I finally watched the "coverage" once I actually found it and as a bike rider and racer I have to say that the speeds they were going on the descents on goat trails of varying surface was far more terrifying than all the baby heads in the world.
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I think the social media side of things definitely helps gravel, but it does have the impact that it's more seen as something to experience than something to watch in the way that you would a road race or a cyclocross race. But we shall see how things develop in that respect, since the discipline is in its infancy as a pro discipline (although it's worth mentioning that though I would agree it's quite likely some of those early Euro MTB specialists who started beating the Americans in the early 90s were to be discussed elsewhere in the forum, it's also true that testing has been lax or minimal at many gravel events and I think that's part of why the UCI has tailored their events the way they have as mentioned earlier.
The other aspect of what I suspect the UCI may be doing with gravel is more to do with - hear me out here - sportscar racing.
You see, most people would agree that the most prestigious motorsport format is Formula 1. I personally have many problems with that, but by and large, other than drivers who start out specifically as oval or off-road racers, F1 is the dream for most young drivers. I compared the skillsets of F1 and sportscars earlier and it is true that a large percentage of the F1 grid would be elite in sportscars too. But most of the time, active F1 racers don't go to Le Mans, and if they do it's midfield runners or tailenders, especially those on borrowed time in their seats, like Franck Montagny in 2007 or Sébastien Bourdais in 2009. For the most part, active F1 drivers don't need to go to Le Mans, it just gets in the way of their goals.
But there's only 20 or so seats in F1, and there are, what, 159 seats available at Le Mans? 53 cars with 3 drivers each. Now filter that down to around 125 once you take out the gentleman drivers and hobbyists in the Pro-Am cars, but it's still a larger number of opportunities. Many older ex-F1 drivers and those who never made it fill those seats, but also quite a few young prospects trying to build experience in case their F1 dream doesn't succeed - but also a lot of solid drivers who are good enough to be pros, but not good enough to make it up to F1. Gravel cycling is kind of in a similar position to sportscar racing in that respect; the very top elite riders in the disciplines that make the most money aren't entering gravel races, the only time you see active WT pros in gravel are journeymen - but you will see a lot of ex-WT pros, some young riders trying out different disciplines to find one that suits them, and a lot of people straddling the pro-am boundaries where they can probably make a better living from it than they can as a domestic pro in the Continental scene of .1 and .2 races.
The problem is that when it comes to the converts from road, you're playing with people a bit further down the pecking order, so to speak, because there's far more riders at the WT level than there are drivers at the F1 level in my comparison. And the other problem is that Le Mans has over 100 years of history so its prestige is at least recognised, even if the average man in the street has much more chance of knowing who Jacques Villeneuve is than who Tom Kristensen is. Gravel is still establishing its own character and history and so winning these events doesn't confer the same status and prestige to the casual fanbase as a win at Le Mans does on a racing driver.
The other side is, I believe that the UCI's vision of gravel is more like the Daytona 24h than the Le Mans 24h. Daytona is something of an oddity in the motorsports calendar, it's part of the Grand Am series (or whatever it's called now) but is oddly separate from it. The event has much more lax rules on repairs, lap completion, driver shifts and drivers per car than Le Mans. In fact, one year, the winning car had no fewer than 7 drivers, because they allow 4 per car (as opposed to 3 in Le Mans and the other WEC events), but also they allow substitutions for drivers who haven't participated so when the team's other car crashed out early, three of its four drivers who hadn't entered the race yet joined the car's driver lineup. It's a nice touch, that everybody got to participate, but it also does devalue the endurance when, while the car still had to last 24 hours, the drivers were only doing an average of 3 and a half hours each, as opposed to 6 for other teams in the same race, or 8 at Le Mans.
But, as a result of this and its position on the calendar (right at the start of the season), the Daytona 24h has become something of a festival atmosphere, with a large number of superstar NASCAR and Indycar drivers moonlighting in the teams as one-offs, and increasing star power, but at the expense that it doesn't have the same feeling of a 'true' endurance event and is viewed as significantly less prestigious than Le Mans where most of the biggest teams have well established 'factory' lineups and this type of moonlighting bonus star is a rarity (even Fernando Alonso in the Toyota did a whole season of racing, the last real notable one would probably be Nico Hülkenberg in the Porsche) - and a lot of the fans that come to watch it come to see the guest drivers as much, if not more than, the regular Grand Am field who will be duking it out the rest of the season in these vehicles.
