UCI: Italian Giro top favourite will be Bio-pass exposed in hours

[Galic Ho]

Absurd, even for you.

Fair enough on the Evans part but Menchov was holding back. Try coming up with an argument that ignores the drug suspicions around Austria at the time. Dennis was scared ****less. Maybe if Franco had used his brain and toned it down he would not have been caught. To a lesser degree like Carlos. Cadel? He was just convenient to place there becuase a lot is expected and nothing was delivered which for him is very strange. More than believable in the Clinic. Come back soon and read the threads. They'll really take off this time of year.

Pellizotti could have held back and it is more than plausible he would still be racing this years Giro if he did. It is more than plausible his blood values were out of whack because he tried to do too much and pushed the barriers to hard. I used the example of Menchov, Sastre and Evans because more than enough people in the Clinic suspect they use, like all the top GC boys and because their performances dropped between May/June 2009 and July 2009 by considerable margins. Franco looked like he could have maybe gotten into the top 10 at the Tour if he had not deliberately lost time to chase the KOM. A more than expected plan considering the team had two fresh GC riders in Nibali and Kreuziger.

The contrast is Pellizotti's performances did not drop and he has been caught with dodgy blood values. It has been floated numerous times since last July that certain riders performances were not at their usual standard because they were scared of being caught. Contrary to popular belief there were numerous PED investigations occuring at the time and many riders were feeling the heat. Especially one Dennis Menchov.

How many more blanks do you want me to fill? Use your brain next time and think FFS. This type of post is really beginning to get irritating. I can understand now why Python was annoyed. Some people just don't keep up to date on what is being said and proposed. Better yet, put forward a reason why we should believe Cadel, Sastre and Menchov are any cleaner than Pellizotti. Take a look at this months Giro starting tomorrow. Do you think Vino is clean? Two of those guys will be right next to him for three weeks. Stop deluding yourself and if you cannot, leave it out of the Clinic.

 

[Galic Ho]

So Cadel Evans is a doper or just not good enough. Which is it Galic Ho? You seem to be perfectly hedged.

I don't know. I tried coming up with an explanation last year and had none. I left it in 2009. You tell me why he flopped last year. Better yet go back to last year and read all the threads. This was covered in depth on these forums. Nobody had a solid answer. The most likely answer covered a great deal of things.

1. He was sick but too proud to tell anyone. Admirable
2. His team dynamics were all but decimated mid tour after Mark Coucke opened his mouth and blabbed to the press. Cadel mentally disintergrates and his performance flops.
3. He messed up his program. Not likely.

It was more than likely a combination of the first two. The degree of each is up to the reader to decide upon or ignore entirely. Your choice. Do you take these suggestions seriously? Do they offend you? If they do then you should stay clear of the clinic. I', just warning you. You'll hear much worse than my opinion on here. All that I posted in the last two pages isn't covering anything new. This is all old news mentioned dozens of times in threads last year. The other two people who have objected all played the person and not the points. They are both Cadel fans. Cadel is not immune from speculation in the Clinic guys...if this bother you then deal with it and provide a counter argument not some stuff like:

Absurd, even for you.

Reason and some counter point perhaps next time? That is how one debates. In a proper debate I'd have just won. Don't make it that easy for me. I like debating. I was on the debating team at school. I didn't float those suggestions as proof anyone doped. I floated the ideas to explain why Pellizotti has been caught. It is just speculation right now, nothing more. Speculation to try and answer why Pellizotti has one bad value in June and another in November. I think he used too much blood in June (really low ret count) and took too much in November (really high ret count). We'll find out soon, hopefully.

 

[biker jk]

Galic Ho. I'm not debating the issue of whether CE dopes or why he performed so poorly in last year's TdF. My focus is on your inconsistent positions on CE. We hear you constantly bagging him as a rider and also suggesting he's a doper. Could you kindly clear this up and let us know which it is? Surely if he's a doper he would have been more successful and have no reason to be so derided by you?

