Can't argue about that - the UCI needs a giant kick in the backside for how they've handled this.pastronef said:
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Re: Re:
Sure, whatever you say, Alex. The TCR has only been rated one of the best descending bikes since it's debut over a decade ago. Review, after review, after review. So, there's also a lot of claims about ee brakes having power and modulation like a disc brake. I've ridden them, so have many others, and concur that those claims are true. I'm sure you're a great coach, but go get some experience for yourself on the this subject rather than trying to downplay the ones who do.
Alex Simmons/RST said:
Sure, whatever you say, Alex. The TCR has only been rated one of the best descending bikes since it's debut over a decade ago. Review, after review, after review. So, there's also a lot of claims about ee brakes having power and modulation like a disc brake. I've ridden them, so have many others, and concur that those claims are true. I'm sure you're a great coach, but go get some experience for yourself on the this subject rather than trying to downplay the ones who do.
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OK, fair enough. Like I said, I'm open to reason and evidence.King Boonen said:
I very much doubt UCI will relax the 3:1 rule all that much but sensibly it doesn't apply to all components of a bicycle, so covers could readily be excluded from any restrictions in current regs, and/or relevant regs about their limitations can be devised so that aero considerations can be downplayed.
As to the ways the pros are managing themselves, I guess they are behaving not a lot different to any group when it comes to change.
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Did you miss the bit where I said "for me". I made no comment about their capacity in general, on average etc. In my case the TCR geometry is unsuitable, which is why I tended to have custom made frames.Giuseppe Magnetico said:
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Re:
This is precisely the issue. In a curious way, the business model of pro cycling hinges on this - because, big bike brands are now key sponsors, and their business model depends upon constantly updated new tech. Disc brakes on top end carbon road bikes is the next big tech update.
Sagan and Kittel riding discs translates to direct increases in sales; none of this is merely 'progress' - it is an intentional and carefully planned marketing/sales strategy.
Therefore, the issue is that these commercial interests are actually very powerful, and they are/will continually override any kind of impartial and open ended dialogue on the matter. And that is especially appalling when the riders believe their safety is threatened. They're not idiots; if that's what they believe, everyone should be listening.
LaFlorecita said:
This is precisely the issue. In a curious way, the business model of pro cycling hinges on this - because, big bike brands are now key sponsors, and their business model depends upon constantly updated new tech. Disc brakes on top end carbon road bikes is the next big tech update.
Sagan and Kittel riding discs translates to direct increases in sales; none of this is merely 'progress' - it is an intentional and carefully planned marketing/sales strategy.
Therefore, the issue is that these commercial interests are actually very powerful, and they are/will continually override any kind of impartial and open ended dialogue on the matter. And that is especially appalling when the riders believe their safety is threatened. They're not idiots; if that's what they believe, everyone should be listening.
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Interesting how the pros put up with all those structural failures of carbon in the early 2000's. Many crashes and injuries as result. The risk was more than tolerated, and for years. You ever get a carbon shard in your skin from crashing? I have. It's as if you're being burnt by a propane torch. Remember the great helmet protest of 1991 at Paris-Nice? [golf clapping]
There's a long and sordid history of idiocy in our sport regarding the safety of the riders at the highest levels, especially road. Everybody is at fault. The riders and the CPA, the manufacturers, and the bureaucrats of the UCI. This is by no means a one way street.
The Hegelian said:
Interesting how the pros put up with all those structural failures of carbon in the early 2000's. Many crashes and injuries as result. The risk was more than tolerated, and for years. You ever get a carbon shard in your skin from crashing? I have. It's as if you're being burnt by a propane torch. Remember the great helmet protest of 1991 at Paris-Nice? [golf clapping]
There's a long and sordid history of idiocy in our sport regarding the safety of the riders at the highest levels, especially road. Everybody is at fault. The riders and the CPA, the manufacturers, and the bureaucrats of the UCI. This is by no means a one way street.
