" uciic " ? Gone ?

[Dr. Maserati]

Maybe you should stop smoking crack.

I have no problem with WADA calling the UCI out. As I said earlier, although I don't place much credibility in Fahey or WADA, I still place their credibility above the UCI.

It's one big cesspool and the UCI are the worst amongst a bad lot. A huge shake up is required and Pat and Hein need to go. If WADA/Fahey are a catalyst for that, then great.

Fine, but what exactly has Fahey said or done that is wrong? (Same question to MV)

Pat has taken out key statements in the correspondence completely out of context - if he did that here he would probably get a ban for trolling.
How else would you address someone who like Pat who has only come to T&R in an effort to assist Armstrong, and (at that time) was actively thwarting his their own investigation?

 

[MarkvW]

Maybe you should stop smoking crack.

I have no problem with WADA calling the UCI out. As I said earlier, although I don't place much credibility in Fahey or WADA, I still place their credibility above the UCI.

It's one big cesspool and the UCI are the worst amongst a bad lot. A huge shake up is required and Pat and Hein need to go. If WADA/Fahey are a catalyst for that, then great.

Maybe you should stop the childish insults. Would your post be any the worse if you deleted its idiotic first sentence?

 

[Wallace]

Can I be honest, at the risk of being branded an enabler or something?

I think Pat has to go. simple. He just has to, he has no credibility. Hein frankly should be getting a toothbrush ready for some months of leisure if there's any justice....

But...

I hate to say it, but I'm coming to the conclusion Fahey should go too - it's clearly become far, far to personal for him. Reading the correspondence, Fahey comes across as badly as McQuaid.

And that takes some doing. Too many bloody egos, frankly. On all sides.

I'm actually getting a bit frustrated with WADA here, well Fahey anyway - not because of UCIIC, that's a perfectly rational decision; but some of this stuff seems, well, almost obstructive for the sake of it. I know the UCI are useless ***, John, but WADA shouldn't stoop to the same bloody level...

I'm pretty bloody depressed right now about the whole future - we're going to throw this chance away just like we did Festina....

Could you be specific as to which parts of Fahey's letter you find "far, far to (sic) personal"? Personally, everything he says sounds firm, legal, specific and reasoned. I don't see anything in the least bit personal in his letter. If he sounds a bit impatient with Pat, well--trying to have some sort of a discussion with a habitual liar can force one to state things a little bluntly. This is not one of those "there's blame on both sides" kind of things. The blame is entirely on the the UCI and McQuack's side. WADA would not work with the UCIIC because the terms of their mandate were deeply problematic. The UCIIC tried to change those terms, insisting that a TRC committee would be a necessary. The UCI then, unilaterally--without consulting the UCIIC or WADA--dissolved the UCIIC. If Fahey sounds a tad aggrieved, that would seem to be the logical result of trying to reform a sport governed by a totally corrupt and criminal ******-bag.

 

[peterst6906]

Fine, but what exactly has Fahey said or done that is wrong? (Same question to MV)

Nothing that I can see in this particular issue. Fahey has a long history in politics in NSW that where not everything was above board. My mistrust of him stems from there. I don't trust him based on my knowledge and experience of him as a minister and premier.

 

[rata de sentina]

C
I hate to say it, but I'm coming to the conclusion Fahey should go too - it's clearly become far, far to personal for him. Reading the correspondence, Fahey comes across as badly as McQuaid..

I had a good laugh at this since Fahey is polite and reserved compared to his predecessor. Di*k Pound would have had apoplexy by now.

Let's face it WADA have been frustrated by the UCI for pretty much their entire history, the time for a temperate and modest response are long gone. Like the rest of us WADA are acutely aware that Pat and Hein and associated cronies have to go and like the rest of us they are frustrated by the stonewalling and the transparent and hamfisted wriggling and squirming.

 

[martinvickers]

Could you be specific as to which parts of Fahey's letter you find "far, far to (sic) personal"?