Likewise I think the UCI has this idea of the Gravel World Championships as a sort of season-end (summer disciplines)/season-start (cross) multi-discipline festival where they deliver something that offers a bit for the roadie, a bit for the crosser, a bit for the MTB specialist, and they can all get together and duke it out a bit - so they don't want it to be a proper 300km endurance slugfest dominated by riders that the general public haven't heard of, that they themselves have not marketed, and that they have very little by way of drug testing info on. They would much rather it be simplified enough that they can sell it to the public via races (look guys, it's like Strade Bianche or Tro Bro Léon, but more so!) and faces they are already familiar with. And who are those faces? Why, the people that win the races in the more established disciplines of course!
But as long as the format is not priority #1 for those riders, they aren't going to be enticed to do what you would perceive as a 'proper' gravel course in terms of the distance, because that would require more specialised training, much as back in the day things like Bordeaux-Paris required specialist training. And of course the UCI has shown from other disciplines that it is all about trying to get shorter and more explosive races to make things more easily televised, and easier to follow for the novice fan (because pretty much everybody in the audience is a novice fan to this as a TV discipline) so you get these courses that are shorter and designed to be more explosive. I don't think it's so much about these courses being 'easier', just different.
The lifetime series has testing at every race and a quick look at USADA shows that Keegan Swenson has been tested out of competition 8 times so far in 2023. Not on par with WT road pros but it isn't as lax as many people think.
What is your definition of Unbound? 2023? Because you might want to check the startlist of previous years. Do your own heavy lifting, but I think you'll find more names than Warbasse...
Retired former WT pro's seem to do well at US gravel races, well enough that I don't think it's a leap to assume that the current pro's wouldn't mop up at whatever US gravel race their employers would be willing to give them 2 weeks off from their day jobs to fly half way around the world to compete in. There is a good reason Pogacar, Roglic, Vingegaard, Van der Poel etal. don't rock up to the start of Unbound or whatever and it ain't because they are afraid of the competion. There are 2 kinds of WT pro's those who are paid to win GT's or shorter stage races or stages in those or classics semi classics- anything that adds UCI points and those that are paid to help them. Well and then there's Pidcock, hell half you guys give Van Aert, Van der Poel and Pidcock a hard enough time for taking off to ride the other races that they like as it is. We won't see current WT pro's winning american style gravel races until they move them to Europe.
Nothing will convince me of that either, it just hasn't happened...which gives me plausable deniability to make the points I'm making, which may or may not be deeply held beliefs. But when some dude is lecturing me because I posted a video of dudes getting space launched by bulls, and I indicated it wasn't a real gravel race unless that happens, I refuse to take any of this sh!t seriously. Party on Garth. (I just found out that Mike Myers is a total d0uchgebag...he has a man carry a small container of chocolates, who must bring them to him when he demands)
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Your post was so much shorter than mine. My post had many more syllables, and one mentioned goat heads. Your post is much more Euro style.So? Trolling then,eh.
EDIT: I mean, Hugh, I am much older and wiser than I was in the early days of this forum...but I'm still me. Remember that time that dude threatened to kill me and sexually assault my wife, for saying Lance was doping...man, this place is freaking a wasteland of boredom compared to those days...
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Sure, I watched the WT this year, and I still love watching...but I loved each and every gravel event I rode, more. I love each and every ride I do, more. I also am more drawn to some of the weak a$$ed, washed up, hasbeen, also ran, donkey guys who are racing the US gravel scene. I honestly think if Pidcock (big Pidcock fan) were 4% less talented, he would do well to skip the WT and race here, and I'd love to see it...alas, I have to suffer through boring sh!t like every single cyclocross race I can find online, and stupid sh!t like Spring Classics. <if you have to call out the sarcasm, is it really good sarcasm?> Genuinely, I enjoyed every other race I watched this year, more than the Giro, Tour, and Vuelta, combined. GT's are freaking boring.
It was good times for sure. "Well your guy dopes more than my guy" doesn't hold a candle to the pure blind man love that some posters held for the Uniballer.
