UCI to trial disc brakes?

[kingjr]

Re:

Much ado about nothing - The riders are CLEARLY uncomfortable having disc brakes in the peleton - Why is there any discussion ?

The discussion is about whether that feeling is justified by the facts.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

I agree that video does look as though a rider flips around and the possibility their leg may have caused Kittle to crash over his bars is not zero.

The only data that matters are injury rates and injury severity comparing racing with rim brakes to racing with disc brakes. I sure hope that data is being compiled, or is at least on the agenda.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re: Re:

Much ado about nothing - The riders are CLEARLY uncomfortable having disc brakes in the peleton - Why is there any discussion ?

The discussion is about whether that feeling is justified by the facts.

The perceived risk of a rotor cutting or burning somebody has to be one of the most absurd things in this whole discussion. We can even provide proof and the detractors are still going to whine about getting sliced, diced, and branded like cattle.

 

[DFA123]

Re:

Much ado about nothing - The riders are CLEARLY uncomfortable having disc brakes in the peleton - Why is there any discussion ?

Amazing isn't it? The riders are the sport as far as I'm concerned, it's incredible how their wishes and safety are being overlooked so that a handful of companies can sell a few more gimmicky bikes.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re: Re:

Much ado about nothing - The riders are CLEARLY uncomfortable having disc brakes in the peleton - Why is there any discussion ?

Amazing isn't it? The riders are the sport as far as I'm concerned, it's incredible how their wishes and safety are being overlooked so that a handful of companies can sell a few more gimmicky bikes.

And though it all you've never been able to convince anyone with the experience that better brakes are a gimmick. So sad.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Much ado about nothing - The riders are CLEARLY uncomfortable having disc brakes in the peleton - Why is there any discussion ?

Amazing isn't it? The riders are the sport as far as I'm concerned, it's incredible how their wishes and safety are being overlooked so that a handful of companies can sell a few more gimmicky bikes.

And though it all you've never been able to convince anyone with the experience that better brakes are a gimmick. So sad.

I'm not trying to convince anyone. The pro riders know they are not needed and are unwanted; the vast majority are unconvinced by them. With good reason.

 

[RedheadDane]

Even if disc brakes are better than rim brakes, which they probably are, why not wait until it's been made 110% sure that they cannot under any circumstances cause cuts? After all, UCI isn't normally known for being quick when it comes to implementing new things, surely the manufacturers can wait a few more years for disc brakes to become a thing in the pro peloton...

 

[sQiD]

Can a disc rotor cut a pigs foot, chicken, or a shoe ? The guys from Velonews have the answer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-p5WPanJXA

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re: Re:

Much ado about nothing - The riders are CLEARLY uncomfortable having disc brakes in the peleton - Why is there any discussion ?

Amazing isn't it? The riders are the sport as far as I'm concerned, it's incredible how their wishes and safety are being overlooked so that a handful of companies can sell a few more gimmicky bikes.

And though it all you've never been able to convince anyone with the experience that better brakes are a gimmick. So sad.

I'm not trying to convince anyone. The pro riders know they are not needed and are unwanted; the vast majority are unconvinced by them.

Pro roadies were also unconvinced by index shifting, brifters, and helmets. Not the brightest bunch[self-depricating].

They will have them eventually, like it or not. Writing has been on the wall for years, you're simply just not paying close enough attention.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Even if disc brakes are better than rim brakes, which they probably are, why not wait until it's been made 110% sure that they cannot under any circumstances cause cuts? After all, UCI isn't normally known for being quick when it comes to implementing new things, surely the manufacturers can wait a few more years for disc brakes to become a thing in the pro peloton...

Agree with most of this, but no parts on a bike in a crash can have absolute zero precent risk to the rider or others. The safety issue with the rotors is a red herring perpetuated by a riders group that has very little experience with road disc other than what is presented to them. This is the same union that is supposedly so concerned with rider safety, yet it had to be the UCI who usually sit on their hands that forced helmets down their throats. How stupid. The main problem is the sport itself has been financially weak for a number of years now and the amount of money needed to make this change just won't be workable for a while. And just like you said, and I have also said in the past that ultra conservative pro road is historically slow to change, regardless if these riders gain more experience with these brakes and start demanding them. This will absolutely take years to sort out.

