UCI to trial disc brakes?

[biker jk]

Re:

So again, to summarise, no independent sources to back up the claims. Your Tuesday night world championships just aren't relevant to this discussion - we're talking about pro riders in a pro peloton. Not some guys who do the odd sportive and probably change their cables once a year at best.

As mentioned. most pro riders haven't used disc brakes and so have no idea whether they are better. In contrast, here's the view of a pro rider who has used them (Cadel Evans).

“It’s like most things in life — people are comfortable with the status quo and often resistant to change because you go into the unknown but it’s change for the better. I was in the change when disc brakes first came to mountain biking in the 90s, and there was some reluctance from riders there. They were mostly for reliability issues but thanks to the world of mountain bikes, those reliability issues are all history now. Now, I wouldn’t think of having a mountain bike without disc brakes because of evolutions that have passed and the changes that have been accepted.”

“In my personal riding experience, [discs provide] fantastic performance and brake modulation. It works the same every time you pull on the lever, which allows you to brake much later going into corners and carry more speed through the apex of the corner, which then results in higher exit speeds, which results in going faster, which results in a big grin on your face. I don’t think [the objections have] anything to do with the technology or the capabilities of disc brakes. In fact, after using it, I’m quite sure it’s not.”

https://cyclingtips.com/2016/06/dis...ment-stalls-under-continued-rider-objections/

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

We all could use a laugh:

 

[Cookster15]

Re:

Nope, sorry. We've already jumped through your "experience" and "basic laws of physics says the ultimate limit in braking performance will be the tyre/road interface not the braking mechanism." hoops. You must have a fantastically poor memory because I exposed your obvious lack of knowledge and experience on this matter not long ago earlier in this thread. The performance debate ended years ago.

Yes I remember and no you didn't.

 

[visko]

The vast majority of pro riders can't, for the sake of their lifes or a GT win, choose the right gearing for a climb. And they have being swearing for years about how much faster slim tires are. These guys run on myth and tradition.

BTW I think disc right now aren't a good choice for pros, but they are a great alternative for everyone else. No the be-all end-all for brakes, but good for a bunch of reasons.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re: Re:

Nope, sorry. We've already jumped through your "experience" and "basic laws of physics says the ultimate limit in braking performance will be the tyre/road interface not the braking mechanism." hoops. You must have a fantastically poor memory because I exposed your obvious lack of knowledge and experience on this matter not long ago earlier in this thread. The performance debate ended years ago.

Yes I remember and no you didn't.

Ok, I'm sorry. I got you mixed up with all the internet trolls with zero disc experience who have brought up the performance debate so many times over the years that all these absurd statements all blend together from person to person. Let's get you up to speed because we're well past this.

Here's your original post:

Unless the rims are streaming with water, no decent rim brake setup will have any problem locking the wheels on any descent at any speed. Thus the braking limit is set by the tyres adhesion to the road not the braking mechanism.

Discs are easier to modulate and require less physical pressure for the same braking effect but for the skilled and/or experienced the difference is minimal. Thus the opinion of most pros.

I have no doubt discs are nicer to ride on but the laws of physics suggests the benefits diminish the more experienced and/or skilled the rider.

Disc isn't only superior in the wet, they perform better all the time in all conditions. To somehow attempt to skew this fact for argument's sake just exposes your lack of experience. The idea that the benefits of disc diminish for the more experienced/skilled rider is simply false logic. If a technology is proven to work better, especially so in racing situations where it's being pushed to absolute limits, the more skilled and experienced riders benefit the most. Same with index shifting, clipless pedals, brifters, carbon, aero, etc. Tell a top elite pro mtb or cx racer that their disc brakes are overkill because they have too much experience and skill to justify better brakes. Road is no different, and you pose a non sequiter when you admit that disc is "easier to modulate", but "braking limit is set by the tyres adhesion to the road not the braking mechanism". It's the modulation of disc that allows to have far better control over the limit of grip regardless if you're on knobbies and dirt, slicks on pavement, dry or wet. Nobody with the experience can refute this. And when you invoke "the laws of physics" to somehow justify false and utterly misinformed statements all that does is completely eliminate your credibility, something you accomplished almost word for word pages ago.