I didn't say the letter was too personal, that's a straw man i'm afraid.

I mean the whole situation. A public *****fight over a number of days between a sports federation, however corrupt, and a doping body just depresses me, in terms of actually doing something to FIX THE BLOOD SPORT!

Maybe it's the lawyer in me, but if you have a quasi-judicial role, which WADA do, you don't really get to be 'impatient', merited or otherwise...regardless of provocation, if you rise to it, you are at risk of having your decisions overturned, and the whole process grinding to a halt. Indeed, sometimes if a counsel has a genuinely crap case, its not entirely unheard of to deliberately attempt to get mileage out of goading the judge.

As for the letter, nothing personal in the content, though given the quasi-judicial nature of WADA, the tone is...unhelpful, and possibly self defeating.

Now let me repeat. I want Pat Sacked. I frankly want Hein Jailed. I have absolutely no remit for the bloody UCI. But this exchange may well get the juices going in a place like this, where people enjoy confrontation both as participants and spectator sport - but in the real world I genuinely fear it will delay actual solutions. And I find that depressing.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I didn't say the letter was too personal, that's a straw man i'm afraid.

This is what you wrote,
I hate to say it, but I'm coming to the conclusion Fahey should go too - it's clearly become far, far to personal for him. Reading the correspondence, Fahey comes across as badly as McQuaid.

.....so Wallace was correct in asking the way they did:

I mean the whole situation. A public *****fight over a number of days between a sports federation, however corrupt, and a doping body just depresses me, in terms of actually doing something to FIX THE BLOOD SPORT!

It was not public until the UCI leaked it.

Maybe it's the lawyer in me, but if you have a quasi-judicial role, which WADA do, you don't really get to be 'impatient', merited or otherwise...regardless of provocation, if you rise to it, you are at risk of having your decisions overturned, and the whole process grinding to a halt. Indeed, sometimes if a counsel has a genuinely crap case, its not entirely unheard of to deliberately attempt to get mileage out of goading the judge.

As for the letter, nothing personal in the content, though given the quasi-judicial nature of WADA, the tone is...unhelpful, and possibly self defeating.

irrelvant

Now let me repeat. I want Pat Sacked. I frankly want Hein Jailed. I have absolutely no remit for the bloody UCI. But this exchange may well get the juices going in a place like this, where people enjoy confrontation both as participants and spectator sport - but in the real world I genuinely fear it will delay actual solutions. And I find that depressing.

Hmm, to address that I will refer you to what you wrote and I highlighted in the Blue above.

WADA could assist (indeed must assist) in "actual solutions", it is the UCI who have attempted at every point to frustrate and avoid that.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I hate to say it, but I'm coming to the conclusion Fahey should go too - it's clearly become far, far to personal for him. Reading the correspondence, Fahey comes across as badly as McQuaid.

In English, when you mention something in one sentence, then carry on in the same paragraph with a similar slant, it is entirely reasonable to link the two ideas together. (cf a cremation mention not too long ago).

Could you be specific as to which parts of Fahey's letter you find "far, far to (sic) personal"?

I didn't say the letter was too personal, that's a straw man i'm afraid.

It is NOT a strawman. You linked "Fahey .. personal" with "correspondence" in a thread about the UCIIC and the fact that it is gone, and under discussion is the recently released letter from WADA to Pat.



I have no idea why Pat published the WADA letter. Perhaps I grew tired of reading it properly, but it sounded completely reasonable. And made Pat look like an idiot for
1. publishing it
2. thinking publishing it takes the heat off his duplicitous handling of the UCIIC and initial rejection of a T&RC (remember that? No, Pat said, we are not going to have a T&RC)


If you are serious that Fahey is making things too "personal", why not provide one piece of evidence for said claim?

