UCI Won't Speed Up Clentador Decision

[python]

You're jumping the gun here.

Firstly Ovtcharov's case has been heard by his Federation - as is the proper way to deal with it.

Just because Schaenzer's lab is an accredited WADA lab does not mean that WADA will not pursue this case.

Ovtcharov's case is different as he used the 'No Fault or Negligence' within the rules - Contador has done nothing to show the same.

i'm not jumping the gun, those who underestimate the similarity of both cases do. i have not suggested contador go free, i suggested WHY wada, being the ultimate custodian of the anti-doping code, may be holding back. they have wider issues to resolve and having a precedent on their hands (the german case) it's a political/legal issue, not a scientific one. wada is not likely to appeal because the german nada was in constant contact with both the wada and the international ping pong federation. days ago, international federation officially said, they wont appeal. this was in public german papers.

Just because schaenzer's lab is an accredited WADA lab does not mean that WADA will not pursue this case.

you are showing unfamiliarity with the details of the case. schaenzer's was not only the head of the lab that found 5 german pongers and berto positive for clen, he was also the main witness and the driving force to acquit the germans. we can only guess about his role in the wada standoff. i have a reason to believe he's being consistent as scientists usually are.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

i'm not jumping the gun, those who underestimate the similarity of both cases do. i have not suggested contador go free, i suggested WHY wada, being the ultimate custodian of the anti-doping code, may be holding back. they have wider issues to resolve and having a precedent on their hands (the german case) it's a political/legal issue, not a scientific one. wada is not likely to appeal because the german nada was in constant contact with both the wada and the international ping pong federation. days ago, international federation officially said, they wont appeal. this was in public german papers.

you are showing unfamiliarity with the details of the case. schaenzer's was not only the head of the lab that found 5 german pongers and berto positive for clen, he was also the main witness and the driving force to acquit the germans. we can only guess about his role in the wada standoff. i have a reason to believe he's being consistent as scientists usually are.

The Germans? No - only Ovtcharov's samples (A +B) came back positive, the others offered a hair sample to show if they also had Clen in their system.

Again Ovtcharov went to lengths to get his case heard - by Schaenzer who has been outspoken on contamination before.


Why has Contador case not been forwarded to RFEC?
Why has he not offered a test of his hair sample?
Why has he not requested his teammates to do the same (the others that had the meat)?

When that happens - you can compare it to the Ovtcharov case.

 

[python]

The Germans? No - only Ovtcharov's samples (A +B) came back positive, the others offered a hair sample to show if they also had Clen in their system.

again, you are betraying poor knowledge of the case. you need to read more than misinformed cycling media. ovcharov is german as were his 4 teammates who competed in china. he was tested, urine tested, one day after he came back from china. his 4 teammate were tested, urine tested, one day after him. their hair sample was taken much later. as expected, it was never properly reported in english.

Why has Contador case not been forwarded to RFEC?

because at the stage of being reviewed by the uci. wada is in the middle. they are looking at a myriad of issues. mainly political to be covered up by science.

Why has he not offered a test of his hair sample?

how do you know he hasn't ?

Why has he not requested his teammates to do the same (the others that had the meat)?

how do you know he hasn't ?

When that happens - you can compare it to the Ovtcharov case.

no. when you know it did not happened you can draw conclusions. until then you are the one jumping the gun.

 

[HoustonHammer]

you often pride yourself in quoting the regulations, rules and codes...then do your self a favour and read the wada code about strict liability and threashold substances.

repeat:

5 german athletes tested positive for clenbuterol - no charges filed, no appeals expected from wada. Why ?

any clenbuterol found is supposed to result in a doping violation automatically. you, among others, expect that from contador. 5 germans avoided it. their urines were tested and found with clen by the same lab that tested berto. why are they not charged ?

what i suggested is that these are the questions wada is struggling with when they consider contador's case which is essentially the same - about clenbuterol positive.

OK, since you're such a nice chap, I'll explain it.

