UCI to trial disc brakes?

[Tim B]

Re: Re:

Well folks...

http://cycling.today/pro-team-mechanic-stops-brake-disc-at-full-speed-with-no-injury-to-his-hand-video/

Yet another person who failed their high school physics class.

The energy involved in stopping that is approximately 0.3% of the energy required to stop a bike + rider travelling at speed.

An analogy to put it into terms people can reasonably relate to. Most of us, with a wheel spinning when a bike is in a stand, have stopped the wheel using our hand on the tyre. It might sting a little but no big deal right?

Now try using your hand on the tyre to stop you when on the bike travelling at high speed and doing so at the same braking rate. You would do yourself a serious injury due to the friction causing large amount of heat and deformation of your hand, if you were capable of withstanding the pain.

From the article:

“I maintain that they are not dangerous. I’ve dared to stop a wheel at 60 kilometres an hour with my hand”, responded Boonen. .

Boonen doesn't actually say he was riding the bike at the time, I suspect he may have just done that in a work stand.

 

[spalco]

Re:

The problem is that they want to force us to buy a new bike with disc brakes. You want to sell disc-brake bikes? ok, but let me choose if I want a disc-brake bike or not. Specialized is one of the brands that are not going to sell any bike without disc brakes from 2018.

They want us to buy, yes or yes, a new complete bike. That's the key and the main reason of the "disc-brake battle". It's the perfect business. I don't want disc brakes, let me buy a bike without them, and don't force me to buy a new one with disc brakes because I don't have any component in case I need it for my bike.

You can still buy *** single speed steel bikes. Rim brakes will never be obsolete on the consumer market, because they will always be cheaper, and yes, are perfectly functional and are easier to maintain for the average person.

Nobody forces you to buy anything.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Re: Re:

Well folks...

http://cycling.today/pro-team-mechanic-stops-brake-disc-at-full-speed-with-no-injury-to-his-hand-video/

Yet another person who failed their high school physics class.

The energy involved in stopping that is approximately 0.3% of the energy required to stop a bike + rider travelling at speed.

An analogy to put it into terms people can reasonably relate to. Most of us, with a wheel spinning when a bike is in a stand, have stopped the wheel using our hand on the tyre. It might sting a little but no big deal right?

Now try using your hand on the tyre to stop you when on the bike travelling at high speed and doing so at the same braking rate. You would do yourself a serious injury due to the friction causing large amount of heat and deformation of your hand, if you were capable of withstanding the pain.

From the article:

“I maintain that they are not dangerous. I’ve dared to stop a wheel at 60 kilometres an hour with my hand”, responded Boonen. "It’s absurd. Disc brakes seem at the moment to be the biggest problem in the world.” Het Nieuwsblad newspaper put Boonen’s theory to the test. A video shows Veranda’s Willems Crelan team mechanic, Tim Dejonghe, stopping the wheel at full speed with no injury to his hand.

Again it's a physics fail. Add 500 times the kinetic energy to what a lone spinning wheel has and then try to stop it with your hand/finger in the same time frame*. You won't have a working hand/finger left.

* because that's the energy a disc rotor and brake pads (or a rim and brake pads) actually dissipate (mostly as heat) when stopping a bike + rider at speed

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

And just to be clear, I've no strong view either way on whether or not these things pose an extra unnecessary risk, because the answer to that question has not been satisfactorily determined. Stupid physics fail video tests do nothing to support or rebuff the argument about the potential risk of such equipment. Neither do anecdotes, personal opinion and experience of using the equipment, because like it or not they will always be full of personal and other bias. Neither do amateurish video analyses of crashes which are able to be interpreted in many ways and don't show what many think they do.

Collect relevant data in a non-biased manner and apply sound statistical analysis methodology. Do proper testing. Engage properly with stakeholders and inform and educate them about the findings.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re:

I know a few people that have been injured by pedals and handlebars during crashes in bunch sprints, some pretty seriously. I mean actually happened, nothing like we're dealing with now. Why isn't there proper testing and relevant data collecting in a non-biased manner, and sound statistical analysis methodology on those parts in a crash as well?