The tone, etc, that you mention, has nothing to do with the public, and is basically saying: the main problem with the sport of cycling is that, for too long, the fox has been guarding the hen house, and now the UCIIC hen house is being guarded by the UCI fox as well, and no doubt if the UCI get their way, the T&RC hen house will also be surrounded by and infiltrated by UCI foxes. And it's NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

Fahey or WADA is calling UCI on their BS.

Privately.

Fahey almost certainly does NOT come across as bad as McQuaid. WTF are you talking about?

Who else is going to do that? Who else has any sort of authority to do that? Noone. IOC don't care about doping, just doping scandal, which they hand off to WADA to deal with entirely.

For my money, it's WADA who SHOULD be talking to UCI in this way, tone and all. And they are doing it privately and professionally.

You disagree, say it's getting too personal.

Who, in your lawyer-minded quasi-judicial analogied opinion, can and should give UCI a swift talking to?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

i had a good laugh at this since fahey is polite and reserved compared to his predecessor. Di*k pound would have had apoplexy by now.

Let's face it wada have been frustrated by the uci for pretty much their entire history, the time for a temperate and modest response are long gone. Like the rest of us wada are acutely aware that pat and hein and associated cronies have to go and like the rest of us they are frustrated by the stonewalling and the transparent and hamfisted wriggling and squirming.

+ 1

 

[rata de sentina]

I didn't say the letter was too personal, that's a straw man i'm afraid.

No. It's a perfectly valid interpretation of what you wrote. It may not be what you meant but characterising it as a "strawman" suggests wilful misinterpretation by just about everone else here, which is wrong. Thanks for necessarily clarifying your original statement which led to all that confusion.

Anyway I still disagree with you, it's seems quite naive to think that some kind of private discussion between WADA and UCI is going "FIX THE BLOOD SPORT" as you put it. Current WADA method of private and public pressure is far more likely to work.

 

[martinvickers]

Amend your tone, Wiggo. Then I might consider discussing the matter with you.

Your agressive manner/tactic, may work with others. They won't with me.

 

[skippy]

Another day has passed , Friday is so much closer , yet NOBODY , visiting this thread , has chosen to act !

Huffing & puffing to the amusement of the aigle tag team , who are gleefully preparing to browbeat the Management Committee , back into their foxholes , until the current furore passes .

Whilst i am on the " ignore " of so many , i would remind you that you can find the following in my post on 2nd Oct 2012 :

http://www.parrabuddy.blogspot.com/Petitioningchange :

" In a two tier “ Amnesty “, they ( those seeking Amnesty ) , can reveal on the First tier , their misconduct and those associated with them and then the Second tier can be used by those of the Athlete’s team , who see that their principals has not sought “ Amnesty “ , will to preserve “ Their entitlement “ to “Amnesty “ , declare the circumstances that caused them to be at jeopardy . With the Athletes ( Past & Present ) knowing that they risk “ LIFE TIME BANS “ from ANY form of Sport Worldwide , there can be little doubt that they will act to use the first Tier entry to “ AMNESTY “!

Those being found out in the Second Tier , will not be able to avoid the “ Double Jeopardy “ and thus risk Government action as well as “ Life TIME BANS “! Their familieswill risk Jeopardy ALSO ! “

Days later i posted :

http://www.parrabuddy.blogspot.com/Letterstoheadsofgovernments

Inertia , seems to have gripped most of the 10430+ listed as viewing this thread ! little wonder that @jaimiefuller , appears to have lost patience !

Frankly , i do not care if you sign onto my petition :

http://www.change.org/petitions/wada-create-an-amnesty-in-all-sports …

There was another , created by a Clinic member :

http://www.change.org/petitions/international-cycling-union-aka-the-uci-...

currently 895 signed on there !

UNLESS & UNTIL , UCI Management Committee see , a GROUND SWELL of support from GRASSROOTS Cycling Fans , they will continue to feast at the " Swill trough " , that is provided by the largesse , dispensed by the aigle tag team !

WHO CAN BLAME THEM ?