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I think discs provide much more danger as a strike injury (like being hit by a blunt axe) than they do as a spinning cutting injury. Most of the objects being shown cut by a (standard, non rounded) disc have to be held there for a considerable time and often with considerable force to do any damage. Hold a shoe against a spinning tire for long enough and it will cut through it eventually too.
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This anecdotal evidence is just more spin, and quite possibly marketing driven again. An independent body (I would say the UCI, but then again...) really needs to conduct thorough safety testing based on a road racing environment. Or just put a big ugly cover on them - the discs will still brake as well as without one.
Now let's see him try that on a bike going 50km/h with a 70kg rider on top. Or after braking heavily numerous times in the last 10 minutes, so that the discs are almost glowing hot.42x16ss said:
This anecdotal evidence is just more spin, and quite possibly marketing driven again. An independent body (I would say the UCI, but then again...) really needs to conduct thorough safety testing based on a road racing environment. Or just put a big ugly cover on them - the discs will still brake as well as without one.
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Exactly the cutting issue is really one of injury from impact not friction. Really those tests need to be done with riders weight through the wheels and at 40mph to simulate what happens in a crash, just like it is for bar ends without plugs, or QR levers with the pointy end sticking the wrong way. A better test would be to fire a leg of pork into a disc at 40mph to accurately simulate a rider crashing worst case scenario into a rider down on the road.
Besides all this, I'm not even sure safety is the real issue. Riders simply want 3 points addressed and then everyone will be on discs and Neutral Service needs standards and tolerances addressing too for them to do their job as fast as rim brakes too.
Tim B said:
Exactly the cutting issue is really one of injury from impact not friction. Really those tests need to be done with riders weight through the wheels and at 40mph to simulate what happens in a crash, just like it is for bar ends without plugs, or QR levers with the pointy end sticking the wrong way. A better test would be to fire a leg of pork into a disc at 40mph to accurately simulate a rider crashing worst case scenario into a rider down on the road.
Besides all this, I'm not even sure safety is the real issue. Riders simply want 3 points addressed and then everyone will be on discs and Neutral Service needs standards and tolerances addressing too for them to do their job as fast as rim brakes too.
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I'm all for the pork cannon! More testing is very good. If it turns out that disc rotors are no more or less dangerous than any other part of a bike in a crash, then I request that Adam Hansen serve that pork leg raw to Ventoso, Maes, and Doull, who should all be forced to eat it.
samhocking said:
I'm all for the pork cannon! More testing is very good. If it turns out that disc rotors are no more or less dangerous than any other part of a bike in a crash, then I request that Adam Hansen serve that pork leg raw to Ventoso, Maes, and Doull, who should all be forced to eat it.
The problem is that they want to force us to buy a new bike with disc brakes. You want to sell disc-brake bikes? ok, but let me choose if I want a disc-brake bike or not. Specialized is one of the brands that are not going to sell any bike without disc brakes from 2018.
They want us to buy, yes or yes, a new complete bike. That's the key and the main reason of the "disc-brake battle". It's the perfect business. I don't want disc brakes, let me buy a bike without them, and don't force me to buy a new one with disc brakes because I don't have any component in case I need it for my bike.
They want us to buy, yes or yes, a new complete bike. That's the key and the main reason of the "disc-brake battle". It's the perfect business. I don't want disc brakes, let me buy a bike without them, and don't force me to buy a new one with disc brakes because I don't have any component in case I need it for my bike.
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The energy involved in stopping that is approximately 0.3% of the energy required to stop a bike + rider travelling at speed.
An analogy to put it into terms people can reasonably relate to. Most of us, with a wheel spinning when a bike is in a stand, have stopped the wheel using our hand on the tyre. It might sting a little but no big deal right?
Now try using your hand on the tyre to stop you when on the bike travelling at high speed and doing so at the same braking rate. You would do yourself a serious injury due to the friction causing large amount of heat and deformation of your hand, if you were capable of withstanding the pain.