 

[biker jk]

Re:

I agree that video does look as though a rider flips around and the possibility their leg may have caused Kittle to crash over his bars is not zero.

The only data that matters are injury rates and injury severity comparing racing with rim brakes to racing with disc brakes. I sure hope that data is being compiled, or is at least on the agenda.

Will that data also includes crashes caused by rim brakes being inferior (such as steep descents, rain)? Moreover, why exclude injuries due to bladed spokes and chainrings given the possibility of using non-bladed spokes and chainring covers (or belt drive)?

 

[Cookster15]

Re: Re:

I agree that video does look as though a rider flips around and the possibility their leg may have caused Kittle to crash over his bars is not zero.

The only data that matters are injury rates and injury severity comparing racing with rim brakes to racing with disc brakes. I sure hope that data is being compiled, or is at least on the agenda.

Will that data also includes crashes caused by rim brakes being inferior (such as steep descents, rain)? Moreover, why exclude injuries due to bladed spokes and chainrings given the possibility of using non-bladed spokes and chainring covers (or belt drive)?

Unless the rims are streaming with water, no decent rim brake setup will have any problem locking the wheels on any descent at any speed. Thus the braking limit is set by the tyres adhesion to the road not the braking mechanism.

Discs are easier to modulate and require less physical pressure for the same braking effect but for the skilled and/or experienced the difference is minimal. Thus the opinion of most pros.

I have no doubt discs are nicer to ride on but the laws of physics suggests the benefits diminish the more experienced and/or skilled the rider.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Cookster15, we were done with the spreading of urban myth and old wives' tales about brake performance long ago. Please keep up.

 

[Cookster15]

Cookster15, we we're done spreading urban myth and old wives' tales about brake performance long ago.
Please keep up.

That was quick! My point concerns physics. No urban myths or wives tales. The urban myth good for the industry is a disc setup can out-brake a rim brake - physics says that isn't possible except in extreme situations. I don't have time to read through this thread but outside of an extreme downpour or descending extreme mountain passes in 40C heat, the basic laws of physics says the ultimate limit in braking performance will be the tyre / road interface not the braking mechanism.

You guys are very touchy?

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Nope, sorry. We've already jumped through your "experience" and "basic laws of physics says the ultimate limit in braking performance will be the tyre/road interface not the braking mechanism." hoops. You must have a fantastically poor memory because I exposed your obvious lack of knowledge and experience on this matter not long ago earlier in this thread. The performance debate ended years ago.

 

[DFA123]

Cookster15, we we're done spreading urban myth and old wives' tales about brake performance long ago.
Please keep up.

That was quick! My point concerns physics. No urban myths or wives tales. The urban myth good for the industry is a disc setup can out-brake a rim brake - physics says that isn't possible except in extreme situations. I don't have time to read through this thread but outside of an extreme downpour or descending extreme mountain passes in 40C heat, the basic laws of physics says the ultimate limit in braking performance will be the tyre / road interface not the braking mechanism.

You guys are very touchy?

Yep, there is a lot of bluster and baseless assertions in this thread and very few facts to dispute this. Top rim brakes and pads provide more than enough braking power and modulation in pretty much every condition a pro rider will face during a race. Add in the fact that pros have ridden hundreds of thousands of kms on rim brakes and know their responses perfectly, compared to being relative novices on discs, and it's pretty clear why the disc fad is, not only unwanted in the peloton, but also may result in worse performance for many pros.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Re: Re:

I agree that video does look as though a rider flips around and the possibility their leg may have caused Kittle to crash over his bars is not zero.

The only data that matters are injury rates and injury severity comparing racing with rim brakes to racing with disc brakes. I sure hope that data is being compiled, or is at least on the agenda.

Will that data also includes crashes caused by rim brakes being inferior (such as steep descents, rain)? Moreover, why exclude injuries due to bladed spokes and chainrings given the possibility of using non-bladed spokes and chainring covers (or belt drive)?

The discussion is about brake tech. In this context everything else is a red herring. Disc brakes don't make chainrings any more or less safe.