STOP WHINING !

ACT !

 

[skippy]

My latest comment to the Cyclingnews Article :

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/comment-why-no-one-will-win-cyclings-war-of-words

" This is my latest comment to the CNF/Clinic thread :
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?p=1126245&posted=1#post1126245

" Another day has passed , Friday is so much closer , yet NOBODY , visiting this thread , has chosen to act !

Huffing & puffing to the amusement of the aigle tag team , who are gleefully preparing to browbeat the Management Committee , back into their foxholes , until the current furore passes .

Whilst i am on the " ignore " of so many , i would remind you that you can find the following in my post on 2nd Oct 2012 :

http://www.parrabuddy.blogspot.com/Petitioningchange :

" In a two tier “ Amnesty “, they ( those seeking Amnesty ) , can reveal on the First tier , their misconduct and those associated with them and then the Second tier can be used by those of the Athlete’s team , who see that their principals has not sought “ Amnesty “ , will to preserve “ Their entitlement “ to “Amnesty “ , declare the circumstances that caused them to be at jeopardy . With the Athletes ( Past & Present ) knowing that they risk “ LIFE TIME BANS “ from ANY form of Sport Worldwide , there can be little doubt that they will act to use the first Tier entry to “ AMNESTY “!

Those being found out in the Second Tier , will not be able to avoid the “ Double Jeopardy “ and thus risk Government action as well as “ Life TIME BANS “! Their familieswill risk Jeopardy ALSO ! “

Days later i posted :

http://www.parrabuddy.blogspot.com/L...sofgovernments

Inertia , seems to have gripped most of the 10430+ listed as viewing this thread ! little wonder that @jaimiefuller , appears to have lost patience !

Frankly , i do not care if you sign onto my petition :

http://www.change.org/petitions/wada...-in-all-sports …

There was another , created by a Clinic member :

http://www.change.org/petitions/inte...n-aka-the-uci-...

currently 895 signed on there !

UNLESS & UNTIL , UCI Management Committee see , a GROUND SWELL of support from GRASSROOTS Cycling Fans , they will continue to feast at the " Swill trough " , that is provided by the largesse , dispensed by the aigle tag team !

WHO CAN BLAME THEM ?

STOP WHINING !

ACT !

This is a tweet from " @JaimieFuller ":

SKINS Chairman ‏@jaimiefuller
don't forget CCN/ASADA/AFLD/NADO's/FIFA/ITP/UKAD wow “@leolecocker: @jaimiefuller FFS.....UCI/WADA/UCIIC/TDU/IOC/USADA/ETC OMG! WTF?”

ALL PULLING AGAINST EACH OTHER ?

Wouldn't want to be a racer , these days , with ALL the questions being about the current STUPIDITY that governs their Sport and Employment Prospects !

 

[skippy]

This was a quick reply to my thoughts by @jamiefuller :

http://www.changecyclingnow.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/CCN_Press_Release_300113.pdf

UCI 's duplicity , is becoming ever MORE VISIBLE !

 

[hiero2]

It appears to me now that there is a reason the UCI upped and changed their methods with the "independent" commission. It is usually called collusion.

Go here: http://m.apnews.com/ap/db_268750/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=Thjel2cG
Note especially:

Armstrong attorney Tim Herman responded to USADA's first letter, sent Wednesday, by saying his client's schedule is already full, and besides, "in order to achieve the goal of 'cleaning up cycling,' it must be WADA and the (International Cycling Union) who have overall authority to do so."

By Friday night, Herman strongly suggested Armstrong won't meet with USADA at all but intends to appear before the UCI's planned "truth and reconciliation" commission.

"Why would we cooperate (with USADA)?" Herman said in a telephone interview. "USADA isn't interested in cleaning up cycling. Lance has said, 'I'll be the first guy in the chair when cycling is on trial, truthfully, under oath, in every gory detail.' I think he's going testify where it could actually do some good: With the body that's charged with cleaning up cycling," Herman said.