 

[auscyclefan94]

Galic, you make a lot of assumptions which you have no evidence what so ever. I am not going to be bothered to argue with you about the points as you twist and manipulate quotes to take them out of context.

 

[auscyclefan94]

No that is just one interpretation. It has been floated about numerous times that Menchov got scared by his involvement in the HumanBloodPlasma incident. Hence he switched off. Being tired or sick is the convenient excuse. We heard the excuse about Cadel coughing up flem but it was never confirmed. Sastre had the only obvious excuse. He was tired. Dennis could not stand up and well, Cuddles...apparently sick and in your opinion, left alone without a strong team. All the convenient excuses covered as usual.

Andorra Arcalis? That meant diddly squat. Only Brice Feillu and the Nocentini breakaway raced that stage with one GC exeption: Contador. What did Franco do after that? Breakaway on no less than three occasions. Wake up dude. If you are shocked Franco has been nabbed then you really are oblivious to the dark side of cycling. As I said. How good was he before 2008? He wasn't a GC contender that's for sure.

Did anyone here ask why it was Franco who was constantly in breakaways and managing to do well in every one? Who else did well in every one? Who else won anything of note beyond a solitary stage victory? Nobody. Oh and Franco podiumed at the Giro as well. Menchov didn't back up nearly half as well or Sastre. Pellizotti deliberately lost time so he could win the KOM. Other team mates were the GC hopefuls and not him. The remained of the peloton picked their one or two stages, tried their best and went for the win. Maybe Ill put it this way. Bernard Kohl won the 2008 KOM. Pellizotti won it last year. Juan Mauricio Soler Hernandez won it in 2007. Did they all look like they were doping during their wins? Don't answer that ACF94 it might ruin the fantasy.

How do you know that it is not true that he coughed up phlegm? I don't see why he would make an excuse up for that. Ruin the fantasy? We would hate to do it to you when you infer all top riders are doping. I don't see how his excuses were "conventional" for the time. They were just reasonings. You are very pessimistic Galic. Why would of Menchov, Sastre or Evans ridden the tour if they were "scared" of being tested?

 

[Galic Ho]

Galic Ho. I'm not debating the issue of whether CE dopes or why he performed so poorly in last year's TdF. My focus is on your inconsistent positions on CE. We hear you constantly bagging him as a rider and also suggesting he's a doper. Could you kindly clear this up and let us know which it is? Surely if he's a doper he would have been more successful and have no reason to be so derided by you?

Fair enough but I've done this before multiple times. To repeat myself once more, I'd agree with Bro Deal that all the GC competitors are using. I've suggested this about Evans before. I do not believe or have any evidence to suggest that he is so naturally gifted, that if I suspect all the others are doping or doing something to supplement their training, that Evans clean could beat them. I think he used just like Valverde and Contador (my two favourite riders) but made more errors on the road, hence his fewer wins. I have always said he is a very good rider, one of the top 5 out there. Derision? No just explaining why I think he hasn't won. I don't talk him up because I don't think that kind of pressure suits his personality. Personality is not something you can change at a whim so I don't expect anything from Cadel. His recent changes are very entertaining and he deserves all the credit for his hard work. If you want to hear someone who reall hates him I can introduce you to my mum. She cannot stand him.

Is he more of a natural talent than Pellizotti? Yes. Without a doubt because he has always been strong. He came in and set form early on. That does not mean I think he is clean. I'm not going to drag up hundreds of other posts and threads that explain why a person could think as much about Evans. Look them up. I've mentioned this plenty of times and so have others. This thread is about Pellizotti and the other 4 riders caught by the Bio-passport. Cadel has never been caught which is always a positive whether you are clean or not. It means you can go into tomorrow's Giro without any hiccups. Good for Cadel.

