del1962 said:
According to the his doping documents, he didn't take anything at the 2006 Giro and there he won the time trial. I don't picture Froome beating Ullrich doped or undoped in a time trial.
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According to the his doping documents, he didn't take anything at the 2006 Giro and there he won the time trial. I don't picture Froome beating Ullrich doped or undoped in a time trial.
del1962 said:
it's hard to tell how bad a clean Froome would be- but Ullrich would beat him on one leg
thehog said:
My comments weren't a defense of Ullrich, nor do I have any idea where he "drew the line". I was simply pointing out that one need not be a top-tier rider to afford to utilize the autologous transfusions themselves.
To be able to afford a comprehensive program that allows the optimal use of those transfusions, well that's quite another story.
I suppose at the end of the day, even a dom using transfusions alone might have a better chance of their effectiveness than someone using EPO (which has shown significant variability amongst users/responders), but that's a huge maybe.
I asked about Jan competing in some type of pirate type race against retired pros from his era such as Armstrong etc.
Apparently this was discussed a while back but probably would never happen since no sponsor would touch it.
A shame some of the questions will never be answered.
The riders of that era against new talent. It would be a glorious event to behold. At least to me.
Apparently this was discussed a while back but probably would never happen since no sponsor would touch it.
A shame some of the questions will never be answered.
The riders of that era against new talent. It would be a glorious event to behold. At least to me.
del1962 said:
Jan is a martyr and a nice guy, no way he loses to a guy on a dominant team with a DB that won the Tour as many times as Jan that just happens to be a knight.
I don't see how anybody anybody reasonably predict the outcome of a race between riders from different eras with varying degrees of doping influence, particularly when one is an admitted cheat.
This is the farce that is pro cycling.
thehog
BANNED
jdog117 said:
No gurantees that anybody would be dope free, plus old retired guys wouldn't have enough incentive to train themselves into top shape for such an endeavor. You could pay them handsomely, but then again that would encourage doping.
thehog
BANNED
fruit bars with eyes said:
Clean Wiggins, clean Froome in one lane allowed to draft would still get beaten by a clean Jan in the other lane.
thehog
BANNED
Fatclimber said:
But you could have proper anti-doping. Full blood test before and after. Night before and morning of the race plus a watcher.
Not this UCI Mickey Mouse anti-doping.
It would be like a WBC Boxing bout. 3 man teams. Up Ventoux.
Made for TV sport.
Helmet cams, the whole shebang.
Get P&P on board. They'll commentate.
thehog said:
Team composition?
Jan, Vino, Sinkewitz(?)
Vs
Lance, Roberto, Floyd
Vs
Alberto, Dawggie Dawg, Andy
This could be lots of fun!
thehog said:
I think a lot of people would for a lot of reasons.
BTW: Jan expects no reaction from Focus over their , shall we say misdirection of the facts.
thehog
BANNED
MacRoadie said:
That's cool.
Landis already deatiled that the riders shot the breeze over the number bags they had left and marks on their arms.
Not many secrets in peloton in that era.
Well except Lance working with UCI to take down the not normals.
Fuentes had a revolving door back in the day. The coffee shop across the road was a who's who of pro cycling.
But it's ok. Jan had two sugars in his latte. Hardcore that boy.
thehog
BANNED
jdog117 said:
My friend thanks for the update.
Would you know much on what Jan meant about UCI protection and Lance?
Does he extrapolate on this at all?
I like the way some are making assumptions on doping as if they were doing it or using their own personal logic to analyze someone else.
Yea, someone wrote a book so everything must be as they wrote, they would never ever lie, even though they had lied N times before
They would obviously steam roll everyone they knew doped because they are spilling their guts, not that those people just might have a tail to be stepped on and might leave out a few choice dopers because it might bite them later or have helped them out and are giving them a chance or letting them slide. Has that thought ever entered anyone's mind?
Not everything that is written is 100% true or a full on confession, its more of a filtered acknowledgement of what might of happened. Just try to recount any dicey thing(s) you might of done, who gets thrown under the bus and who gets to be black marker-ed out of the story? Even if its because they are such a small player in the story they get left out, but still a player in the story.
Then, no way someone could blood dope on the cheap and not die? Yea, some of you need to visit a third world hospital, not everyone owns a Siberia Freezer and still lives to tell about it. Just ask your local wanna-be med student (as in not a med student yet) or paramedic, they've done things the average person would pass out in seeing. Not that I know of these things first hand
Ulle was training with T-Mobile before he was a pro and the rest knew he was good enough then. Management took him in and sheltered him and I'm sure whether it be his team or his teammates took him under their program and included him in it even though he was still a snot nosed kid with no money, as it was the best thing for the team. And its not like he couldn't borrow the money much like most of you's borrowed money from your parents/family members to buy a big ticket item. Ulle will only say the bare minimum and will only out himself if only part of himself, maybe when he's on his death bed he might tell us all exactly what happened but I wouldn't hold my breath any time soon for a full confession.
