UCI to trial disc brakes?

[visko]

It wasn't a disc brake. It was the fence.

https://twitter.com/NigelWynn/status/834816717750730752

Video. It's pretty clear, Kittel is on the other side and far away from Doull - https://t.co/w56JBCcXhd

 

[DFA123]

Re:

It's easy to prove/disprove the theory. UCI just needs to take the same shoe, the same disc brakes and make some simulations using a dummy.

Exactly. It's not really that important whether or not a disc caused the injury in this instance; fortunately no harm was done. The important thing is whether it could cause an injury like that - and that is pretty easy to test for.

The other point is that you can see from the reaction of riders to this incident that they are really not comfortable having disc brakes in the peloton. The UCI really needs to put their safety - or even perceived safety - ahead of the lobbying from manufacturers. At least until very comprhensive tests have shown that discs don't create additional dangers.

 

[carolina]

Re:

It wasn't a disc brake. It was the fence.

https://twitter.com/NigelWynn/status/834816717750730752

This looks like a reasonable explanation.

Let's see what the UCI concludes. It should be easy to analyse the barriers and see if they are sharp enough to cut a shoe.

 

[biker jk]

Re: Re:

It's easy to prove/disprove the theory. UCI just needs to take the same shoe, the same disc brakes and make some simulations using a dummy.

Exactly. It's not really that important whether or not a disc caused the injury in this instance; fortunately no harm was done. The important thing is whether it could cause an injury like that - and that is pretty easy to test for.

The other point is that you can see from the reaction of riders to this incident that they are really not comfortable having disc brakes in the peloton. The UCI really needs to put their safety - or even perceived safety - ahead of the lobbying from manufacturers. At least until very comprhensive tests have shown that discs don't create additional dangers.

Surely the UCI should be basing its decision on facts and not the paranoid claims of riders such as Ventoso and Doull who have clearly been wrong in blaming disc brake rotors for injuries sustained in crashes? Or are these riders claims alternative facts?

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

It's easy to prove/disprove the theory. UCI just needs to take the same shoe, the same disc brakes and make some simulations using a dummy.

Exactly. It's not really that important whether or not a disc caused the injury in this instance; fortunately no harm was done. The important thing is whether it could cause an injury like that - and that is pretty easy to test for.

The other point is that you can see from the reaction of riders to this incident that they are really not comfortable having disc brakes in the peloton. The UCI really needs to put their safety - or even perceived safety - ahead of the lobbying from manufacturers. At least until very comprhensive tests have shown that discs don't create additional dangers.

Surely the UCI should be basing its decision on facts and not the paranoid claims of riders such as Ventoso and Doull who have clearly been wrong in blaming disc brake rotors for injuries sustained in crashes? Or are these riders claims alternative facts?

Well, it should be basing its decision on very comprehensive safety tests on the impact of disc brakes in the pro peloton. The riders don't believe that it has done this and are rightly complaining.

I realise some on this thread see pro cycling as a marketing exercise and view cycling as a type of shopping rather than a sport, but pro cycling is all about the riders for me; if the vast majority don't want to race on discs, and don't think they are safe, then discs shouldn't be in the pro peloton. Certainly not without thorough, independent and published safety tests on the dangers they do or don't pose in a large peloton.

 

[Tim B]

The UCI really need to make an effort to find out hiw this happened. If it was by a disc, then they should be banned in their current format, if by something else, then think Doull needs to say sorry, he over reacted.

 

[visko]

Rotors don't cut. Period. I don't know where the idea that rotors are like blades came from but it's pretty stupid. Chainrings are far worse, if anything.

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

It wasn't a disc brake. It was the fence.

https://twitter.com/NigelWynn/status/834816717750730752

Video. It's pretty clear, Kittel is on the other side and far away from Doull - https://t.co/w56JBCcXhd

What a surprise, the video shows Doull was far away from Kittel when they went down and there is no chance that cut came from a rotor.