Does anyone know who the Russian is that was supposed to be named yesterday? Was it Efimkin? Two bad eggs at AG2R. Becuase if Valjavec was the Slovenian, my money is on Efimkin to be the Russian. I haven't heard anything on this thread or elsewhere so I assume they delayed the announcement. Is this correct?

 

[Galic Ho]

How do you know that it is not true that he coughed up phlegm? I don't see why he would make an excuse up for that. Ruin the fantasy? We would hate to do it to you when you infer all top riders are doping. I don't see how his excuses were "conventional" for the time. They were just reasonings. You are very pessimistic Galic. Why would of Menchov, Sastre or Evans ridden the tour if they were "scared" of being tested?

How do you know it is? I heard one source dude. One source and it took quite a while to surface. I take all the dynamics, sources, timing, etc into consideration to try and come to a balanced opinion. Cadel mentioned he was slightly sick. I remember the phlegm was brought up by a team mate first. Was it Lloyd?

Excuses. I never said Cadel came up with them. He didn't. It is why I thought he needed more slack cut. Others came up with them. I only comment on their validity. He mostly remained quiet. Good for him. Though after his attack/incident with Cancellara and hushovd I thought he cpuld have toned it down. His tone was aggressive when asked questions, but his point was valid. Who will let Cadel Evans get in a breakaway? Nobody with a brain.

Go back and look at the threads last year. I was one of the first to suggest Cadel was sick. Hence why I said his performance was likely down to aspects of the first two options I listed; sickness/health and team dynamics.

Pessimistic. I like to think that I am a pessimist, maquerading as a realist, who is secretly an optimist. I've learnt a lot about doping because of the Clinic. I cannot help that I like to learn. Learning means changing ones opinion and perspective. I still enjoy races. I like Vino and Ricco being back. A year ago I thought Ricco was scum. I've just changed my perspective. Yes it does sound pessimistic at times, but I'm trying to keep it real so I am not left disillusioned and devastated when someone whose riding style I admire gets caught. History says someone will. Ps: The clinic is full of people who think similarly but really do enjoy the riding. We take it for what it is. Ignore us when your perspective on your favourite rider is challenged and you don't like it. I don't do it to be mean or make it a personaly vendetta. The reason I comment on Evans is because he is Australian and our countries best rider. He is a regularly talking point.

All my other comments were simply speculation about Pellizotti and a possible explanation for why he had a bad June Bio-Passport value. Evans, Sastre and Menchov were mentioned because they were the easiest to contrast him to and the most relevant to the context.

 

[auscyclefan94]

How do you know it is? I heard one source dude. One source and it took quite a while to surface. I take all the dynamics, sources, timing, etc into consideration to try and come to a balanced opinion. Cadel mentioned he was slightly sick. I remember the phlegm was brought up by a team mate first. Was it Lloyd?

Excuses. I never said Cadel came up with them. He didn't. It is why I thought he needed more slack cut. Others came up with them. I only comment on their validity. He mostly remained quiet. Good for him. Though after his attack/incident with Cancellara and hushovd I thought he cpuld have toned it down. His tone was aggressive when asked questions, but his point was valid. Who will let Cadel Evans get in a breakaway? Nobody with a brain.

Go back and look at the threads last year. I was one of the first to suggest Cadel was sick. Hence why I said his performance was likely down to aspects of the first two options I listed; sickness/health and team dynamics.

Pessimistic. I like to think that I am a pessimist, maquerading as a realist, who is secretly an optimist. I've learnt a lot about doping because of the Clinic. I cannot help that I like to learn. Learning means changing ones opinion and perspective. I still enjoy races. I like Vino and Ricco being back. A year ago I thought Ricco was scum. I've just changed my perspective. Yes it does sound pessimistic at times, but I'm trying to keep it real so I am not left disillusioned and devastated when someone whose riding style I admire gets caught. History says someone will. Ps: The clinic is full of people who think similarly but really do enjoy the riding. We take it for what it is. Ignore us when your perspective on your favourite rider is challenged and you don't like it. I don't do it to be mean or make it a personaly vendetta. The reason I comment on Evans is because he is Australian and our countries best rider. He is a regularly talking point.