If an accident / injury can be attributed to brake tech, then include the data. If it turns out the injury rates are better with disc brakes, great. If however that's at the expense of fewer but more severe injuries then maybe less so.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Yep, there is a lot of bluster and baseless assertions in this thread and very few facts to dispute this. Top rim brakes and pads provide more than enough braking power and modulation in pretty much every condition a pro rider will face during a race. Add in the fact that pros have ridden hundreds of thousands of kms on rim brakes and know their responses perfectly, compared to being relative novices on discs, and it's pretty clear why the disc fad is, not only unwanted in the peloton, but also may result in worse performance for many pros.

Yep, you don't need 20 years of experience with disc brakes to realize every post of yours is unbelievably uniformed. Years racing on rim brake bike has no bearing whatsoever in learning how to use disc, NONE. That's just a flat out lie. Most people listen and learn over time. How is it your talking points make less and less sense as we go along? Interesting how someone with little to zero experience on this matter is so keen on speaking as an authority. You can only propagate your grossly uninformed stance so long until somebody starts reporting your posts for trolling.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Yep, there is a lot of bluster and baseless assertions in this thread and very few facts to dispute this. Top rim brakes and pads provide more than enough braking power and modulation in pretty much every condition a pro rider will face during a race. Add in the fact that pros have ridden hundreds of thousands of kms on rim brakes and know their responses perfectly, compared to being relative novices on discs, and it's pretty clear why the disc fad is, not only unwanted in the peloton, but also may result in worse performance for many pros.

Yep, you don't need 20 years of experience with disc brakes to realize every post of yours is unbelievably uniformed. Years racing on rim brake bike has no bearing whatsoever in learning how to use disc, NONE. That's just a flat out lie. Most people listen and learn over time. How is it your talking points make less and less sense as we go along? Interesting how someone with little to zero experience on this matter is so keen on speaking as an authority. You can only propagate your grossly uninformed stance so long until somebody starts reporting your posts for trolling.

Nowhere did DFA make that claim. He wrote that the riders have years of experience on rim brakes and no experience on disc brakes, which means they'd be more inclined to use rims for their races because they know how they respond. Yes, if they used disc brakes for 3 seasons they'd eventually learn how disc brakes respond as well, but a rider's career is limited to about 15 years so riders simply don't want to waste time to learn how to use new material, especially if they've never encountered issues with rim brakes. It's a vicious circle, I know, but that's how it is.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Yep, there is a lot of bluster and baseless assertions in this thread and very few facts to dispute this. Top rim brakes and pads provide more than enough braking power and modulation in pretty much every condition a pro rider will face during a race. Add in the fact that pros have ridden hundreds of thousands of kms on rim brakes and know their responses perfectly, compared to being relative novices on discs, and it's pretty clear why the disc fad is, not only unwanted in the peloton, but also may result in worse performance for many pros.

Yep, you don't need 20 years of experience with disc brakes to realize every post of yours is unbelievably uniformed. Years racing on rim brake bike has no bearing whatsoever in learning how to use disc, NONE. That's just a flat out lie. Most people listen and learn over time. How is it your talking points make less and less sense as we go along? Interesting how someone with little to zero experience on this matter is so keen on speaking as an authority. You can only propagate your grossly uninformed stance so long until somebody starts reporting your posts for trolling.

Nowhere did DFA make that claim. He wrote that the riders have years of experience on rim brakes and no experience on disc brakes, which means they'd be more inclined to use rims for their races because they know how they respond. Yes, if they used disc brakes for 3 seasons they'd eventually learn how disc brakes respond as well, but a rider's career is limited to about 15 years so riders simply don't want to waste time to learn how to use new material, especially if they've never encountered issues with rim brakes. It's a vicious circle, I know, but that's how it is.

That claim is unfounded, and you can't back up a lie with more lies. Anyone with the experience can refute that 10 times out of 10. Your post is no better. If riders don't want to waste their time how did all these other advancements end up on bikes, some that took much longer than 3 years for full immersion. It's a vicious circle when you're constantly misrepresenting facts.