Yea, someone wrote a book so everything must be as they wrote, they would never ever lie, even though they had lied N times before
They would obviously steam roll everyone they knew doped because they are spilling their guts, not that those people just might have a tail to be stepped on and might leave out a few choice dopers because it might bite them later or have helped them out and are giving them a chance or letting them slide. Has that thought ever entered anyone's mind? Not everything that is written is 100% true or a full on confession, its more of a filtered acknowledgement of what might of happened. Just try to recount any dicey thing(s) you might of done, who gets thrown under the bus and who gets to be black marker-ed out of the story? Even if its because they are such a small player in the story they get left out, but still a player in the story.
Then, no way someone could blood dope on the cheap and not die? Yea, some of you need to visit a third world hospital, not everyone owns a Siberia Freezer and still lives to tell about it. Just ask your local wanna-be med student (as in not a med student yet) or paramedic, they've done things the average person would pass out in seeing. Not that I know of these things first hand
Ulle was training with T-Mobile before he was a pro and the rest knew he was good enough then. Management took him in and sheltered him and I'm sure whether it be his team or his teammates took him under their program and included him in it even though he was still a snot nosed kid with no money, as it was the best thing for the team. And its not like he couldn't borrow the money much like most of you's borrowed money from your parents/family members to buy a big ticket item. Ulle will only say the bare minimum and will only out himself if only part of himself, maybe when he's on his death bed he might tell us all exactly what happened but I wouldn't hold my breath any time soon for a full confession.
thehog said:
On a flat road.
Kinda depends on the gradient, eh?
Trrrrrooooooooooolllliiinnnggg.
Long time lurker here. I'll admit that I am/was a huge Ullrich fan. I have some questions about the consistency of the RR picture of Ullrich. I think he is pretty much an unknown quantity, but I feel he'd have been a much better rider than say a Riis in a clear peloton.
First of all: how much of an indication is training camp climbing form? I mean Ullrich seems to have a body that gains weight easily (I sympathise), so getting 2-3 kgs of extra fat which isn't actually THAT hard to do during winter, especially if you are a tad bit indisciplined about eating compared to the other skinny dudes will make it REAL hard to keep up with others, or at least will require you to huff-puff. We know 2-3 kgs is generous in case of Ullrich.
I think people made a bigger deal of this whole body fat% deal than should have been. It's fairly easy to lose 4 kgs of weight a month so even 12 kgs aren't that big of a problem in january, if you want to prepare for July and don't really want to compete in climbing until then.
Second: off-season detraining. I'm a beginner cyclist so no first hand experience about this. Does off-season detraining hit everyone equally hard? Does "mile experience" or "engine size" or whatever make detraining hit you less hard? That could be another reason why some cyclists excel in training camps and early races (low body fat%, small detraining but smaller gains by training as well) and fade during the year.
Third: wattage. I think it'd be really interesting to estimate Ullrich's wattages through the years. I've read somewhere that he pushed 500 watts on Madeleine in 1998. I just checked the youtube video and he is absolutely freaking amazing on that climb. Not 2001 amazing (where he was probably the 2nd, 3rd best climber in the race), but still. I remember Pantani saying that it was like sitting behind a motor bike. He did this after a day where he was hit super hard by cold and starving, not really in top shape.
I've also read somewhere that he could go about 440-450 in the Pyrenees in 2003. Him being around 72kgs/ that's over the magical-natural '6' W/kgs, however quite far from the utterly ridiculous '7' he did on Madeleine. This seems quite in line with the 'no EPO' trends, however if he could push his hematocrit to ~50 with bbs, it's still pretty far off from 1997-1998.
So how do these stuff fit together? I think he was about 1-2 minutes slower on climbs in the 2000s than could have been on EPO in the 90s. What's even more interesting that Armstrong OTOH, who was on the very same **** on the 90s just exploded in the 00s. I don't really buy the 'he lost weight' thing, because he also lost power and he wasn't an excellent time trialist before his cancer. What the hell was going on with Armstrong? I mean Ullrich was a dope-junkie right? In the standardized doping era, he was head-and-shoulders above everyone else on a good day, Pantani being a comparable climber and noone was close being a TT-ist. What can we attribute Armstrong's ridiculous power improvements to?