 

[Geraint Too Fast]

Those look like puncture wounds caused by chainring to me. They certainly do not look like something which could be inflicted by a disc brake.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

From that vid and the overhead sequence it looks like Doull is invoking a perfect 'Ventoso' (which now means 'liar' in Spanish). Let's say that he actually collided into Kittel's rotor, here's what can happen to a shoe:

http://www.velonews.com/2017/02/video/video-can-disc-rotors-actually-cut_431182

..and the rotor in this demonstration wasn't even the rounded edge that Kittel is required to run. I have more than enough red herring, just stick them in the freezer please.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re: Re:

if the vast majority don't want to race on discs, and don't think they are safe, then discs shouldn't be in the pro peloton.

How is it that your narrative never represents facts on this matter?

CPA survey says:

16% For. Regardless of conditions.
44% For. With conditions.
40% Against.

What was that about something "vast", or "majority"?

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

if the vast majority don't want to race on discs, and don't think they are safe, then discs shouldn't be in the pro peloton.

How is it that your narrative never represents facts on this matter?

CPA survey says:

16% For. Regardless of conditions.
44% For. With conditions.
40% Against.

What was that about something "vast", or "majority"?

So 84% is against them in the current way, shape or form I'd call that a vast majority.
The riders are obviously scared to be injured by the discs. Whenever they see a deep, clean cut their mind immediately says, "that was a disc brake". The easiest way to take away the concerns is to ban disc brakes althogether or make a protective cover. But no, the riders (ok, 84% of them) have to "respect the democratic process" and STFU.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

You may have a perception problem, LaFlorecita. Any sane person can look at that survey and realize most are fine with disc as long as conditions are met.

 

[biker jk]

Re: Re:

if the vast majority don't want to race on discs, and don't think they are safe, then discs shouldn't be in the pro peloton.

How is it that your narrative never represents facts on this matter?

CPA survey says:

16% For. Regardless of conditions.
44% For. With conditions.
40% Against.

What was that about something "vast", or "majority"?

So 84% is against them in the current way, shape or form I'd call that a vast majority.
The riders are obviously scared to be injured by the discs. Whenever they see a deep, clean cut their mind immediately says, "that was a disc brake". The easiest way to take away the concerns is to ban disc brakes althogether or make a protective cover. But no, the riders (ok, 84% of them) have to "respect the democratic process" and STFU.

The riders haven't STFU. Instead, they have made baseless claims about the safety of disc brakes and two riders have outright lied about being injured by them. The credibility of riders is rapidly diminishing.

 

[M Sport]

Re: Re:

if the vast majority don't want to race on discs, and don't think they are safe, then discs shouldn't be in the pro peloton.

How is it that your narrative never represents facts on this matter?

CPA survey says:

16% For. Regardless of conditions.
44% For. With conditions.
40% Against.

What was that about something "vast", or "majority"?

It was actually "...said they do not agree with a restart unless all conditions are met"

The conditions were, rounded edges, guards and all riders on discs. Given that at least one manufacturer does not have a disc bike available this year then by default it was also an "against" for at least this year and probably next year.

The survey notes that the CPA has asked the UCI to make three concessions to safety prior to commencing the second disc brake trial: Disc rotors should have rounded edges; the brakes should be covered by a guard, and all riders should be on disc brakes.

Of the respondents, 15.71 percent said they agree with the trial restart, regardless of whether the three conditions are met; 43.98 percent said they do not agree with a restart unless all conditions are met, and 40.31 percent said they didn’t agree with the UCI’s second trial period under any circumstances. In other words, more than a third of pro riders who took the survey simply don’t want discs in the peloton.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

if the vast majority don't want to race on discs, and don't think they are safe, then discs shouldn't be in the pro peloton.

How is it that your narrative never represents facts on this matter?

CPA survey says:

16% For. Regardless of conditions.
44% For. With conditions.
40% Against.

What was that about something "vast", or "majority"?