All my other comments were simply speculation about Pellizotti and a possible explanation for why he had a bad June Bio-Passport value. Evans, Sastre and Menchov were mentioned because they were the easiest to contrast him to and the most relevant to the context.

You said he was "apparently sick" so I infered that you were saying it was an excuse that he was taking it easy because of human plasma. All good!

 

[El Imbatido]

How do you know that it is not true that he coughed up phlegm? I don't see why he would make an excuse up for that. Ruin the fantasy? We would hate to do it to you when you infer all top riders are doping. I don't see how his excuses were "conventional" for the time. They were just reasonings. You are very pessimistic Galic. Why would of Menchov, Sastre or Evans ridden the tour if they were "scared" of being tested?

I thought it was blood he was coughing up??

 

[Nick777]

Fair enough on the Evans part but Menchov was holding back. Try coming up with an argument that ignores the drug suspicions around Austria at the time. Dennis was scared ****less. Maybe if Franco had used his brain and toned it down he would not have been caught. To a lesser degree like Carlos. Cadel? He was just convenient to place there becuase a lot is expected and nothing was delivered which for him is very strange. More than believable in the Clinic. Come back soon and read the threads. They'll really take off this time of year.

Pellizotti could have held back and it is more than plausible he would still be racing this years Giro if he did. It is more than plausible his blood values were out of whack because he tried to do too much and pushed the barriers to hard. I used the example of Menchov, Sastre and Evans because more than enough people in the Clinic suspect they use, like all the top GC boys and because their performances dropped between May/June 2009 and July 2009 by considerable margins. Franco looked like he could have maybe gotten into the top 10 at the Tour if he had not deliberately lost time to chase the KOM. A more than expected plan considering the team had two fresh GC riders in Nibali and Kreuziger.

The contrast is Pellizotti's performances did not drop and he has been caught with dodgy blood values. It has been floated numerous times since last July that certain riders performances were not at their usual standard because they were scared of being caught. Contrary to popular belief there were numerous PED investigations occuring at the time and many riders were feeling the heat. Especially one Dennis Menchov.

How many more blanks do you want me to fill? Use your brain next time and think FFS. This type of post is really beginning to get irritating. I can understand now why Python was annoyed. Some people just don't keep up to date on what is being said and proposed. Better yet, put forward a reason why we should believe Cadel, Sastre and Menchov are any cleaner than Pellizotti. Take a look at this months Giro starting tomorrow. Do you think Vino is clean? Two of those guys will be right next to him for three weeks. Stop deluding yourself and if you cannot, leave it out of the Clinic.

You can say that again.

 

[auscyclefan94]

I thought it was blood he was coughing up??

Nope, definetly phlegm. He ****ed blood after the 2008 final tt at le tour.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Not all of a sudden, no. But the releases are now for two reasons: 1) They waited as long as they could to cross every t and dot every i, before time compelled them to release. 2) Maximum impact and exposure is on the eve of the big race.


Yes, and no. Pat doesn't really give press conferences like the President where he answers all comers. This would leave it to investigative jouralists. But the other side of this sword is that when someone like L'Equipe, Gazetta, or even LeMonde does hard investigative journalism on the sport, it's more aimed at cyclists, and when they do this, an equal amount of fanboys come out calling them tabloid trash, even if what's reported is ironclad evidence.

What is the intention in having a scandal a few days before a race? I assume that the idea is that it makes the sports administrators look like they are doing something, when they aren't. So it is mere lip-service and ultimately self-defeating because what people remember is the scandal which reflects the incompetence of the UCI, rather than 'the UCI is tough on dopers'.