Could someone please provide a brief synopsis? No way I waste 39 minutes of my waning life for this.
The video has time markers. The discussion on road vs gravel riders is only 8 min long. They're half joking about the spirit of gravel, but they say that dedicated training camps, a season of 60-70 days of racing and team support put WT pros in better conditions than gravel riders can ever achieve training alone and doing 15-20 races. Do gravel riders go on altitude training camps? They probably spend their time drinking beer, cause you know, that's the spirit of gravel (their joke, not mine)
I didn't watch it, I just assumed that since GCN did a brief video, the issue has been addressed, and put to bed...you know, because they're known for their thoroughness and depth of content.
active WT pros who are top 200 at the time of the start? none, everWhat is your definition of Unbound? 2023? Because you might want to check the startlist of previous years. Do your own heavy lifting, but I think you'll find more names than Warbasse...
See, this is the quality content that this place is sorely in need of (and that I am guilty of not providing). I think spot-on in many areas. I also like the comparison as I grew up around low level sports car racing, and dirt track redneck racing, and NASCAR. I also went to Le Mans in 1991 (to this day, those Sauber Mercedes' are my favorite thing on 4 wheels...well, except for the Martini psychedelic Porsche 917)...but I digress.
Anyway, for me that 1970's era of racing is kind of where I look to what has happened to every type of sproting event since that era, that being choosing winners, and the winners are the series' that can draw the most money...which does not necessarily translate to being the best racing, for me. The best race I ever watched was the 4x400 relay, in spring of 1986, between my high school track team versus Eden Morehead (our big hometown rival, and that race would decide who won the meet). It was the final leg, and our anchor was really fast (low 49 second 400), but their team had a runner just as fast, who had battled our runner all season. They were on the back stretch, maybe 210 meters from the line, and their runner had walked down our runner...and he got within 3 feet of him...and then the gap stabalized through the first part of the turn...and then the gap started to open a little, and then the gap started to open a little more, and then our runner smoked the last 100 meters, and we won! (I was a skinny distance runner, who scored mid-pack at best, but it was my team).
Now, what does that have to do with 1970's eara Le Mans? Nothing other than I am not one who goes for the most shimmering diamond. I can watch about 5 minutes of an F1 race, before I become bored to tears. I couldn't care less that the budget for a team is $1 billion dollars...For anyone to spend that much money on anything is abhorrent in some ways to me (I won't proffer political analysis based on socioeconomic models, but lets say I'm well on the sinistral side), but even abandoning the cost and revenue dynamic of F1, to me it's just a bad product. Sure, I understand why drivers want to get there, and I understand why people watch (even minus marketing that is based on psychological studies that micro target specific visuals and triggers that will draw people in), but to me, it's just sh!t racing on most days...so is NASCAR. I loved autocrossing a 1984 VW Gti, that was stripped down, maybe had some polish inside the heads that wasn't really spec for the class, a rollcage, and one seat (It was an old SCCA ITB car), more than any race I ever watched. It was so freaking fun, and I venerated the guys who were doing the same thing well, more than I have any professional driver in any series.
...this is all kind of rambling, and I started with a vague end point that was pretty hazy when I started and not grown much clearer as I sashayed my way in its direction.
Anyway, I also root for the underdog...always have. I love seeing the little guy throw a rock in the big guy's eye. I love when some dude from Colorado, takes out a sprint in a break-away as a stagiaire in a major race...just don't let that dude become Lance Armstrong. I love Wout van Aert...because he hasn't won the big one yet...but don't let him win a string of 3. In some ways, I'm not going to choose a coherent dynamic to channel my fandom...I work on the fly.
That brings me back to gravel...give me a race that has elements that can allow David to find that stone, and you have my interest. Otherwise, I will grow tired of Jumbo Visma cycling...as many will. But if you take gravel, market the sh!t out of it, and put it in a climate controlled arena, I'll go watch a local BMX race, inseted. And you're right, that is just where the UCI wants to take gravel...then again, the UCI has been governed by a$$holes for awhile, so quelle surprise there. It's about the Benjamins...which is why 65% of this world is slickly marketed Goliaths, that deserve an eye divot.
Yay Keegan Swenson!!