So 84% is against them in the current way, shape or form I'd call that a vast majority.
The riders are obviously scared to be injured by the discs. Whenever they see a deep, clean cut their mind immediately says, "that was a disc brake". The easiest way to take away the concerns is to ban disc brakes althogether or make a protective cover. But no, the riders (ok, 84% of them) have to "respect the democratic process" and STFU.

The riders haven't STFU. Instead, they have made baseless claims about the safety of disc brakes and two riders have outright lied about being injured by them. The credibility of riders is rapidly diminishing.

I'm not sure it's fair to say Doull (and possibly Ventoso) outright lied. Doull was involved in a high adrenaline, high speed crash and it's likely the last thing he remembers is locking handlebars with Kittel. I don't think it's unreasonable that he thought a disc was involved in that cut. Of course, he shouldn't have been stating that it was definitely a disc because now he looks silly, but the question should certainly have been asked.

Ventoso I'm not sure about. We know no-one with discs was involved in the crash but I don't know if Ventoso knew that at first. Again, he knew there were disc-brake riders in the peloton and he suffered a horrible injury that looked like it could have been caused by a disc. I'd give him the benefit of the doubt at first. However, his description of how it happened and his refusal to acknowledge that it couldn't have been a disc later on makes me judge him a little more harshly than Doull.

 

[Põhja Konn]

The centre of the debate over disc brakes is clearly the attitude displayed by the UCI and how they listen the lobbying of bike and component manufacturers and ignore the widespread concerns among riders. The fact that Doull and Ventoso immediately blamed discs for their injuries is an indication of widespread negative attitude toward the way they are being introduced.

The three conditions for their implementation put out by riders are perfectly logical and understandable and until those are filled, use of disc brakes must be suspended. In a case like this, where there is a possible danger to the riders safety, the UCI must err in the side of caution.

 

[pastronef]

‏@ChadHaga

@nealrogers Watched vid many x. Current theory: twas Kittel's front rotor. Doull falls on L side and turns backward just as Kittel supermans

 

[King Boonen]

‏@ChadHaga

@nealrogers Watched vid many x. Current theory: twas Kittel's front rotor. Doull falls on L side and turns backward just as Kittel supermans

Doull was in the barrier before Kittel came off and if Doull fell on his left side how does the inside of his left shoe become exposed to the rotor?

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

You may have a perception problem, LaFlorecita. Any sane person can look at that survey and realize most are fine with disc as long as conditions are met.

But the conditions haven't been met. That is the issue. The UCI doesn't listen to the riders. It's obvious that 84% of the riders do not agree with the use of disc brakes in the current form, which is what matters.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re: Re:

We're only talking about this because a 'professional' lied again. Playing the devil's advocate, I think they should definitely halt the trial until the CPA conditions are met, no mixed fields until logistics are sorted out, and you can't have every manufacturer with a disc brake option except for one, Factor. I've said it before and I'll say it again, it should be all or nothing. So, as much as I can concede, none of this explains the fact that a rotor with a rounded edge isn't going to cut a damn thing.

 

[pastronef]

‏@ChadHaga

@nealrogers Watched vid many x. Current theory: twas Kittel's front rotor. Doull falls on L side and turns backward just as Kittel supermans

Doull was in the barrier before Kittel came off and if Doull fell on his left side how does the inside of his left shoe become exposed to the rotor?

Haga says "Doull turns backward" (his left side turn towards Kittel's left side)

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Left, right, facing, not facing, reverse cowgirl, whatever..

Here, let Jerry explain.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBz3PqA2Fmc

 

[King Boonen]

‏@ChadHaga

@nealrogers Watched vid many x. Current theory: twas Kittel's front rotor. Doull falls on L side and turns backward just as Kittel supermans

Doull was in the barrier before Kittel came off and if Doull fell on his left side how does the inside of his left shoe become exposed to the rotor?

Haga says "Doull turns backward" (his left side turn towards Kittel's left side)

Haga sounds like he hasn't watched the video, particularly as that first one was a retweet.

 

[yaco]

Much ado about nothing - The riders are CLEARLY uncomfortable having disc brakes in the peleton - Why is there any discussion ?