CN for example has plenty of sit-down interviews with McQuaid and others - why not try to ask them some tough questions? Why is investigative journalism beyond the scope of a site like this? Why no follow up on the allegations made by Sylvia Schenk? It seems to me that there is a tacit agreement between the cycling media (as opposed to mainstream media) not to rock the boat, not to ask tough questions and not to hold teams, riders and the authorities to account. Everyone knows the game, everyone knows that something stinks in the woodshed, but no one is willing to open the door.

 

[Galic Ho]

Nope, definetly phlegm. He ****ed blood after the 2008 final tt at le tour.

Too much info. Where do you find this out? Were you there getting a urine sample?

You can say that again.

Please tell me you learnt how to cut, paste and delete on a simple text editor. No need to highlight one sentence and include my entire essay into the quote. Talk about over kill.

 

[Ripper]

Please tell me you learnt how to cut, paste and delete on a simple text editor. No need to highlight one sentence and include my entire essay into the quote. Talk about over kill.

Well you could avoid writing an essay. And take some anger management

 

[Von Mises]

No that is just one interpretation.

It has been floated about numerous times that

More than believable in the Clinic

it is more than plausible he would still be racing

It is more than plausible his blood values

because more than enough people in the Clinic suspect they use

A more than expected plan

It has been floated numerous times since last July

Maybe if Franco had used

looked like he could have maybe gotten

Contrary to popular belief there were

It was more than likely a combination of the first two

mentioned dozens of times in threads last year

etc
etc
etc
...

So, you are basically just gossiping around and at the same lecturing others how to debate...

Reason and some counter point perhaps next time? That is how one debates

 

[craig1985]

I know Galic Ho is telling us Menchov wwas scared after HumanPlasma was exposed, and to some extent I do agree, but even if he didn't, I doubt he would of won the Tour or even got a podium. It's very tough to win the Giro and the Tour in the same year nowadays (or rather nearly impossible), and like Menchov, pushed himself pretty hard in the race to win. You don't recover from that easily.

 

[Galic Ho]

I know Galic Ho is telling us Menchov wwas scared after HumanPlasma was exposed, and to some extent I do agree, but even if he didn't, I doubt he would of won the Tour or even got a podium. It's very tough to win the Giro and the Tour in the same year nowadays (or rather nearly impossible), and like Menchov, pushed himself pretty hard in the race to win. You don't recover from that easily.

Franco was third in the Giro, Dennis first. Franco did miles better by comparison in the Tour. Dennis was so far back it was embarassing. That is all I was highlighting. Sure Dennis went hard at the Giro but third was no walkover for Franco either.

As for the gossip someone else mentioned. Hello....Clinic it is allowed. My debating point stands. If I dissected one persons statements down to a few words over hundreds and cut and paste I would be wasting a huge amount of time. Quicker to type and throw in a counter point. The Clinic is about learning more about doping and the how, where and why. I'm not going to abuse you over it or get upset because I hear something that hurts my perception of a rider/team.

And Ripper. I might be wrong but when you quote someone I am fairly certain after the BPC drama last year and the beginning of this year that forum rules dictate you quote the original posters name and not someone else's. I might be wrong.

As for Pellizotti. See you in two years dude. I will miss the hair. Looks cool. CONI will make sure he cooks. First real scapegoats of the Bio-Passport. At least he is now infamous. Next best thing after being a famous winner in cycling.

 

[Ripper]

And Ripper. I might be wrong but when you quote someone I am fairly certain after the BPC drama last year and the beginning of this year that forum rules dictate you quote the original posters name and not someone else's. I might be wrong.

I thought I did

 

[DAOTEC]

on the defence

Pellizotti may look at the UCI Documents

17/05/2010 - Rome (dpa) - The suspended for hiking blood levels of cycling federation UCI, Italian Franco Pellizotti (Liquigas) has again dismissed al doping charges.
He was calm and relaxed and said I have nothing to fear, last years Giro nr. 2 declared this on the edge of a hearing before the National Italian Olympic Committee CONI in Rome.