 

[pastronef]

Quintana no quiere los discos

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/quintana-disc-brakes-are-heavier-less-aero-and-dangerous/

 

[King Boonen]

Quintana no quiere los discos

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/quintana-disc-brakes-are-heavier-less-aero-and-dangerous/

It's like a bingo call of all the tired old myths about disc-brakes. With his second sentence he basically invalidates his whole opinion:

"Firstly because they don't actually brake all that well..."

And of course there is this:

"There is no problem with the brakes that we currently have – they work very well. No one has ever had any sort of complaint," he argued. "They're lighter, and you have a much better feel."

Lol... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJr074MXqN8

 

[Tim B]

Based on Quintana's comments it sounds like he's never actually ridden them, or, he needs a new mechanic.

 

[Escarabajo]

Is there anything wrong with the caliper brakes? that is one of the questions Quintana is making.

Quintana rides mountain bike when he goes bike home. There are some videos of him training with mountain bikes while others are on their road bikes. I haven't checked but I assumed that those bikes have disk brakes. So he must be familiar.

Cadel has a point that people usually resist change. But I would not compare Mountain Bike against road bike. They are both different kind of racing.

As for me, I guess is a matter of time until the disk brakes take over. They will figure out the best way to have them very safe.

 

[DFA123]

Not many road riders have spoken in glowing terms about disc brakes; most continue to seem unimpressed by them. Even if they weren't dangerous, they seem completely non-plussed regarding any advantages they offer. Except of course BMC global brand ambassador Cadel Evans, and Boonen/Kittel who are are nicely set up on the Specialized pay roll. I think it says it all.

Sagan is another interesting one. A guy with loads of mountain bike pedigree, with a lot of experience on discs, who specialized are pushing very hard to ride discs and are constantly releasing marketing photos of him in training rides on discs. Yet, when it comes down to it, he chooses to ride with rim brakes in races.

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

Is there anything wrong with the caliper brakes? that is one of the questions Quintana is making.

In general no. Caliper brakes will work fine in many situations. Discs will work better but they're not necessary. However, in some situations discs are much, much better and likely much safer. I know I've pulled my brakes on long, wet descents and got absolutely nothing from them for the first few seconds. You naturally tend to pull a bit harder then and when they do bite they can bite hard. Similarly in the wet and mud. Discs are better brakes in every situation, they modulate better and more consistently in all conditions and they don't grind away at an integral part of your bike.

Whether the pros need them should be up to the pros, but that discussion should be based on informed viewpoints, not knee-jerk reactions from guys with no experience. If the pros/UCI/manufacturers etc. decide that it's a no to discs, after an informed debate with every viewpoint being heard that's fine with me. The problem at the moment is there are too many competing interests and the actual roll-out is the usual half-assed UCI rubbish that pretty sets it up to fail.

Sometimes I think that the pros are rebelling against discs, not because of discs themselves but because it's about the only thing they feel they have any control over.

 

[DFA123]

Quintana no quiere los discos

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/quintana-disc-brakes-are-heavier-less-aero-and-dangerous/

It's like a bingo call of all the tired old myths about disc-brakes. With his second sentence he basically invalidates his whole opinion:

"Firstly because they don't actually brake all that well..."

And of course there is this:

"There is no problem with the brakes that we currently have – they work very well. No one has ever had any sort of complaint," he argued. "They're lighter, and you have a much better feel."

Lol... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJr074MXqN8

Erm, that's a bit of a lame point. One crash over two years ago, due to a miscalculation descending on a TT bike. Much more recently of course, Boonen has crashed in the last two races he entered. Kittel crashed last week on discs and then stopped using them.

Still yet to see any research backing up the repeated assertions that 'disc brakes are better in all conditions' for riders in a pro peloton. Obviously because it's not true.

 

[King Boonen]

Quintana no quiere los discos

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/quintana-disc-brakes-are-heavier-less-aero-and-dangerous/

It's like a bingo call of all the tired old myths about disc-brakes. With his second sentence he basically invalidates his whole opinion:

"Firstly because they don't actually brake all that well..."

And of course there is this:

"There is no problem with the brakes that we currently have – they work very well. No one has ever had any sort of complaint," he argued. "They're lighter, and you have a much better feel."

