UCI Gravel World Championships 2023, October 7-8, Italy

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I'm not asking to try and start an argument, but what gravel races have you done? I ask because I feel there are just a bunch of assumptions from people that watch bike racing and don't or never have raced. Not you specifically.
What exactly do you want to discuss about what I said?

I only said gravel races are harder than normal road races, and that it's more likely 'real' pros will dominate over 'true' gravel races as long as those 'real' pros also have some off-road pedigree (most pros I know do MTB / CX / gravel, not only WvA).

If you want to refute, feel free.

I race road races, and do a lot of off-road in winter (often very muddy) and my power meter invariably shows that I have to push harder off-road and I know I can't 'profit' as much from draft off-road.

ps: if this is about "US races are harder", well, they are not. e.g. Unbound averaged 300W NP:
 
I'm not asking to try and start an argument, but what gravel races have you done? I ask because I feel there are just a bunch of assumptions from people that watch bike racing and don't or never have raced. Not you specifically.

I've ridden Kings forest, where they hold the British gravel championships, on my "gravel" bike, and it was a flipping tough ride, and I've spectated enough off road events supporting friends who did ride races, so I feel I have an appreciation of what a tough off road course is like.

And I look at the world champs course and that appeals to me as something to ride, that importantly looks like something I could ride.

But I'm not daft enough to enter a race myself as I don't pretend to have any skill or ability to compete at the level required. I'd probably get pulled after the first lap for my own and everyone elses safety and that does no ones self esteem any good.
 
What exactly do you want to discuss about what I said?

ps: if this is about "US races are harder", well, they are not. e.g. Unbound averaged 300W NP:
Comparing Strava numbers from one race to another means nothing. Your comparison of DiMarchi and Roche in one race to the winner of Paris Tours means even less, especially when you are using Strava weighted power for one race and a supposed normalized power from another. They are not the same thing. These guys (at their peak fitness) all have FTP's of near or above 6w/kg. You have no clue how much they weigh or what their w/kg was at the purported numbers.

In regards to your comment about the nation of a races existence what the heck does that mean? The only thing that matters in comparing races in this discussion is the surface and terrain no matter what the location.
 
He is referring to the difficulty of the course surface, and terrain. The battle rages on about this subject, but I saw nothing from watching that suggests it is as difficult, surface and terrain wise, than many of the big US gravel races. This year's course was harder than last, and was won on a gravel bike (I do wonder if Wout was on an Aspero?), and I'm not saying that it was a cake walk, but it wasn't Unbound, or SBT, or Crusher in the Tushar, or Leadville, or severl others. Someone pointed out it was more like BWR CA, and I think that is a more apt comparison.
You're right, it wasn't SBT gravel, where Keegan averaged 23.8mph solo for most of it and ran slicks without crashing. On this course he averaged 20.8 and couldn't stay upright.

And get this, Leadville is a MTB race. I kid you not. So probably not a good measuring stick for a gravel course.

To the original point that roadies are only dominating because there is something wrong and unamerican with the course, be it too short or too untechnical --- that's a weird coping strategy. These road guys have insane handling skills and endurance. The gap would only be bigger the longer and "harder" you make the course.
 
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Comparing Strava numbers from one race to another means nothing. Your comparison of DiMarchi and Roche in one race to the winner of Paris Tours means even less, especially when you are using Strava weighted power for one race and a supposed normalized power from another. They are not the same thing. These guys (at their peak fitness) all have FTP's of near or above 6w/kg. You have no clue how much they weigh or what their w/kg was at the purported numbers.

In regards to your comment about the nation of a races existence what the heck does that mean? The only thing that matters in comparing races in this discussion is the surface and terrain no matter what the location.
So you’re saying you can’t compare but still you’re right. Good for you. I know power is a very good indication of how hard a race is, and I see lower power numbers in races you consider the real deal. What do you have to support your ideas / oponions / strong thoughts on the matter?
 
It's about a lot more than that. Again, several WT pros have been on the start line for Unbound, and they're 0'fer.
The problem is that you are going to see people scout through the results of these races, and see names that they recognise, and whose performance levels they know, and extrapolate from that.

For example, looking at Unbound this year, obviously Swenson won it, but then you see Petr Vakoč in 2nd - 8 years as a pro with 5 at the WT level, but whose level never rebounded after his 2018 injuries.

You have Lachlan Morton 3rd, somebody who has been around the pro scene for a decade and whose best year was actually with Jelly Belly, largely topping out as a domestique at the top level.