And just to be clear, so far we have 3 claims of injury caused by disc and nothing to show for it other than being able to raise a highly skeptical brow after seeing them all unfold. You may also take those stupid videos out of context all you want and call poo on experience, but it absolutely doesn't bode well in a conversation for those who have zero on this subject. A common trait amongst the disc flamers.

 

[Tim B]

Quote from Sagan overnight
Asked if it was for safety reasons, he said: "No, not for safety. Safety left cycling a while ago..."

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Re: Re:

I know a few people that have been injured by pedals and handlebars during crashes in bunch sprints, some pretty seriously. I mean actually happened, nothing like we're dealing with now. Why isn't there proper testing and relevant data collecting in a non-biased manner, and sound statistical analysis methodology on those parts in a crash as well?

While it's a good question, it's also a red herring.

The data that actually matters wrt safety implication of introduction of discs are data on injury rates and severity that compare non-disc brakes bikes with disc braked bikes.

As for other equipment, if you want to do analysis of the safety of handlebars and pedals, then you'll need to do an analysis comparing a handlebar with an alternative handlebar, or a pedal with an alternative pedal. If there isn't a sensible alternative to either of those components to offer, then what exactly do you expect such data to tell us?

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re: Re:

Racing a bicycle is inherently dangerous and these road 'professionals' should behave like one instead of colluding to lie about things that clearly aren't happening. That's just not good enough in this day and age, and it makes the fabricated melodramatics of people like Ventoso, Maes, Doull, and the rest look extremely stupid. What business do the riders or their unions have anything to say about equipment safety after Helmetgate at the '91 Paris-Nice? A sentiment that lasted for over a decade after the fact. Or look the other way for years as the early iterations of carbon forks, frames, and wheels would collapse under them causing crashes and injuries. Pushed extremely hard by the manufacturers, an era that makes this disc thing look trivial. The history of hypocrisy and spin is so thick amongst road pros that not even the sharpest disc rotor with some velocity could cut through it. Their manufactured narrative up to this point about disc safety is quite embarrassing not only to certain individuals, but the entire sport.

Those "implication of introduction" tests you suggested should be done and I'm not saying by any means let's just sit on our hands and wait until something like a Bartoli happens, but the way some riders have decided to politicize this has swiftly diminished their credibility on the matter. Peel back the onion and the only thing the self-proclaimed victims and detractors have convinced anybody of so far is that they simply have an aesthetic problem with a disc brake on a road bike. Nothing more.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Don't confuse being a professional (i.e. having a job in a certain field of endeavour) with professionalism (the manner in which you do it which typically involves setting high standards of behaviour, competence, skill etc). All pro riders are the former but only a sub-set exhibit the latter. Same in any field really.

 

[Tim B]

Couple of comments from P-N, take it for what it's worth...

Tony Martin at Paris-Nice
"It was the right weather to try it with the rain. You really feel the performance, it's a great advantage over the normal brakes," Martin said of the wet and windy start to Paris-Nice. "You always can break 50 metres later than the others. Still, you have to get used it because sometimes you are surprised the brakes are good in the rain."

Michael Morkov
"I felt like I was breaking much better than the rest of the peloton so it gave me a big advantage in the corners and I could even pass some guys and brake a little bit later," Morkov said. "I felt really safe with disc brakes and they work really well."

 

[Tim B]

WSFGI report into Ventoso's injury concludes it was likely a chain ring...

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/industry-group-rebuts-pro-rider-disc-brake-injury-claims-49368/

http://www.wfsgi.org/system/files/2017-02/Zedler%20-%20expert%20report%20-%20accident%20reconstruction%20english.pdf

 

[LaFlorecita]

Trek-Segafredo: We're not going to push Degenkolb or Contador onto disc brakes
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/trek-segafredo-were-not-going-to-push-degenkolb-or-contador-onto-disc-brakes/

"We're still in the testing phase, like a lot of teams are. As a company we're not pushing the riders either way," Shriver recently told Cyclingnews.

Trek have spent time and resource in development around disc technology. Their new Classics star, John Degenkolb, was originally slated to ride on disc brakes at Paris-Roubaix this season, but that plan was shelved over timing, with Shriver insisting that no product would be rolled out until the riders were comfortable.