Lol... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJr074MXqN8

Erm, that's a bit of a lame point. One crash over two years ago, due to a miscalculation descending on a TT bike. Much more recently of course, Boonen has crashed in the last two races he entered. Kittel crashed last week on discs and then stopped using them.

Still yet to see any research backing up the repeated assertions that 'disc brakes are better in all conditions' for riders in a pro peloton. Obviously because it's not true.

I don't believe anyone has made that claim.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Quintana no quiere los discos

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/quintana-disc-brakes-are-heavier-less-aero-and-dangerous/

It's like a bingo call of all the tired old myths about disc-brakes. With his second sentence he basically invalidates his whole opinion:

"Firstly because they don't actually brake all that well..."

And of course there is this:

"There is no problem with the brakes that we currently have – they work very well. No one has ever had any sort of complaint," he argued. "They're lighter, and you have a much better feel."

Lol... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJr074MXqN8

Erm, that's a bit of a lame point. One crash over two years ago, due to a miscalculation descending on a TT bike. Much more recently of course, Boonen has crashed in the last two races he entered. Kittel crashed last week on discs and then stopped using them.

Still yet to see any research backing up the repeated assertions that 'disc brakes are better in all conditions' for riders in a pro peloton. Obviously because it's not true.

I don't believe anyone has made that claim.

Well this was said about a half dozen posts back:

Disc isn't only superior in the wet, they perform better all the time in all conditions.

viewtopic.php?p=2067806#p2067806

It's a pretty bold claim to make when it's mostly based on subjective assessment. That's not to say discs don't perform better in many circumstances, but all the time in all conditions is an extraordinary claim. Those sort of claims usually require extraordinary evidence. Anecdotes and personal experience doesn't cut it.

Not sure if these people did any further research as It might help to provide objective data on some elements of performance:
https://www.sensorprod.com/news/white-papers/2010-03_ctb/wp_ctb-2010-03.pdf

Keep in mind that performance is more than simply what brakes do when they are used, but also for the 99.5% of the time they are not used.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Adam Hansen believes Specialized are pushing disc brakes and forcing their riders to advertize them
http://road.cc/content/news/218136-lotto-soudal-pro-adam-hansen-says-specialized-trying-force-disc-brakes-peloton

“The other teams, they all have the option to use them but no-one is. I don’t want to be picking on sponsors or anything, but this is Specialized riders that are using them.”

The CPA isn't going to let the UCI off the hook.
http://www.velonews.com/2017/02/news/cpa-lawyers-challenge-ucis-disc-brake-rules_431446

Lawyers from rider organization Cyclistes Professionnels Associés (CPA) have sent a “legal warning” to the Union Cycliste International (UCI) on the issue of disc brakes in pro racing.

The letter reiterates the CPA’s position that the UCI did not properly vet disc brake technology, and states that the UCI is responsible for any “damage or accident that should happen to the riders.” The statement references EU employment law that requires employers to a safe working environment for workers.

 

[King Boonen]

Quintana no quiere los discos

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/quintana-disc-brakes-are-heavier-less-aero-and-dangerous/

It's like a bingo call of all the tired old myths about disc-brakes. With his second sentence he basically invalidates his whole opinion:

"Firstly because they don't actually brake all that well..."

And of course there is this:

"There is no problem with the brakes that we currently have – they work very well. No one has ever had any sort of complaint," he argued. "They're lighter, and you have a much better feel."

Lol... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJr074MXqN8

Erm, that's a bit of a lame point. One crash over two years ago, due to a miscalculation descending on a TT bike. Much more recently of course, Boonen has crashed in the last two races he entered. Kittel crashed last week on discs and then stopped using them.

Still yet to see any research backing up the repeated assertions that 'disc brakes are better in all conditions' for riders in a pro peloton. Obviously because it's not true.

I don't believe anyone has made that claim.

Well this was said about a half dozen posts back:

Disc isn't only superior in the wet, they perform better all the time in all conditions.

viewtopic.php?p=2067806#p2067806

It's a pretty bold claim to make when it's mostly based on subjective assessment. That's not to say discs don't perform better in many circumstances, but all the time in all conditions is an extraordinary claim. Those sort of claims usually require extraordinary evidence. Anecdotes and personal experience doesn't cut it.