You have Laurens ten Dam 4th, a 42-year-old who has been retired as a road pro for four years and whose results had been tending downward for a few years prior to that.

Ian Boswell is 5th, also road retired for four years, but a decade younger, somebody who also topped out at WT domestique kind of level.

Peter Stetina is in 7th, likewise retired from road in 2019, was a very good mountain domestique back in 2012 and was very consistent throughout his career at a mid-tier WT pro kind of level.

In 10th you have Jasper Ockeloen, a former Rabobank CT development rider who never lived up to expectations and topped out at the Continental Pro level, retiring from road cycling five years ago.

In 12th you have Alexey Vermeulen, still semi-active on the road but who doesn't ride a full calendar, and hasn't had a pro team since 2018. He rode a couple of years at the top level but didn't stick.

In 14th you have Jan Bakelants, a recent retiree at 37 who was once a very good WT pro but whose results had been diminishing for a few years prior to his retirement.

In 19th you have Larry Warbasse, your example of a WT pro who has been on the startlist and not won - he had flown to the US from Italy after finishing the Giro five days prior, so definitely you can't really say he prepared for the race optimally, shall we say.

That's 9 riders in the top 20 whose abilities fans of road cycling will be aware of or familiar with, and who will impact - and potentially prejudice - the esteem they hold the discipline in. After all, you're looking at a lot of riders who retired several years ago, or riders who made it to a good level but were never elite, so seeing them up among the stars of the burgeoning gravel scene will give some people a sense that it's kind of a career graveyard or a competition where journeyman pros and XCO/road also-rans can be the big fish in a small pond.

But at the same time, that might not be because it's actually the case, but because the events suit different people and because the format is still in its infancy, it's still developing its own infrastructure and its own specialists. After all, I compared it before to the Ski Classics, which have a different format to the World Cup cross-country; lots of mostly flat and rolling terrain, if there are climbs they tend to be longer and more sustained, more double poling, and much longer distances on average than you see in the World Cup; but if you look at winners of events like Vasaloppet, the pinnacle of this calendar, you see plenty of ex-World Cup skiers and veterans filling the front of the field, because the less dependency on fast twitch fibres, the longer an older athlete can stay competitive, and the peak years of endurance athletes tend to be later than the peak years of athletes in more explosive disciplines as a result, so with gravel relying a lot more on endurance than comparable CX and road formats it is perhaps less surprising to see older athletes succeeding in it.

Likewise sportscar racing, where you can find ex-F1 and Indycar drivers being competitive well into their 40s at Le Mans, as experience in car management and discipline becomes more essential than raw pace; it's the combination of speed and safe speed that is more important, and so many drivers who are elite F1 drivers but who have an aggressive driving style full of corrections and minuscule adjustments will not adapt as well as drivers who were less elite in F1 but have smoother steering and style that places less stress on the car; it's two different styles of racing, and being good at one will give you a leg up to being good at the other, but is not the be all and end all. I see gravel and road cycling as being similar in this respect.

I suspect the problem at the moment is that there is very little by way of recognition to attract young pro riders to gravel as a format of choice; until there are sufficient places where professional riders - not hobbyists and independents - select gravel as their preferred format and can make enough money in it for it to be a viable alternative to XCO and road, then you will always see the likes of Keegan Swenson as outliers; if the discipline is largely drawing its better known names from other disciplines, then those comparisons of the performance levels of riders - regardless of how fair or unfair they may be - based on their performances in those other disciplines will always be a hindrance.
 
You're right, it wasn't SBT gravel, where Keegan averaged 23.8mph solo for most of it and ran slicks without crashing. On this course he averaged 20.8 and couldn't stay upright.

And get this, Leadville is a MTB race. I kid you not. So probably not a good measuring stick for a gravel course.

To the original point that roadies are only dominating because there is something wrong and unamerican with the course, be it too short or too untechnical --- that's a weird coping strategy. These road guys have insane handling skills and endurance. The gap would only be bigger the longer and "harder" you make the course.
And this explains why every WT pro who entered Unbound has won...no wait...
 
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I'm not the one trying to compare apples to oranges in order to win the internet.
Where is the comparison? Worlds was raced harder, with a stacked field. Power numbers don’t lie. And most of those riders are used to harder courses. Mohoric for example often trains on mtb in the Slovenian little hills called the alps. Wva has eaten more mud than Kansas has on offer.
 