The current plan is for Trek-Segafredo riders to go through another period of testing that includes the disc brakes and Shimano's new groupsets. Alberto Contador is not currently testing a disc brake bike in training but if all goes well Trek-Segafredo riders will be on disc brakes at races in July. Just not at the Tour de France.

"It's so new, and it's so different that you can't just put it underneath them at races and expect it to all be fine. We need to give them some time to ride on them at home, educate them, and the staff, and letting them all feel comfortable."

Quite a refreshing approach, compared to e.g. Specialized.

It's official: Disc brake guards are happening
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/its-official-disc-brake-guards-are-happening/

Interesting!

 

[carolina]

specialized? I think you mean cannondale...

 

[Dazed and Confused]

My goodness the stuff looks bad on the bike.....

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

specialized? I think you mean cannondale...

You don't think Specialized are pushing disc brakes a lot? Other teams have used them but I don't think I've seen any team display their disc brakes as prominently as QuickStep.

 

[carolina]

Re: Re:

specialized? I think you mean cannondale...

You don't think Specialized are pushing disc brakes a lot? Other teams have used them but I don't think I've seen any team display their disc brakes as prominently as QuickStep.

Trek said they would not make any rider use the disks against their will. Specialized has not made that either. They are doing more marketing, but the riders are free to choose if they want to use discs or not.

Cannondale, on the other hand, made several riders use the disk brakes in several races. If they had important riders like Sagan, Boonen or Kittel, they would have more publicity. Let's be real, Cannondale has good riders, but none of them has any significant marketing value.

Every rider in Direct Energy was also using disk brakes in the past few weeks (can't remember the bike supplier).

Is Specialized pushing disk brakes? Yes. Are they making riders use them? No.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re: Re:

For clarification on the Specialized position.

https://cyclingtips.com/2017/02/specialized-pressuring-riders-use-disc-brakes-yes-no/

"Interestingly, Specialized doesn’t dispute Hansen’s assertion that it is pushing its riders to adopt disc brakes. In fact, global PR manager Sean Estes openly admits it. “Yeah, we’re pushing it, because we’re making [disc-equipped bikes] and we believe in them,” he said. “But the implication in this most recent article that ‘pushing something’ is a bad idea is totally ridiculous. We pay teams and athletes to endorse our products, just like everyone does. That is literally how this sport works. Of course we’re pushing it. But we’re not pushing anything that’s dangerous or anything that we don’t believe in or that we don’t think they shouldn’t believe in. We’re attempting to guide them to what we believe is the right way. There’s nothing malicious whatsoever.”

 

[RedheadDane]

I'm sure that in time engineers will develope a disc brake which:

A: Everyone are completely sure are 110 % safe.
As long as there are still people who feels they're unsafe this obviously isn't the case.

B: Does not slow down wheel change in any way.

C: Is both lightweight and aero.


Until then, why do discs have to be introduced in the pro peloton now? Surely it can wait a few years.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re:

I'm sure that in time engineers will develope a disc brake which:

A: Everyone are completely sure are 110 % safe.
As long as there are still people who feels they're unsafe this obviously isn't the case.

No part of a bike is 100% safe in a crash, so why would disc brakes have to be 110%? Especially when there's no proof that they are unsafe to the degree that 3 riders in the last year blatantly lied to our faces.

B: Does not slow down wheel change in any way.

There's already a few thru axle systems that were specifically designed to be faster than a QR wheel change. The issue isn't speed of a change at all, it's taking a wheel from neutral and not having the rotor line up well enough in the caliper.

C: Is both lightweight and aero.

Take the UCI weight limit away and 5.8kg disc equipped bikes will be popping up all over the place. The general public has had access to some, for years now. If they are aerodynamically worse then how could Boonen and Kittel possibly cross the line first in a race with them? And even on those beastly Venge ViAS'. If you're in a crosswind strong enough to feel that your rotors are catching some air nobody regardless of brake set up is going have an aero advantage at all, much less be able to hold an echelon together in that kind of wind.

Until then, why do discs have to be introduced in the pro peloton now? Surely it can wait a few years.

Disc brakes have been tested in PT racing since 2015. You don't get better performance and refinements by... waiting.

 

[RedheadDane]

Well, those are the issues always being brought up by riders and other people within the sport. Though... maybe I did word myself kinda badly...

