UCI helped Froome with illegal(?) TUE at Romandie

[blackcat]

Most interesting. That would be another parallel to US Postal.

Would honestly like to know how often Zorzoli/UCI provides backdated TUEs to cover up trouble. I would suspect it has historically been not uncommon, given that we know of a couple that made it into the public domain.

well, how common is not uncommon? So, are we, and yes, i appreciate credibility here, thinking Froome may have passed a non-negative for corticoids in one of the WADA national domains, or a race?

As I said, potential, i recognise validity. It is the UCI afterall

 

[blackcat]

Have you seen the actual requirements for the TUE?

It's a lot more stringent than a cough. They want medical records and peak flow readings.

I don't believe he would have provided all of that in the timescales and the fact he wasn't actually sick.

but these requirements, this threshold, you are positing it would deny TUE in-competition. But TUEs are most common, when in competition, not out of competition. There may be a good reason why a TUE is more likely to be in competition, and not out of competition.

But your position is the threshold is too high and unlikely to be achieved, but the record shows otherwise, no?

 

[thehog]

but these requirements, this threshold, you are positing it would deny TUE in-competition. But TUEs are most common, when in competition, not out of competition. There may be a good reason why a TUE is more likely to be in competition, and not out of competition.

But your position is the threshold is too high and unlikely to be achieved, but the record shows otherwise, no?

Nothing to do with threshold. More so providing medical proof in documentation form of an on-going or sudden health condition.

Asthma is common. The TUE process has its own section on this condition alone.

Applying for a emergency TUE appears somewhat easier than the regular TUE - poor Ulissi in this circumstance who had a regular approved TUE but went over his limit.

In Froome's case there is a reasonable amount of documentation that would have been required to provide to grant his TUE. My suspicion this was not provided. But we'll never know.

The "Doctor" who Froome can't remember would have had to supply all of this prior to approval. I suspect it was just a phone call and a quick fax.

 

[Hawkwood]

Have you seen the actual requirements for the TUE?

It's a lot more stringent than a cough. They want medical records and peak flow readings.

I don't believe he would have provided all of that in the timescales and the fact he wasn't actually sick.

Which is why I posted that a cough wouldn't do it. Plus I posted that peak flow and other information would be required, I even spelt out what diagnostic information would normally be required, and I took this from the BNF.

 

[Hawkwood]

Sorry, I didn't pick up on the irony.

Funnily enough I can completely see why if you would take your own pillows, specially if you've got asthmatics on your team.

 

[thehog]

Which is why I posted that a cough wouldn't do it. Plus I posted that peak flow and other information would be required, I even spelt out what diagnostic information would normally be required, and I took this from the BNF.

I was actually agreeing with you on this point. Apologies. I wrote a little quickly in between train stops

 

[Hawkwood]

Right. This stuff about the British National Formulary, while interesting, wouldn't come into play. We're talking about sports doctors who work for a team making "diagnoses" for professional athletes. It's not the same as a regular doctor/patient deal. It's going to be about working within the rules, or stretching the rules a bit to maximize performance.

Interesting point, I did point out that the doctors would probably have used the BNF of whatever formulary was applicable to where they came from, or were working, they can't just make stuff up. Anyhow I think the the amount of prednisolone prescribed for Froome was the same as the dosage set out in the BNF.

 

[Hawkwood]

I was actually agreeing with you on this point. Apologies. I wrote a little quickly in between train stops

You should say my private jet ran into turbulance...

 

[MacRoadie]

they can't just make stuff up...

In professional cycling? Nope, would never happen.

 

[Hawkwood]

In professional cycling? Nope, would never happen.

As in make up diagnostic indicators, dosages etc.

 

[thehog]

You should say my private jet ran into turbulance...

True! Ha!

I guess the irony in all of this is a week prior to inhaler/TUE-gate was Froome (Cound) were tweeting for more testing in Tenerife.

I guess it was all part of the strategy to demonstrate just now "clean" Froome was prior to the Tour... except he wasn't.

Contador knows better than making BS statements like the Frounds do.

Unbelievable.

 

[red_flanders]

Most interesting. That would be another parallel to US Postal.

Would honestly like to know how often Zorzoli/UCI provides backdated TUEs to cover up trouble. I would suspect it has historically been not uncommon, given that we know of a couple that made it into the public domain.

Right. This stuff about the British National Formulary, while interesting, wouldn't come into play. We're talking about sports doctors who work for a team making "diagnoses" for professional athletes. It's not the same as a regular doctor/patient deal. It's going to be about working within the rules, or stretching the rules a bit to maximize performance.

Or ignoring them altogether which has all too frequently been the base operating mode.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Or ignoring them altogether which has all too frequently been the base operating mode.

It's not quite ignoring them. It's artfully interpreting them.

If you are at or near Cookson's level, the personalities seem to have mastered the intricacies of the countless rules such that the UCI, technically, is above reproach when issuing TUE's to the most visible squad in cycling. We saw the same thing with Verbruggen and McQuaid.

 

[red_flanders]

As in make up diagnostic indicators, dosages etc.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic. Are you suggesting those can't be made up? I don't see why not.

This goes to the very issue of the "One man TUE committee (OMTC?)" that is/was Zorzoli. A team doctor could send in some fairly BS notes on a rider's condition and have one person view and approve. Much harder to falsify if you have 3, as presumably it's harder to corrupt 3 people than 1.