The code establishes strict liability for prohibited substances; if they're in your sample, you're guilty of doping. HOWEVER, there is a provision for "Elimination or Reduction of Period of Ineligibility
Based on Exceptional Circumstances." What it says that if you can prove you had "no fault or negligence" in the doping, then the period of ineligibility can be eliminated; OR if you can prove you had "no significant fault or negligence" in the doping, your period of ineligibility is reduced by 50%.

Now, consider Herr Pingpong. It is not true that there was "no charge filed" if; he was provisionally suspended by his federation, which ultimately accepted that he had proven "no fault or negligence" in his infraction and eliminated his period of ineligibility. As for the "no appeals from WADA expected", maybe you know something nobody else does. You might be right, but I'm not aware that WADA announced they won't appeal.

I can't comment on your claim that five other Germans also gave urine samples that were found positive for Clen by the same lab that busted AC. I've never seen that anywhere either.

But the biggest problem for AC is that he doesn't claim to have eaten beef from a country that actually uses Clen in meat production (i.e. China.). He says the beef he ate was from Spain, a country in which the evidence suggests Clen presence in beef is vanishingly rare. That's a huge difference between these stories.

 

[Anonymous]

Joe Papp tweeted last night that it was because they know they'd have to give the title to Schleck, initmating they don't want him to benefit either. Wonder if he was caught with plasticizers too, but as there's no "legal" positive for anything they can't release it.

my understanding when this broke was that AC wasnt the only one tested for plasticizers and that AS also came up dodgy. would make sense. Maybe wiggins did win the tour after all

 

[scribe]

Ding ding! We have a winner for the biggest hypocrite in cyberspace. Special rules for his hero AC, bogus "it was too small to have a benefit" rant while dismissing the possibility of degradation in the body or transfusions, etc. for this "fanboy" with the EPO slamming Berzin as his hero avatar. All the while a main part of the mob after LA.

Only in the clinic.

Rating the Biggest Hypocrites in the clinic:
1. Python (I LOL every time I see this moran's avatar in a Contador thread)
2. "This couldn't have happened to a nicer guy." - The Hog on Contadoper
3. Publicus - Someone wake him up when the Armstrong indictment goes down. The Armstrong thread in the main forum has died without him around to bump it up.
4.(tied) El Pistolero/Senor Contador/ and about 10 other direvitive user names that all share one brain.....

 

[python]

OK, since you're such a nice chap, I'll explain it.

and since you're such a diligent dude, i'll tell you, you got half of it wrong and half right. you did not look in the right places. but if you get rid of your attitude, i'll help you. it's all right if you refuse it.

The code establishes strict liability for prohibited substances; if they're in your sample, you're guilty of doping. HOWEVER, there is a provision for "Elimination or Reduction of Period of Ineligibility
Based on Exceptional Circumstances." What it says that if you can prove you had "no fault or negligence" in the doping, then the period of ineligibility can be eliminated; OR if you can prove you had "no significant fault or negligence" in the doping, your period of ineligibility is reduced by 50%.

you're on the right track, chap/dude. why would this not apply to contador ?

Now, consider Herr Pingpong. It is not true that there was "no charge filed"

go back and read - no charge filed against the 4 team mates who had clen both in their urine and hair. Why ?

if he was provisionally suspended by his federation, which ultimately accepted that he had proven "no fault or negligence" in his infraction and eliminated his period of ineligibility.

you are getting closer.

As for the "no appeals from WADA expected", maybe you know something nobody else does. You might be right, but I'm not aware that WADA announced they won't appeal.

as said before, the german ad agency worked closely with all parties including wada. this was in german papers but never reported as far as could see in english.

I can't comment on your claim that five other Germans also gave urine samples that were found positive for Clen by the same lab that busted AC.

again, not five but 4 (not counting support personnel).