A: Everyone is 110% sure disc brakes don't present a significantly greater risk than any other part of the bike.

B: They don't make wheel change - including getting a wheel from neutral - more difficult. After all, I guess if everyone has disc brakes everyone will take the equal amount of time to get their wheel changed; the differences being with the mechanics, rather than the wheels.
Of course as it is now the wheel issue might also arrive within a team, with some riders using discs and others not. Which, imho, makes Cannondales' decision of having every rider use discs in those races where they test them a pretty smart idea. If they're gonna test them anyway...

C: Okay, I'll admit that here I simply repeated a fact I remember reading riders talk about.
About Kittel being able to win; I'd say it's probably something to do with his power. He'd beating Cavendish quite a few times, even though Cav is probably more aero than he is.

As for waiting: I'm not suggesting the engineers should simply wait, I kinda think they need to still work on improving the disc brakes. Also... two years really isn't that long.
Besides; why is it that important to have discs introduced now? You haven't really answered that. In fact, if we're simply talking about introducing disc brakes to the pro peloton simply waiting could very well be the solution. After all, it's very possible that the people coming up through the Junior and U23 ranks will begin to prefer discs, eventually Junior and U23 riders will - for the most part - become pros, while the riders currently in the pro peloton will retire. So, in time, everyone will me using discs.
It might take five years, it might even take ten years. But again: what's the hurry?

 

[carolina]

Re: Re:

For clarification on the Specialized position.

https://cyclingtips.com/2017/02/specialized-pressuring-riders-use-disc-brakes-yes-no/

"Interestingly, Specialized doesn’t dispute Hansen’s assertion that it is pushing its riders to adopt disc brakes. In fact, global PR manager Sean Estes openly admits it. “Yeah, we’re pushing it, because we’re making [disc-equipped bikes] and we believe in them,” he said. “But the implication in this most recent article that ‘pushing something’ is a bad idea is totally ridiculous. We pay teams and athletes to endorse our products, just like everyone does. That is literally how this sport works. Of course we’re pushing it. But we’re not pushing anything that’s dangerous or anything that we don’t believe in or that we don’t think they shouldn’t believe in. We’re attempting to guide them to what we believe is the right way. There’s nothing malicious whatsoever.”

it seems you forgot to quote the final part of the article:

“While we definitely do encourage our riders to use specific products that we believe provide a performance edge, we absolutely do not make our teams and riders use anything they don’t want to use, or don’t feel comfortable using,” he said. “We have been working on disc brakes for two years with our teams, providing information, working with the riders to show the true benefits. So to be clear — and this may sound like semantics, but I believe it’s an important distinction — we are not pushing the riders to do anything, in the sense of making them do specific things, rather we are working with the riders, the teams, the UCI, etc, to help drive technology forward.

 

[Cookster15]

Re:

Well, those are the issues always being brought up by riders and other people within the sport. Though... maybe I did word myself kinda badly...

But again: what's the hurry?

IMHO the hurry is some people need their not insignificant purchasing investment justified by legalizing discs in the pro peloton. I don't ride on the road when its raining and just use my Turbo trainer on those days when I am sure discs would make a real difference. Plus club racing is cancelled when wet for safety and insurance reasons.

Personally I say this is the least significant upgrade to road bikes in the last 30 years for the most expense. Certainly the move from 10 to 11 speed cassettes was a bigger deal. That extra 16T cog was actually useful most of the time and as I have to pay for my bikes, to offset the weight gain from a disc setup I will need to spend quite a lot.

My current bike isn't exactly heavy but it is still over the UCI limit. The frame is a Focus Izalco Max with Dura Ace mechanical and Swiss DT Alloy rims, 7.2Kg with rim brakes but about 7.7Kg in a disc version (hydraulics plus reinforced disc compatible frame). 7.2Kg in a disc version? Maybe $1,500+ in better wheels, carbon handlebars etc. No thanks Mr Bike Industry

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Re:

Well, those are the issues always being brought up by riders and other people within the sport. Though... maybe I did word myself kinda badly...

A: Everyone is 110% sure disc brakes don't present a significantly greater risk than any other part of the bike.