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Where is the comparison? Worlds was raced harder, with a stacked field. Power numbers don’t lie. And most of those riders are used to harder courses. Mohoric for example often trains on mtb in the Slovenian little hills called the alps. Wva has eaten more mud than Kansas has on offer.
Power numbers of an individual mean nothing without knowing the w/kg and Strava Weighted Power is a gimmick algorithm and is not equatable to Strava Normalized Power. Comparing these two unconnected data points from two different races in an attempt to determine which race was harder is comical. Hire a coach. They may teach you a thing or two.
 
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The problem is that you are going to see people scout through the results of these races, and see names that they recognise, and whose performance levels they know, and extrapolate from that.

For example, looking at Unbound this year, obviously Swenson won it, but then you see Petr Vakoč in 2nd - 8 years as a pro with 5 at the WT level, but whose level never rebounded after his 2018 injuries.

You have Lachlan Morton 3rd, somebody who has been around the pro scene for a decade and whose best year was actually with Jelly Belly, largely topping out as a domestique at the top level.

You have Laurens ten Dam 4th, a 42-year-old who has been retired as a road pro for four years and whose results had been tending downward for a few years prior to that.

Ian Boswell is 5th, also road retired for four years, but a decade younger, somebody who also topped out at WT domestique kind of level.

Peter Stetina is in 7th, likewise retired from road in 2019, was a very good mountain domestique back in 2012 and was very consistent throughout his career at a mid-tier WT pro kind of level.

In 10th you have Jasper Ockeloen, a former Rabobank CT development rider who never lived up to expectations and topped out at the Continental Pro level, retiring from road cycling five years ago.

In 12th you have Alexey Vermeulen, still semi-active on the road but who doesn't ride a full calendar, and hasn't had a pro team since 2018. He rode a couple of years at the top level but didn't stick.

In 14th you have Jan Bakelants, a recent retiree at 37 who was once a very good WT pro but whose results had been diminishing for a few years prior to his retirement.

In 19th you have Larry Warbasse, your example of a WT pro who has been on the startlist and not won - he had flown to the US from Italy after finishing the Giro five days prior, so definitely you can't really say he prepared for the race optimally, shall we say.

That's 9 riders in the top 20 whose abilities fans of road cycling will be aware of or familiar with, and who will impact - and potentially prejudice - the esteem they hold the discipline in. After all, you're looking at a lot of riders who retired several years ago, or riders who made it to a good level but were never elite, so seeing them up among the stars of the burgeoning gravel scene will give some people a sense that it's kind of a career graveyard or a competition where journeyman pros and XCO/road also-rans can be the big fish in a small pond.

But at the same time, that might not be because it's actually the case, but because the events suit different people and because the format is still in its infancy, it's still developing its own infrastructure and its own specialists. After all, I compared it before to the Ski Classics, which have a different format to the World Cup cross-country; lots of mostly flat and rolling terrain, if there are climbs they tend to be longer and more sustained, more double poling, and much longer distances on average than you see in the World Cup; but if you look at winners of events like Vasaloppet, the pinnacle of this calendar, you see plenty of ex-World Cup skiers and veterans filling the front of the field, because the less dependency on fast twitch fibres, the longer an older athlete can stay competitive, and the peak years of endurance athletes tend to be later than the peak years of athletes in more explosive disciplines as a result, so with gravel relying a lot more on endurance than comparable CX and road formats it is perhaps less surprising to see older athletes succeeding in it.

Likewise sportscar racing, where you can find ex-F1 and Indycar drivers being competitive well into their 40s at Le Mans, as experience in car management and discipline becomes more essential than raw pace; it's the combination of speed and safe speed that is more important, and so many drivers who are elite F1 drivers but who have an aggressive driving style full of corrections and minuscule adjustments will not adapt as well as drivers who were less elite in F1 but have smoother steering and style that places less stress on the car; it's two different styles of racing, and being good at one will give you a leg up to being good at the other, but is not the be all and end all. I see gravel and road cycling as being similar in this respect.

I suspect the problem at the moment is that there is very little by way of recognition to attract young pro riders to gravel as a format of choice; until there are sufficient places where professional riders - not hobbyists and independents - select gravel as their preferred format and can make enough money in it for it to be a viable alternative to XCO and road, then you will always see the likes of Keegan Swenson as outliers; if the discipline is largely drawing its better known names from other disciplines, then those comparisons of the performance levels of riders - regardless of how fair or unfair they may be - based on their performances in those other disciplines will always be a hindrance.
Per usual, you provide a wealth of information and salient points.

What I will say is that there are several "hobbists and independents" making much more racing here, than many WT pros. Gravel in the US has already supplanted XCO and road (which was not a monumental task). I think the advent of income via social media has changed the game for gravel in a very good way.
 