My favorite racing video from the year:
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By that logic Vingo should win Outbound by at least 47 minutes. 🙄
Throughout this debate one common theme that some like to dismiss is the amount of money that the top gravel racers are making in the US. A good buddy of mine is Keegan Swenson's personal mechanic (for races) and also does the wrenching for the Santa Cruz HTSquad when they race as a team. He gets paid (as a mechanic) more $ than 80% of road pros on PCT teams. Keegan would and has laughed at WT contracts. Just saying.
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Dylan freaking Johnson probably makes more than 50% of them, and he's top 10 or top 20 almost every race. (Granted, he gets social media revenue and coaches). Smart and funny goes a long way on social media, just ask Melvin Capital.
I still don't get the point you're trying to make (monkey in space and manick guy named Jack):
We all agree US gravel races are fun, we all agree guys like WvA and MvdP would smash any race.
So we agree. Just tell us from the beginning what you accept (or better: don't accept) as reality (that pro tour riders would take over any random US gravel race, if they wanted), and what you want reality to be (heroic wins by Keegan Swenson in mud 3-feet deep after a 300 mile race because those euro pro boys weren't man enough).
Reality and phantasy of what reality should be are different things in your minds, that's very obvious. But as said, most people cheer for the underdog, the lone breakaway rider, they value the smaller races for the connoisseurs, the cat. 1.2 races in France that are won by French who make surprisingly good money on teams with stupid French sponsors that pay way too much for overvalued riders... Just like that Keegan Swenson guy that gets paid well because he is in the center of the gravel hype. Just like Belgian top 10 CX riders who make more money than 90% of proCT riders and gravel riders. Japanese Keirin riders who live in separate houses / schools with other keirin riders in a strict regime of training.
All those niches are valued, and we all love a good race between homeboys / traditional heroes of the sport and the so-called superstars, where the homeboys win because they have particular experience in the sport.
But don't you ever think that, in a sport as brutally honest as cycling, the odds favour any of those hidden niche riders, be it in Japanese Keirin, Belgian CX or US gravel. The local heroes are just that: local, and dreams of keirin fans were smashed the moment Theo Bos competed, Belgian CX is dominated by a tridente but mainly MvdP and US gravel will soon be conquered by any good pro who has a good incentive (money or too much time on hands) to ride one of those for real.
The odd exception may still happen, but the general consensus is that riders make the race, and while absentees are always wrong and winners are always right, there is simply no way to debate chances of current top 10 US gravel riders vs. pro tour pros without resorting to vague arguments and ignoring the numbers.
We all agree US gravel races are fun, we all agree guys like WvA and MvdP would smash any race.
So we agree. Just tell us from the beginning what you accept (or better: don't accept) as reality (that pro tour riders would take over any random US gravel race, if they wanted), and what you want reality to be (heroic wins by Keegan Swenson in mud 3-feet deep after a 300 mile race because those euro pro boys weren't man enough).
Reality and phantasy of what reality should be are different things in your minds, that's very obvious. But as said, most people cheer for the underdog, the lone breakaway rider, they value the smaller races for the connoisseurs, the cat. 1.2 races in France that are won by French who make surprisingly good money on teams with stupid French sponsors that pay way too much for overvalued riders... Just like that Keegan Swenson guy that gets paid well because he is in the center of the gravel hype. Just like Belgian top 10 CX riders who make more money than 90% of proCT riders and gravel riders. Japanese Keirin riders who live in separate houses / schools with other keirin riders in a strict regime of training.
All those niches are valued, and we all love a good race between homeboys / traditional heroes of the sport and the so-called superstars, where the homeboys win because they have particular experience in the sport.
But don't you ever think that, in a sport as brutally honest as cycling, the odds favour any of those hidden niche riders, be it in Japanese Keirin, Belgian CX or US gravel. The local heroes are just that: local, and dreams of keirin fans were smashed the moment Theo Bos competed, Belgian CX is dominated by a tridente but mainly MvdP and US gravel will soon be conquered by any good pro who has a good incentive (money or too much time on hands) to ride one of those for real.
The odd exception may still happen, but the general consensus is that riders make the race, and while absentees are always wrong and winners are always right, there is simply no way to debate chances of current top 10 US gravel riders vs. pro tour pros without resorting to vague arguments and ignoring the numbers.
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