Yet another person who failed their high school physics class.42x16ss said:
The energy involved in stopping that is approximately 0.3% of the energy required to stop a bike + rider travelling at speed.
An analogy to put it into terms people can reasonably relate to. Most of us, with a wheel spinning when a bike is in a stand, have stopped the wheel using our hand on the tyre. It might sting a little but no big deal right?
Now try using your hand on the tyre to stop you when on the bike travelling at high speed and doing so at the same braking rate. You would do yourself a serious injury due to the friction causing large amount of heat and deformation of your hand, if you were capable of withstanding the pain.
So they should ban tyres too as you are much more likely to land on a tyre in a crash than a disc 
just joking...
The thing with any of this is that any contact with a disc (or tyre for that matter) in a crash is momentary. You are not going to have your hand or foot or whatever on the disc from 60kph and decelerate down to zero on a weighted bike. In most pileups riders are travelling at the same speed in the same direction and bikes are usually off their wheels and unweighted almost immediately. Like with Doull, any contact with Kittel, if there even was any, was a split second at best.
just joking...The thing with any of this is that any contact with a disc (or tyre for that matter) in a crash is momentary. You are not going to have your hand or foot or whatever on the disc from 60kph and decelerate down to zero on a weighted bike. In most pileups riders are travelling at the same speed in the same direction and bikes are usually off their wheels and unweighted almost immediately. Like with Doull, any contact with Kittel, if there even was any, was a split second at best.
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How do you figure that a 3.5mm thick rotor with rounded edges duller than a butter knife can make cut from tongue to toe of a shoe that looks like was done with a box cutter? How about the feet of the fencing that Doull went into? After initial concat with their bars Doull feel to the left into the barriers and Kittel landed on his chest sliding by himself under the 1k banner, untouched other than his bike landing on his back. He should be sliced bacon, no? That video and the two from Velonews were made to simply debunk Doull's absurd claims that a rotor like this:
Can do this:
Didn't even have to see those demonstrations after seeing overhead footage of the crash. Sorry, professor. Not even the most ardent disc brake hater(it's a thing, really it is) can explain themselves out of this one.
Alex Simmons/RST said:
How do you figure that a 3.5mm thick rotor with rounded edges duller than a butter knife can make cut from tongue to toe of a shoe that looks like was done with a box cutter? How about the feet of the fencing that Doull went into? After initial concat with their bars Doull feel to the left into the barriers and Kittel landed on his chest sliding by himself under the 1k banner, untouched other than his bike landing on his back. He should be sliced bacon, no? That video and the two from Velonews were made to simply debunk Doull's absurd claims that a rotor like this:
Can do this:
Didn't even have to see those demonstrations after seeing overhead footage of the crash. Sorry, professor. Not even the most ardent disc brake hater(it's a thing, really it is) can explain themselves out of this one.
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I also the Doull thing is a bit of misdirection. It doesn't really matter whether his explanation is true or not - whether that cut was caused by a disc in this instance - what matters is whether or not a disc has the potential to cause such a cut, and how likely that is to happen. To understand that, thorough safety tests need to be done and independently reviewed. Specialized say they stand behind the safety of their product - so why don't they fund this and publically release the tests to back up their marketing spiel?
Alternatively, put on a big bulky cover that won't come off in a crash. But of course then they would look ugly and no-one would buy them, plus they would be unaerodynamic and take an age to change a wheel, so the riders wouldn't want them. The manufacturers really have to make a decision. Either put on the cover and accept that it's not a great marketing look, or prove that they are safe for riding in a pro peloton by funding extensive independent research.