And we all know by now that Lance stated in the Oprah interview that he would be first in line for a T&R commission. So either McQuaid got the signal, or they talked - but they are working together toward a common objective, and it ain't looking good from where I stand. It means the UCI may indeed weather this storm - and as far as I'm concerned, Pat and Weisel of USACycling must be the next ones out the door. Without at least that much, we will not see any good progress.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

It appears to me now that there is a reason the UCI upped and changed their methods with the "independent" commission. It is usually called collusion.

Go here: http://m.apnews.com/ap/db_268750/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=Thjel2cG
Note especially:

And we all know by now that Lance stated in the Oprah interview that he would be first in line for a T&R commission. So either McQuaid got the signal, or they talked - but they are working together toward a common objective, and it ain't looking good from where I stand. It means the UCI may indeed weather this storm - and as far as I'm concerned, Pat and Weisel of USACycling must be the next ones out the door. Without at least that much, we will not see any good progress.

You have it.
In the piece it says Herman responded to USADAs "first letter" on Wednesday (of last week) - one day later is when the UCI suddenly embrace T&R.
Also, in the correspondence between Fahey & Pat it is clear that Pats intent is Armstrong specific.

 

[JimmyFingers]

It appears to me now that there is a reason the UCI upped and changed their methods with the "independent" commission. It is usually called collusion.

Go here: http://m.apnews.com/ap/db_268750/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=Thjel2cG
Note especially:

And we all know by now that Lance stated in the Oprah interview that he would be first in line for a T&R commission. So either McQuaid got the signal, or they talked - but they are working together toward a common objective, and it ain't looking good from where I stand. It means the UCI may indeed weather this storm - and as far as I'm concerned, Pat and Weisel of USACycling must be the next ones out the door. Without at least that much, we will not see any good progress.

Interesting sidestep, McQuaid trying to control the narrative and drip any information out rather than a flood that would implicate them. At the moment they are the little boy with their finger in the ****, whether they can stem the flow completely is another matter. It's astonishing how obvious they are being: they clearly feel secure.

Either secure or desperate

 

[del1962]

Sounds like WADA are upset with the UCI bombing the UCIIC

 

[skippy]

With @Tanni_GT tweeting about the UCI farce , yesterday , i thought it appropriate to remind people , that the 42 " Voting Delegates of UCI " , need to be continously reminded , that they are THERE to serve the needs of their MEMBERS , NOT their PERSONAL INTERESTS , or , their pockets !

Don't care how people contact the " 42 " , telepathy & smoke signals , are 2 ways , i am certain that do not work !

Currently the Irish are the ONLY Federation able to vent their feelings , but when the results are in next weekend , it will be time to make certain that other National Federations , call for " Extraordinary General Meetings " to ensure that as , phat the rat , stated , " it is a fair and transparent election"!

Dirty tricks , last week , resulted in the Russian , putting matters before the UCI Ethics committee , i feel sure this will be repeated continually , during the period left until Firenze !

 

[DirtyWorks]

With @Tanni_GT tweeting about the UCI farce , yesterday , i thought it appropriate to remind people , that the 42 " Voting Delegates of UCI " , need to be continously reminded , that they are THERE to serve the needs of their MEMBERS , NOT their PERSONAL INTERESTS , or , their pockets !

Entirely untrue. Look at the structure of the election. No one voting has to stand any scrutiny from rank-and-file members. They don't even have to listen to the member federations that elected the person voting. Check the end of the McQuaid thread. There is a very revealing letter from the Polish federation president.

Using the Polish president's letter as the starting point, the European federations voted Makarov as their representative. Makarov's got the vote. McQuaid offers Makarov a more senior role in the UCI in exchange for his vote. Makarov doesn't have to listen to the federations if Pat could be trusted to deliver a more senior position inside the UCI to Makarov. That's just the beginning of the political calculations.