But the biggest problem for AC is that he doesn't claim to have eaten beef from a country that actually uses Clen in meat production (i.e. China.).

ha, now you came up on wada's dilemma not withstanding that china denies using clen, and wada really not having an idea if clen was actually in the meat berto ate. they're probably testing everything they can to first exclude or charge blood doping, and then everything else.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

Pat announces "we are going to take ages and try much harder to be fair than we do for other riders". This is great news. The crap he spouts is generally contradicted within a few weeks, so the hearing date should be soon and a standard 2 year ban sought.

Can't agree with Berzin & Hog. Bert needs to demonstrate no fault or negligence through a normal hearing process for this. Otherwise the "above the law" BS from the last decade or so is reinforced. It's his responsibility to demonstrate no fault, once he has had an AAF - just like everyone else.

 

[python]

moran's avatars

morans are those who respond to avatar instead of what's under them. mods please take a note of where this thread went, would you, when people like scribler decide to derail it ?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

again, you are betraying poor knowledge of the case. you need to read more than misinformed cycling media. ovcharov is german as were his 4 teammates who competed in china. he was tested, urine tested, one day after he came back from china. his 4 teammate were tested, urine tested, one day after him. their hair sample was taken much later. as expected, it was never properly reported in english.

because at the stage of being reviewed by the uci. wada is in the middle. they are looking at a myriad of issues. mainly political to be covered up by science.how do you know he hasn't ?
how do you know he hasn't ?

no. when you know it did not happened you can draw conclusions. until then you are the one jumping the gun.

In all the time it took you to write that you could have just pasted in some sources.

I did not suggest Ovtcharov was not German - in fact I was pointing out your plural use of the word. You mentioned that more than he had failed a test, again source it.

Ovtcharov has gone out of his way to (thusfar) avoid sanction -all in one month!

Contador had much longer - and all we have is a 'contaminated meat' story, with not even the receipt to show.

 

[Altitude]

Cycling will lose "credibility"? Seriously? You think? What now? Since the Tour has been totally clean since 1999.

Fool.

Cycling will lose credibility if they remove Contador.

Think before you write Junior.

Huh? Maybe in the Bizarro World.

 

[TERMINATOR]

repeat:

5 german athletes tested positive for clenbuterol - no charges filed, no appeals expected from wada. Why ?

any clenbuterol found is supposed to result in a doping violation automatically. you, among others, expect that from contador. 5 germans avoided it. their urines were tested and found with clen by the same lab that tested berto. why are they not charged ?

what i suggested is that these are the questions wada is struggling with when they consider contador's case which is essentially the same - about clenbuterol positive.

The case you cited is the legal equivalent of the Spanish federation refusing to sanction Valverde despite his DNA being found in blood bags from Operacion Puerto. WADA/UCI appealed and won. How do you know WADA won't appeal the decision of the German ping pong federation?

Second, the ping-pong case is completely different. Ping-pong players would not be likely to use clenbuterol in some organized way whereas cyclists would.

Third, China has a significant issue with clenbuterol contamination in livestock. Spain does not.

Fourth, many cyclists have tested positive for clenbuterol and other steroids. Ping pong players have no such history, making a cluster of positives for Clenbuterol - especially from a team that's just come back from China - more likely to be the result of contamination than an organized doping program.

Fifth, the ping pong players didn't have plasticizers found in their blood whereas Contador did.

Given the corrupt nature of the Spanish federation, they will likely choose to believe Albuterol's 'bad cut of meat' story, forcing the UCI and WADA to appeal, just like they had to do in the Valverde case.

Either way, Contador is going down. He will lose his Tour and he will be suspended, joining the Landis club of shame.

 

[Altitude]

If Alberto is not banned, the "stink" you speak of will be evident at the 2011 Tour with the fans booing and jeering Alberto even more than they did in 2010:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-wNgH0VJuA.
.
.

Haha, does anyone have a more ridiculous looking podium stance than Aldirto? WTF

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Either way, Contador is going down. He will lose his Tour and he will be suspended, joining the Landis club of shame.

Man, that's a club that should have a way bigger membership...

 

[HoustonHammer]

you're on the right track, chap/dude. why would this not apply to contador ?