B: They don't make wheel change - including getting a wheel from neutral - more difficult. After all, I guess if everyone has disc brakes everyone will take the equal amount of time to get their wheel changed; the differences being with the mechanics, rather than the wheels.
Of course as it is now the wheel issue might also arrive within a team, with some riders using discs and others not. Which, imho, makes Cannondales' decision of having every rider use discs in those races where they test them a pretty smart idea. If they're gonna test them anyway...

C: Okay, I'll admit that here I simply repeated a fact I remember reading riders talk about.
About Kittel being able to win; I'd say it's probably something to do with his power. He'd beating Cavendish quite a few times, even though Cav is probably more aero than he is.

As for waiting: I'm not suggesting the engineers should simply wait, I kinda think they need to still work on improving the disc brakes. Also... two years really isn't that long.
Besides; why is it that important to have discs introduced now? You haven't really answered that. In fact, if we're simply talking about introducing disc brakes to the pro peloton simply waiting could very well be the solution. After all, it's very possible that the people coming up through the Junior and U23 ranks will begin to prefer discs, eventually Junior and U23 riders will - for the most part - become pros, while the riders currently in the pro peloton will retire. So, in time, everyone will me using discs.
It might take five years, it might even take ten years. But again: what's the hurry?

A: It's not about the relative risk v other bike components, it's about the relative risk versus other braking tech (i.e. rim brakes). That can only be done via decent data gathering and sound analysis methodology, which has not been done. This is what can help address the perception about the change in risk level held by many professional riders.

B. Until there is a common component standard and everyone is using it, this is going to be a dilemma for many riders. No neutral moto can be expected to have all wheel types available, and so many riders are quite probably going to need to wait for their team car to arrive for a change. In races there are often long periods when the team car is many minutes away from reaching their rider while the neutral is usually available. At present riders are considering the parcours and deciding whether or not a disc braked bike is too much of a risk because of the increased risk of a puncture and the increased risk of a long delay with getting a wheel change, e.g. Boonen and others at Paris-Roubaix. Specialized even had to make a special custom version of their race bike just to enable these riders to use rim brakes

C. Who wins what race is a meaningless statement wrt aerodynamics but your point is that it's possible to win with them on a bike. What we know from some testing is that the differences are not large, but they do exist and they are variable. The real issue here is that pros are mobile billboards, they are often not riding the most suitable or optimal technology for them. IOW this isn't really an argument that matters either way.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re:

....Besides; why is it that important to have discs introduced now? You haven't really answered that

For the last 2 years through starts and stops the UCI allows them in racing. What's to answer?

In fact, if we're simply talking about introducing disc brakes to the pro peloton simply waiting could very well be the solution. After all, it's very possible that the people coming up through the Junior and U23 ranks will begin to prefer discs, eventually Junior and U23 riders will - for the most part - become pros, while the riders currently in the pro peloton will retire. So, in time, everyone will me using discs.
It might take five years, it might even take ten years. But again: what's the hurry?

Wait for what? Disc have been available on road bikes for 5 years, in the pros for 2, and there's already a generation of amateur racers that don't know anything but electronic grouppos and disc brakes. What was the hurry with carbon fiber or anything else? Pros put up with years of catastrophic failures with carbon, some injures and races lost because of it. And it still happens every so often.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

....Besides; why is it that important to have discs introduced now? You haven't really answered that

For the last 2 years through starts and stops the UCI allows them in racing. What's to answer?

In fact, if we're simply talking about introducing disc brakes to the pro peloton simply waiting could very well be the solution. After all, it's very possible that the people coming up through the Junior and U23 ranks will begin to prefer discs, eventually Junior and U23 riders will - for the most part - become pros, while the riders currently in the pro peloton will retire. So, in time, everyone will me using discs.
It might take five years, it might even take ten years. But again: what's the hurry?

Wait for what? Disc have been available on road bikes for 5 years, in the pros for 2, and there's already a generation of amateur racers that don't know anything but electronic grouppos and disc brakes. What was the hurry with carbon fiber or anything else? Pros put up with years of catastrophic failures with carbon, some injures and races lost because of it. And it still happens every so often.

Good point. And, of course, completely re-inforces the point that these things should be thoroughly and independently tested before being introduced to the pro peloton. Just like the riders are asking for.