 

[LaFlorecita]

DFA and I are just trying to explain why riders would prefer to use rim brakes, something you clearly can't understand. It is obviously a matter of preference. Our posts aren't mainly about the pros and cons of both brakes and which are better but rather about the use of the brakes in the peloton. If you'd take the time to read our posts carefully and tried to understand them, instead of calling everything a lie, you might have a lightbulb moment and see why riders are not so keen to switch to discs. Surely you agree that riders have lots of experience on rims and none or very little on discs. Surely you agree it takes some time to learn how discs respond in every single possible situation and surely you can understand that riders don't want to risk losing a race due to a foolish maneuver as a result of misjudging the braking required. And because I know you'll refute this, I'll add: even if this isn't even possible, the riders cannot be sure and will not want to risk it just in case. On top of that, why would a rider be desperate to switch if they can do everything they want with rim brakes? It's not a miracle advantage that gains you 50 Watts. We're talking about braking here. I really can't understand why you are so passionate about this discussion (unless you have a vested interest, but I believe you when you say you haven't).

As for my position in this discussion: I don't have anything against disc brakes and I also don't have an issue with their use in the peloton if safety can be guaranteed but in the end the riders should have a say in the matter and I am sick of the UCI sticking their heads in the sand and ignoring the riders' concerns.

 

[King Boonen]

You can't claim that rim brakes are as good as disc brakes in most situations and then claim that you need experience to ride them. If rim brakes are just as good as discs then they react the same. If they don't react the same then one is objectively better than the other. I would guess it's the one which offers greater modulation, is less fatiguing and more consistent.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re:

DFA and I are just trying to explain why riders would prefer to use rim brakes, something you clearly can't understand. It is obviously a matter of preference.

You can't form a factual objective opinion if you don't have the experience. Not even all pros have had the opportunity to test a disc equipped version of what they're currently on.

Our posts aren't mainly about the pros and cons of both brakes and which are better but rather about the use of the brakes in the peloton. If you'd take the time to read our posts carefully and tried to understand them, instead of calling everything a lie, you might have a lightbulb moment and see why riders are not so keen to switch to discs.

The problem is that it's clear that especially you two have no experience with road disc and you're distorting truth to further your arguments. If you don't like being called out blatantly lying maybe you should cease doing it.

Surely you agree that riders have lots of experience on rims and none or very little on discs. Surely you agree it takes some time to learn how discs respond in every single possible situation and surely you can understand that riders don't want to risk losing a race due to a foolish maneuver as a result of misjudging the braking required. And because I know you'll refute this, I'll add: even if this isn't even possible, the riders cannot be sure and will not want to risk it just in case. On top of that, why would a rider be desperate to switch if they can do everything they want with rim brakes? It's not a miracle advantage that gains you 50 Watts. We're talking about braking here. I really can't understand why you are so passionate about this discussion (unless you have a vested interest, but I believe you when you say you haven't).

It takes less than one ride or race to realize you're riding better brakes and to figure out the nuance. There's a stark difference in performance, even with lowly mechanical disc over rim, and nobody with the experience can argue that. Some people like to come here and speculate about racing, talk politics, or the controversies about Sagan not shaving his legs. So I have decades of racing and technical experience and don't mind telling people when you're flat out wrong because internet forums are the place where urban myth is propagated, especially on this topic.

As for my position in this discussion: I don't have anything against disc brakes and I also don't have an issue with their use in the peloton if safety can be guaranteed but in the end the riders should have a say in the matter and I am sick of the UCI sticking their heads in the sand and ignoring the riders' concerns.

There's no absolute guarantees of safety in racing, they can only do their best to mitigate risk. Some people will get hurt even by a saddle or handlebar, I've seen it happen. Should we ban those too? You can apply the same "if you take the time to read our posts" complaint and apply it here. I have some major issues with the UCI, the riders, as well as the union that represents them. I even take issue with the way the manufacturers are pushing this. For or against, the handling of the disc rollout has been absolutely atrocious.

 

[DFA123]

So again, to summarise, no independent sources to back up the claims. Your Tuesday night world championships just aren't relevant to this discussion - we're talking about pro riders in a pro peloton. Not some guys who do the odd sportive and probably change their cables once a year at best.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

You're really grasping for straws here DFA123. When you have something relevant to contribute I'll stop reporting you for trolling.