Not sure if these people did any further research as It might help to provide objective data on some elements of performance:
https://www.sensorprod.com/news/white-papers/2010-03_ctb/wp_ctb-2010-03.pdf

Keep in mind that performance is more than simply what brakes do when they are used, but also for the 99.5% of the time they are not used.

You do realise those are two different things don't you?

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

You do realise those are two different things don't you?

What are two different things?

 

[King Boonen]

You do realise those are two different things don't you?

What are two different things?

If we leave to the side the grammar pedantry when it's obvious GM was talking about disc brakes vs rim brakes during operation, DFA was asking for evidence that discs are always better in all conditions in the pro peloton. I think everyone in this discussion has acknowledged that rim brakes can function just as well as disc brakes in many conditions. Both can lock up either wheel in most conditions and both can provide excellent modulation.

If you want to talk about disc vs rim when they are not in use I would say that Diamondback and Cervelo seem to think that when designing a bike with fewer limitations and specifically for a discipline where aerodynamics are paramount, disc wins.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

It's a pretty bold claim to make when it's mostly based on subjective assessment. That's not to say discs don't perform better in many circumstances, but all the time in all conditions is an extraordinary claim. Those sort of claims usually require extraordinary evidence. Anecdotes and personal experience doesn't cut it.

Not sure if these people did any further research as It might help to provide objective data on some elements of performance:
https://www.sensorprod.com/news/white-papers/2010-03_ctb/wp_ctb-2010-03.pdf

Keep in mind that performance is more than simply what brakes do when they are used, but also for the 99.5% of the time they are not used.

Now we're resorting to posting 7 year old bench tests by university students? Sorry Alex, I don't know where the Aussies are with all this but here in the US there's already an entire generation of road racers that switched to disc, some as long as 5 years ago, and will not go back to rim brakes. The performance debate is moot.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

It's a pretty bold claim to make when it's mostly based on subjective assessment. That's not to say discs don't perform better in many circumstances, but all the time in all conditions is an extraordinary claim. Those sort of claims usually require extraordinary evidence. Anecdotes and personal experience doesn't cut it.

Not sure if these people did any further research as It might help to provide objective data on some elements of performance:
https://www.sensorprod.com/news/white-papers/2010-03_ctb/wp_ctb-2010-03.pdf

Keep in mind that performance is more than simply what brakes do when they are used, but also for the 99.5% of the time they are not used.

Now we're resorting to posting 7 year old bench tests by university students? Sorry Alex, I don't know where the Aussies are with all this but here in the US there's already an entire generation of road racers that switched to disc, some as long as 5 years ago, and will not go back to rim brakes. The performance debate is moot.

I'm not resorting to anything, just asking that claims about performance be backed up by evidence and pointed to a methodology that might be considered to examine some aspects.

The fact a lot of people may use them is not evidence of their performance. It's just evidence that the sales and marketing of the equipment has been more successful in some places than in others, and/or that the regulations concerning their use varies. No one uses disc brake bikes in race here. And that also tells you nothing about the performance of such bikes either.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

You do realise those are two different things don't you?

What are two different things?

If we leave to the side the grammar pedantry when it's obvious GM was talking about disc brakes vs rim brakes during operation, DFA was asking for evidence that discs are always better in all conditions in the pro peloton

All conditions is all conditions. Not sure how else that can be interpreted? Climbing, breakaways, cross winds, sprinting. These are normal conditions in pro bike racing. So I'm asking that such claims either be backed up, or that they simply be represented for what they are, i.e. opinion.

If you want to talk about disc vs rim when they are not in use I would say that Diamondback and Cervelo seem to think that when designing a bike with fewer limitations and specifically for a discipline where aerodynamics are paramount, disc wins.

Why does a disc mean fewer limitations? I'd have thought it just creates different limitations.

Again I'm not accepting or denying these matters of performance, only asking for claims to be substantiated. Where relevant and verifiable evidence exists that a claim is real, great! Until then I'll treat it as opinion.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Any and all conditions this entire time is strictly referring to overall brake performance. You're really stretching here, Alex. You keep wanting to know the science behind this, the proof. Well, go out and get it! You're well connected. Why don't you call up a rep and take one out for a shakedown or two? Get a hold of a Giant TCR and let me know how it goes. Last time I rode was was before disc and even back then it was one of the best descending bikes I've ever ridden. The problem with this performance discussion that I have yet to hear anyone I know making a 180° turn back to rim brakes. Not one.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Re:

Any and all conditions this entire time is strictly referring to overall brake performance. You're really stretching here, Alex. You keep wanting to know the science behind this, the proof. Well, go out and get it! You're well connected. Why don't you call up a rep and take one out for a shakedown or two? Get a hold of a Giant TCR and let me know how it goes. Last time I rode was was before disc and even back then it was one of the best descending bikes I've ever ridden. The problem with this performance discussion that I have yet to hear anyone I know making a 180° turn back to rim brakes. Not one.