Even if the bike is unweighted in a crash, it will still be moving at high speed until either it hits something (or someone) or the friction from the road slows it down enough. A spinning rotor hitting someone at 40km/h+ seems likely to cause some significant injuries imo. If it somehow gets near the face, neck, wrists or other soft body part then it could be very dangerous. This is the understandable fear from the riders - and a mechanic stopping a stationary brake with his hand is obviously not appeasing anyone.Tim B said:So they should ban tyres too as you are much more likely to land on a tyre in a crash than a disc
The thing with any of this is that any contact with a disc (or tyre for that matter) in a crash is momentary. You are not going to have your hand or foot or whatever on the disc from 60kph and decelerate down to zero on a weighted bike. In most pileups riders are travelling at the same speed in the same direction and bikes are usually off their wheels and unweighted almost immediately. Like with Doull, any contact with Kittel, if there even was any, was a split second at best.
I also the Doull thing is a bit of misdirection. It doesn't really matter whether his explanation is true or not - whether that cut was caused by a disc in this instance - what matters is whether or not a disc has the potential to cause such a cut, and how likely that is to happen. To understand that, thorough safety tests need to be done and independently reviewed. Specialized say they stand behind the safety of their product - so why don't they fund this and publically release the tests to back up their marketing spiel?
Alternatively, put on a big bulky cover that won't come off in a crash. But of course then they would look ugly and no-one would buy them, plus they would be unaerodynamic and take an age to change a wheel, so the riders wouldn't want them. The manufacturers really have to make a decision. Either put on the cover and accept that it's not a great marketing look, or prove that they are safe for riding in a pro peloton by funding extensive independent research.
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With the way positions on both sides are becoming more and more entrenched the only solution is thorough testing. And preferably by an independant party.
I side on the pro disc side personally. As with most parts of a bicycle crashing into hard metal bits at 50+ km/h is going to pose a significant injury risk but i don't think the spinning disk part will be significantly more dangerous. Especially now that they have a rounded profile.
The only thing that could be more dangerous of discs in my opinion is the risk of severe burns when very hot discs come into contact with skin. Having burned my fingers on the brake track of a rim brake wheel on a super hot day out in the alpes cote d'azur i see that as the major issue to investigate.
I side on the pro disc side personally. As with most parts of a bicycle crashing into hard metal bits at 50+ km/h is going to pose a significant injury risk but i don't think the spinning disk part will be significantly more dangerous. Especially now that they have a rounded profile.
The only thing that could be more dangerous of discs in my opinion is the risk of severe burns when very hot discs come into contact with skin. Having burned my fingers on the brake track of a rim brake wheel on a super hot day out in the alpes cote d'azur i see that as the major issue to investigate.
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Re: Re:
“I maintain that they are not dangerous. I’ve dared to stop a wheel at 60 kilometres an hour with my hand”, responded Boonen. "It’s absurd. Disc brakes seem at the moment to be the biggest problem in the world.” Het Nieuwsblad newspaper put Boonen’s theory to the test. A video shows Veranda’s Willems Crelan team mechanic, Tim Dejonghe, stopping the wheel at full speed with no injury to his hand.
From the article:Alex Simmons/RST said:
“I maintain that they are not dangerous. I’ve dared to stop a wheel at 60 kilometres an hour with my hand”, responded Boonen. "It’s absurd. Disc brakes seem at the moment to be the biggest problem in the world.” Het Nieuwsblad newspaper put Boonen’s theory to the test. A video shows Veranda’s Willems Crelan team mechanic, Tim Dejonghe, stopping the wheel at full speed with no injury to his hand.
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gerundium said:
Think for a moment when in a race the most crashes happen with the most riders involved. Bunch sprints, and out on the flats when attention is waining. No brakes being used in either scenario until the crash happens. You have be on the hard on the brakes trough a few sharp turns or switches on some very steep descending in order to get a rim or rotor hot enough to burn. Crashing while descending is usually limited to one or a few riders, almost never do you see mass pile ups. When I first changed over to road disc a few years ago that was a big point of contention at the shop because we all knew how hot rotors get on the mountain bike and cross. So we went out and uncorked a couple 65kph sprints and came to very sudden stops to replicate panic braking in a crash. They get warm but not nearly hot enough to burn anyone.
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