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Yeah very smart to plan Unbound in the US in a part of the season literally no good WT rider will take the time to prepare for it.

All the 'proof' you cite is that a mid level WT pro with a jet lag as preparation hasn't won it.
...yet, no WT pro who has entered has won. What can I tell you? And clearly, you don't know the history of Unbound (formerly Dirty Kanza)...they didn't create the race for anyone in particular...that first year (2006), less than 40 people did it...I don't think they worried about checking the WT to make sure Euro Pros couldn't ride...:rolleyes:
 
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Power numbers of an individual mean nothing without knowing the w/kg and Strava Weighted Power is a gimmick algorithm and is not equatable to Strava Normalized Power. Comparing these two unconnected data points from two different races in an attempt to determine which race was harder is comical. Hire a coach. They may teach you a thing or two.
What does your coach say?
That power numbers are meaningless? Both average and normalized power are higher for all riders in the Worlds.

Still, feel very free to provide me with any data / arguments about what exactly you were trying to say. There is something that nobody knows but you, that is out there. Something about mythical US races and mythical US riders and 'no comparison'.

You want to 'believe' (the Religion of confirmation bias) there are harder races out there. Sure there are harder parcours possible. But this was raced hard and as far as world's go, the winner is the best in the world and it's clear it's a seasoned pro tour rider, because the parcours was, based on the power numbers, harder than the average 1.1 road race, and harder raced than any of the US gravel races.
So in other words, guys like Mohoric / WvA would win anywhere if the parcours is selective enough (not like last year where tactics played a role and the parcours was almost pan flat).
 
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...and yeah, I'll admit that you took our Mountain Biking from us, and turned that into groomed stadium events, and began crushing our measley little riders into powder (though I'm pretty sure those early euro MTB pros were using the same preparation as Riis, but I digress. We've never really forgiven you for taking that from us, and now you want to take our gravel (well, you just want the finer gravel...I didn't see a baby head anywhere on that course Saturday, but I've dodged them in many races here...maybe an MTB is better on some days). If you're going to take our gravel, then take it the way it was best to be taken...9000'+ and 150 to 200 miles (an use feet and miles...it's the way gravel races should be measured). <some of this was tongue and cheek...apparently, that translates badly to non-English speakers...fair enough)
 
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What does your coach say?
That power numbers are meaningless? Both average and normalized power are higher for all riders in the Worlds.

Still, feel very free to provide me with any data / arguments about what exactly you were trying to say. There is something that nobody knows but you, that is out there. Something about mythical US races and mythical US riders and 'no comparison'.

You want to 'believe' (the Religion of confirmation bias) there are harder races out there. Sure there are harder parcours possible. But this was raced hard and as far as world's go, the winner is the best in the world and it's clear it's a seasoned pro tour rider, because the parcours was, based on the power numbers, harder than the average 1.1 road race, and harder raced than any of the US gravel races.
So in other words, guys like Mohoric / WvA would win anywhere if the parcours is selective enough (not like last year where tactics played a role and the parcours was almost pan flat).
The funny thing here is that you are trying to argue with two people about two different topics at once in one post and I am only involved in one of the discussions. 🤡
 
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And this explains why every WT pro who entered Unbound has won...no wait...
...yet, no WT pro who has entered has won. What can I tell you? And clearly, you don't know the history of Unbound (formerly Dirty Kanza)...they didn't create the race for anyone in particular...that first year (2006), less than 40 people did it...I don't think they worried about checking the WT to make sure Euro Pros couldn't ride...:rolleyes:
What is your actual definition of "WT pro"? If you mean someone with an active contract with a WT team then the only "WT pro" entrant in 2023 was Larry Warbasse, 629th on PCS points for the last 12 months.

If you mean "has ever had a contract with a WT team" then you have Ian Boswell winning once and Ted King twice. Another roadie/winner Ivar Slik never actually made it to the WT, topping out at PCT, but I guess that's because the WT isn't hard enough for him.
 
Maybe Steamboat or Emporia will host Worlds one day, time will tell. It's useless bantering imho is 160k there harder than in Italy or Belgium or Down Under or in Scotland. They are different routes but equal for everyone. Top roadies have practical way to deal with this. If rr worlds or one day race or stage race doesn't suit for them somehow, they are pretty realistic with that. Sam Bennet to the Liege, or Basque Tour, yes..or Sepp Kuss to the full Roubaix.

On the other hand there is something to discuss, is the spirit of gravel like 200k minimum preferably 300 and more, is it really that much ultra marathonesque stuff, really? MSR yes but but..
 
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