Why is it stretching things to talk about the performance of a bike overall? Surely that matters?

I'm not the one asking for evidence - I'm simply suggesting those making claims should provide it. If one can't, then claims should not be stated as if they are fact but rather as opinion.

As for descending - well there are many factors that go into that besides brakes. A TCR for me would be bad because the geometry would suck. Best descending bike I ever rode was one of the custom steel bikes I had made in the late 90s with geometry that made descending an absolute pleasure.

 

[King Boonen]

You do realise those are two different things don't you?

What are two different things?

If we leave to the side the grammar pedantry when it's obvious GM was talking about disc brakes vs rim brakes during operation, DFA was asking for evidence that discs are always better in all conditions in the pro peloton

All conditions is all conditions. Not sure how else that can be interpreted? Climbing, breakaways, cross winds, sprinting. These are normal conditions in pro bike racing. So I'm asking that such claims either be backed up, or that they simply be represented for what they are, i.e. opinion.

If you want to talk about disc vs rim when they are not in use I would say that Diamondback and Cervelo seem to think that when designing a bike with fewer limitations and specifically for a discipline where aerodynamics are paramount, disc wins.

Why does a disc mean fewer limitations? I'd have thought it just creates different limitations.

Again I'm not accepting or denying these matters of performance, only asking for claims to be substantiated. Where relevant and verifiable evidence exists that a claim is real, great! Until then I'll treat it as opinion.

My point is no-one is making those claims. In every review and every discussion about brakes, performance refers to performance under operation. You are literally the first person I've seen who has said that when people are taking about performance they are referring to the brakes when not under operation as well. That's fine if you want to discuss it, but you can't apply that interpretation to other people's comments which are clearly discussing operation.


The second part I thought would be obvious to yourself based on the brands referenced and your interest in one person going as fast as possible. I wasn't saying that disc brakes have fewer limitations, although they actually might in terms of frame and fork design (that stupid Trek flappy headtube for instance), I was meaning that if the UCI 3:1 rules aren't applied and companies can choose which braking system to use we end up with the Diamondback Andean and the Cervelo P5X. These bikes actually highlight an issue with discs, particularly with regard to covers and they also highlight why any discussions about aerodynamics are difficult. To introduce covers on the discs would brake UCI rules as far as I can see. The 3:1 rule would have to have exceptions around each disc for frame-integrated covers to be used and, I think, clip-on covers would be classed as aerodynamic aids and so banned. If we truly want to see what is capable in terms of aerodynamics then changes need to be made to the equipment rules.

This final point is why I think a sensible, informed discussion needs to happen, rather than this shouting match currently going on in the pro ranks. Disc-brakes seem to have been introduced about as well as Obama-care was (from an external prospective). Just well enough that people using them can be happy, but poorly enough that anyone not using them can easily complain. There are too many ridiculous claims going around (photos of Ventoso are still doing the rounds) and too many entrenched positions. I think we can all agree that, when used to brake, disc brakes will out perform rim brakes in the majority of situations, particularly in terms of modulation and consistency over the course of a race. At best, rim brakes can match disc performance. As to whether they are better for the pros in the peloton I don't know. I think the risks are being blown massively out of proportion. I also think that, for pros, the benefits aren't enormous (but could still be significant). If the pros want covers the UCI are going to have to look at their equipment rules and adjust them accordingly. That is actually the most troubling thing for me. As arbitrary as the rules are, I feel they keep bike design fairly consistent between the different brands and stop cycling turning into F1, where design can dictate the winner. I don't want to see that change.

 

[pastronef]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cpa-threatens-legal-action-over-current-disc-brake-test-period/

CPA threatens legal action over current disc brake test period

Riders' union says requested safety measures were ignored