A ruling was not set yet, because Pellizotti was given another 15 days to inspect documents of the UCI. Last year's Tour de France king of the mountain had been suspended two weeks ago, just before the Giro start in Amsterdam. He had criticized the whole thing as a "joke". Instead of the 32-year-olds, the Italian Vincenzo Nibali of the Liquigas team was brought in at the last minute to take his place on the team.
Transl: http://www.radsport-news.com/sport/sportnews_62843.htm

 

[BroDeal]

Pellizotti may look at the UCI Documents

17/05/2010 - Rome (dpa) - The suspended for hiking blood levels of cycling federation UCI, Italian Franco Pellizotti (Liquigas) has again dismissed al doping charges.
He was calm and relaxed and said I have nothing to fear, last years Giro nr. 2 declared this on the edge of a hearing before the National Italian Olympic Committee CONI in Rome.

A ruling was not set yet, because Pellizotti was given another 15 days to inspect documents of the UCI. Last year's Tour de France king of the mountain had been suspended two weeks ago, just before the Giro start in Amsterdam. He had criticized the whole thing as a "joke". Instead of the 32-year-olds, the Italian Vincenzo Nibali of the Liquigas team was brought in at the last minute to take his place on the team.
Transl: http://www.radsport-news.com/sport/sportnews_62843.htm

It seems to me that an interesting defense would be to demand to see the bio passports of the other top ten riders in the three GTs, even if they are anonymized. This is especially true if Pellizotti thinks that he is being singled out. There may be many other riders who have profiles just as abnormal as Pellizotti, so the defense can ask why those riders have not been sanctioned. There is also the possiblity that the data is so varied that an argument could be made that Pellizotti's data is not really an outlier, or that the data is so varied that there is no discernible pattern.

.

 

[lawyer]

Today at 14.00 there will be a hearing in Valjavec case at Slovenian national antidoping commision. It is expected, that they will acquit him. He has a big support in other slovenian profesional cyclists, cycling experts, fans and even journalists. They all backed him when all this broke out.

 

[Ferminal]

Today at 14.00 there will be a hearing in Valjavec case at Slovenian national antidoping commision. It is expected, that they will acquit him. He has a big support in other slovenian profesional cyclists, cycling experts, fans and even journalists. They all backed him when all this broke out.

If that's the case he might as well book a ticket for Lausanne.

 

[Animal]

Today at 14.00 there will be a hearing in Valjavec case at Slovenian national antidoping commision. It is expected, that they will acquit him. He has a big support in other slovenian profesional cyclists, cycling experts, fans and even journalists. They all backed him when all this broke out.

The guy who made his breakthrough in that well known clean team, Phonak.

 

[rata de sentina]

Today at 14.00 there will be a hearing in Valjavec case at Slovenian national antidoping commision. It is expected, that they will acquit him. He has a big support in other slovenian profesional cyclists, cycling experts, fans and even journalists. They all backed him when all this broke out.

That´s OK then, buga the evidence, if you´ve got the support of enough unqualified individuals you´re off the hook.

 

[DAOTEC]

Thursday, 27 May 2010 ...

According to Liquigas Pellizotti will begin racing as soon as the Italian Championships, June 27.

Liquigas asked Nibali to race the Giro d'Italia in the week prior to the race when the Union Cycliste Internationale (UCI) announced via its biological passport system that Franco Pellizotti's blood values were suspicious.

"I have already talked with [UCI President] Pat McQuaid to explain all that we know in this case. Our beliefs are based on our doctors' research," continued Dal Lago.

"The method did not work and there needs to be another path. We believe in the biological passport, but sometimes it is managed wrongly and in this case, the UCI managed it wrongly. Maybe it was an aim at Italian cycling, or the Grand Tour organisers, or at Mediterranean cycling. They want to take cycling to China, for example."

Team Manager Roberto Amadio said that he still considers Pellizotti a Liquigas cyclist

More on this: http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest/470937/liquigas-renews-its-sponsorship-contracts-with-basso-and-nibali.html