 

[blackcat]

Nothing to do with threshold. More so providing medical proof in documentation form of an on-going or sudden health condition.

Asthma is common. The TUE process has its own section on this condition alone.

Applying for a emergency TUE appears somewhat easier than the regular TUE - poor Ulissi in this circumstance who had a regular approved TUE but went over his limit.

In Froome's case there is a reasonable amount of documentation that would have been required to provide to grant his TUE. My suspicion this was not provided. But we'll never know.

The "Doctor" who Froome can't remember would have had to supply all of this prior to approval. I suspect it was just a phone call and a quick fax.

"sudden" ? is this the salient adjective?

an in race TUE, would to me, intimate, that the medical seriousness is in terms of a pro athlete. Not in the emergency ward at the local hospital

 

[DirtyWorks]

presumably it's harder to corrupt 3 people than 1.

The lawyers working both sides of arbitration on different cases at CAS while working for the sports federations at the same time agree.

They'll find their medical experts keen to work for Olympic sports for a long, long time.

 

[Hawkwood]

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic. Are you suggesting those can't be made up? I don't see why not.

This goes to the very issue of the "One man TUE committee (OMTC?)" that is/was Zorzoli. A team doctor could send in some fairly BS notes on a rider's condition and have one person view and approve. Much harder to falsify if you have 3, as presumably it's harder to corrupt 3 people than 1.

Not trying to be sarcastic, I think we're just coming at this from different angles. What I'm getting at is there are specific doses for specific conditions as laid down in manufacturer guidelines and various formularies. Hence in theory a doctor can't make up that the dose of prednisolone for asthma is 200 mg a day, when it's actually 40-50mg. Likewise the key diagnostic indicators for asthma are going to be reasonably similar no matter where you are, i.e. a peak flow of x% of maximum or predicted is going to equal y severity of asthma attack. But of course a doctor might fiddle the diagnosis and dosage.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Not trying to be sarcastic, I think we're just coming at this from different angles. What I'm getting at is there are specific doses for specific conditions as laid down in manufacturer guidelines and various formularies. Hence in theory a doctor can't make up that the dose of prednisolone for asthma is 200 mg a day, when it's actually 40-50mg. Likewise the key diagnostic indicators for asthma are going to be reasonably similar no matter where you are, i.e. a peak flow of x% of maximum or predicted is going to equal y severity of asthma attack. But of course a doctor might fiddle the diagnosis and dosage.

They'd need a spirometer handy to measure that yeah?

 

[Hawkwood]

They'd need a spirometer handy to measure that yeah?

They could use a peak flow meter, but a spirometer is better. I think WADA states that a spirometer is prefered. I'm having a proper asthma check up tomorrow so it will be interesting to see if anything is new.

 

[blackcat]

They'd need a spirometer handy to measure that yeah?

but if we are assuming the entire peloton is on the bread and water, yeah. but its getting a little silly, picking on one our two of our inverted favourite riders, cos its not just the winner, its nigh all. so its a little silly yeah.

ofcourse froome is on it, michelle is prolly the enabler, and psuedo motowoman, but it is not like they are unique in the peloton. we have many edita rumsaseseseseses, so it gets absurd to throw a dart at the dartboard, and say, yeah, top spot, podium, paris.

however, froome et al, are their worst enemies, it would be good if they could offer something diplomatic, offering a nod and wink to those that hate the doping in the sport, whilst maintainging a semblance of a status they can sell to the rubes and consumers of the sport.

i dont wanna hear "i do not know what i could do to be any cleaner", ignoring the logic flaw there. Those inside the peloton know how the game is played, some outsiders know, and they feel they are consumers when they watch the show in july, so dont spit in their face. something diplomatic. tell Walsh and Kimmage something off the record.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

It's cynical, no question, but why do I doubt they had any sort of flow meter available to test a rider before submitting a TUE request to the UCI for steroids.

 

[Hawkwood]

It's cynical, no question, but why do I doubt they had any sort of flow meter available to test a rider before submitting a TUE request to the UCI for steroids.

I'd guess that a simple peak flow meter would be standard kit for most doctors, plus they're cheap. Spirometers are more expensive, but saying that you can buy one for £50, probably not a high quality accurate one. If I was younger and racing I might be tempted to buy one to monitor my asthma more accurately. I do have a cheap Vitalograph peak flow meter on which my peak flow is 600 at the moment.

 

[red_flanders]

Not trying to be sarcastic, I think we're just coming at this from different angles. What I'm getting at is there are specific doses for specific conditions as laid down in manufacturer guidelines and various formularies. Hence in theory a doctor can't make up that the dose of prednisolone for asthma is 200 mg a day, when it's actually 40-50mg. Likewise the key diagnostic indicators for asthma are going to be reasonably similar no matter where you are, i.e. a peak flow of x% of maximum or predicted is going to equal y severity of asthma attack. But of course a doctor might fiddle the diagnosis and dosage.

Thanks Hawkwood.

 

[Hawkwood]

Thanks Hawkwood.

Or in other words, if you want to make stuff up for a TUE you need to know what asthma looks like, plus what a normal dosage of x drug would be, just to make things look more legitimate on the form.

 

[DirtyWorks]

It's cynical, no question, but why do I doubt they had any sort of flow meter available to test a rider before submitting a TUE request to the UCI for steroids.

The more one tries to fill in the logistical improbabilities, the story just gets less plausible. That's why I love that "5 illnesses of a super hero" story.