The 'no significant fault or negligence' condition might apply to Clentador. It would be mighty hard to prove given some of the Clen stats for Europe that I've seen, but hey, maybe. But it's still a huge problem for Clentador because it means a one-year ban and he loses the 2010 TdF title. For him, I'll bet that looks essentially the same as the two-year ban.

I'm not sure what you think I'm half-wrong about. I simply don't have the information you do about the Ovtcharov case. What I read suggested that the other guys were maybe athletes, but that they didn't give samples as part of the anti-doping protocol, but rather in support of Ovtcharov; in that case, their samples would clearly not be usable in a doping case against them.

I'm always happy to learn something new. Tell me your sources for the Ovtcharov case and I'll go read them. I'm also always willing to admit when I'm wrong. Wouldn't that be nice?

 

[python]

In all the time it took you to write that you could have just pasted in some sources.

it took me 3 -4 minutes to type. since i'm not near my usual computer and dont have the time search, i'll leave this task to those questioning my sources or later. besides, it requires fluency in german.

I did not suggest Ovtcharov was not German - in fact I was pointing out your plural use of the word. You mentioned that more than he had failed a test, again source it.

same as above.

Ovtcharov has gone out of his way to (thusfar) avoid sanction -all in one month!

so ?

Contador had much longer - and all we have is a 'contaminated meat' story, with not even the receipt to show.

i share you frustration.

 

[scribe]

morans are those who respond to avatar instead of what's under them. mods please take a note of where this thread went, would you, when people like scribler decide to derail it ?

Mods. Please delete this thread. There are too many delicious Armstrong threads to keep us occupied.

 

[python]

I'm not sure what you think I'm half-wrong about.

when judging a ping pong player one needs to use..........ping pong federation anti-doping rules, not the uci. both endorsed wada code but there are small differences. my sources are: public articles in german including official and less so
statements from ping pong federations both german and international.

 

[HoustonHammer]

Cycling will lose "credibility"? Seriously? You think? What now? Since the Tour has been totally clean since 1999.

Fool.

Cycling will lose credibility if they remove Contador.

Think before you write Junior.

I'm skeptical as to what credibility cycling has left to lose. Still, why do you think that? Why would a sport lose credibility for punishing a cheater?

 

[scribe]

I'm skeptical as to what credibility cycling has left to lose. Still, why do you think that? Why would a sport lose credibility for punishing a cheater?

The Hog speaks out both sides of his mouth. Depending on which way the wind is blowing

 

[HoustonHammer]

when judging a ping pong player one need to use..........ping pong federation anti-doping rules, not the uci. my sources are: public articles in german including official and less so
statements from ping pong federations both german and international.

I read the ITTF's rules. Like the UCI's, their rules are basically a carbon copy of the WADA code. Same clauses, same terminology.

Which articles? I've seen a number of quotes from Weikert and from Ovtcharov himself. But nothing that had anywhere the detail you suggest. Can you provide links?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

when judging a ping pong player one needs to use..........ping pong federation anti-doping rules, not the uci. both endorsed wada code but there are small differences. my sources are: public articles in german including official and less so
statements from ping pong federations both german and international.

Public articles ...... that aren't easily found, it seems.

 

[Polish]

when judging a ping pong player one needs to use..........ping pong federation anti-doping rules, not the uci. both endorsed wada code but there are small differences. my sources are: public articles in german including official and less so
statements from ping pong federations both german and international.

Judging a ping-pong player using cycling rules is as mistaken as judging a cyclist using ping pong rules.

The Ping Pong Clen case and the Alberto Clen case are not comparable.

 

[Cal_Joe]

when judging a ping pong player one needs to use..........ping pong federation anti-doping rules, not the uci. both endorsed wada code but there are small differences. my sources are: public articles in german including official and less so
statements from ping pong federations both german and international.

Don't be afraid to post the links. Many here are bilingual/multilingual and can help in providing English summaries.

 

[python]

Don't be afraid to post the links. Many here are bilingual/multilingual and can help in providing English summaries.

i am not afraid, if you read my posts. don't be afraid to do some searching too.