keegan could not be successful over there as you are implying that those distant Slavs could never succeed in our special Freedom Arena of Muddy Truth. But it's apparent that these ardent gravel fanatics haven't thought through the implications of their arguments, because I doubt they're ready to place limits on Keegan's potential.

All this nonsense over a belief that the world's course sucked compared to what it could be, and instead of just admitting that it did, a few posters have turned the argument into an us against them. Yeah we get it. The USA sucks at all things cycling. Pretty common theme on this forum.

 

[Red Lobster]

I'm not going to look it up but are you talking AP or NP? If you are referencing AP, you may want to take a look at the profile of Leadville.

And the altitude - nobody is putting up anything close to their best numbers at Leadville.
[ETA: Maybe that's what you meant by "profile".]

 

[ManicJack]

And the altitude - nobody is putting up anything close to their best numbers at Leadville.
[ETA: Maybe that's what you meant by "profile".]

Altitude definitely is a factor but if you are looking at someone's Avg Power, it is going to be super low due to all of the descending.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

Granted there are very few people capable of doing it, but making good money while creating your own path in cycling is relatively new. May disappear at anytime. Right now the industry is killing off their marketing departments and using influencers. Will it last? We'll see. Can't blame someone for riding the wave.

And while they're just "bums," there are several making good money, traveling around the country, racing races they love, making money off of their social media, and doing so without the incessent demands of d0uchebags like Lefevere slagging them at every turn, along with European "fans" scrutinizing their every move...can't imagine why someone would turn down a WT contract when they were making 6 figures, without all that sh!t. <- So many times, I forget the question mark on my rhetorical questions.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

All this nonsense over a belief that the world's course sucked compared to what it could be, and instead of just admitting that it did, a few posters have turned the argument into an us against them. Yeah we get it. The USA sucks at all things cycling. Pretty common theme on this forum.

This

 

[Red Rick]

And while they're just "bums," there are several making good money, traveling around the country, racing races they love, making money off of their social media, and doing so without the incessent demands of d0uchebags like Lefevere slagging them at every turn, along with European "fans" scrutinizing their every move...can't imagine why someone would turn down a WT contract when they were making 6 figures, without all that sh!t. <- So many times, I forget the question mark on my rhetorical questions.

Nobody flames gravel riders for doing what they love and making money while doing it, nor does anyone flame gravel enthusiasts for loving to ride on gravel or watching gravel races.

Literally all the blowback is from insisting gravel riders are of similar level to top road cyclists, and the specific reason it gets so much blowback is simply that the evidence they're not is so strong.