If we take Tyler Hamilton's book as truth, then it seems that Ullrich still had a pretty monstrous race in 2004 where he 'only' came fourth and had a wrong BB.
Also, 1999. He was a beast in 1999 in the Vuelta, but nowhere near as beasty as before. He was regularly beaten on climbs and fought really hard (and got lucky with Olano screwing stuff up) to get the title. I believe he was cleanly (not clean) in the 1999 Vuelta.
Ullrich is a really interesting character in the new doping era, because unlike Armstrong he had serious swings in parameters like weight, form, wattage, climbing ability and style, and also has a reported history of screwed up BBs and stuff like that.
What I want to get on that I somewhat agree with RR, but I think there are a lot of contrasting stuff that just don't simply fit the scenario.
Since Ulle's weight is known to be 72-74 kgs in races, it should be pretty easy to get some power calculations for him.
First of all: how much of an indication is training camp climbing form? I mean Ullrich seems to have a body that gains weight easily (I sympathise), so getting 2-3 kgs of extra fat which isn't actually THAT hard to do during winter, especially if you are a tad bit indisciplined about eating compared to the other skinny dudes will make it REAL hard to keep up with others, or at least will require you to huff-puff. We know 2-3 kgs is generous in case of Ullrich.
I think people made a bigger deal of this whole body fat% deal than should have been. It's fairly easy to lose 4 kgs of weight a month so even 12 kgs aren't that big of a problem in january, if you want to prepare for July and don't really want to compete in climbing until then.
Second: off-season detraining. I'm a beginner cyclist so no first hand experience about this. Does off-season detraining hit everyone equally hard? Does "mile experience" or "engine size" or whatever make detraining hit you less hard? That could be another reason why some cyclists excel in training camps and early races (low body fat%, small detraining but smaller gains by training as well) and fade during the year.
Third: wattage. I think it'd be really interesting to estimate Ullrich's wattages through the years. I've read somewhere that he pushed 500 watts on Madeleine in 1998. I just checked the youtube video and he is absolutely freaking amazing on that climb. Not 2001 amazing (where he was probably the 2nd, 3rd best climber in the race), but still. I remember Pantani saying that it was like sitting behind a motor bike. He did this after a day where he was hit super hard by cold and starving, not really in top shape.
I've also read somewhere that he could go about 440-450 in the Pyrenees in 2003. Him being around 72kgs/ that's over the magical-natural '6' W/kgs, however quite far from the utterly ridiculous '7' he did on Madeleine. This seems quite in line with the 'no EPO' trends, however if he could push his hematocrit to ~50 with bbs, it's still pretty far off from 1997-1998.
So how do these stuff fit together? I think he was about 1-2 minutes slower on climbs in the 2000s than could have been on EPO in the 90s. What's even more interesting that Armstrong OTOH, who was on the very same **** on the 90s just exploded in the 00s. I don't really buy the 'he lost weight' thing, because he also lost power and he wasn't an excellent time trialist before his cancer. What the hell was going on with Armstrong? I mean Ullrich was a dope-junkie right? In the standardized doping era, he was head-and-shoulders above everyone else on a good day, Pantani being a comparable climber and noone was close being a TT-ist. What can we attribute Armstrong's ridiculous power improvements to?
If we take Tyler Hamilton's book as truth, then it seems that Ullrich still had a pretty monstrous race in 2004 where he 'only' came fourth and had a wrong BB.
Also, 1999. He was a beast in 1999 in the Vuelta, but nowhere near as beasty as before. He was regularly beaten on climbs and fought really hard (and got lucky with Olano screwing stuff up) to get the title. I believe he was cleanly (not clean) in the 1999 Vuelta.
Ullrich is a really interesting character in the new doping era, because unlike Armstrong he had serious swings in parameters like weight, form, wattage, climbing ability and style, and also has a reported history of screwed up BBs and stuff like that.
What I want to get on that I somewhat agree with RR, but I think there are a lot of contrasting stuff that just don't simply fit the scenario.
Since Ulle's weight is known to be 72-74 kgs in races, it should be pretty easy to get some power calculations for him.
Another thing I forgot is the transformation that RR mentions.
It'd be really interesting to see what Ulle's training plan was. From how RR paints it, it would seem to me that Ullrich began PED enhanced interval training in June which will CAN actually give you a lift of about 10 % in threshold and 'anaerobic' (i hate the phrase anaerobc) wattage and also enhance fat burning.
I could perfectly imagine that Ulle did a lot of miles (and a ton of eating) from january to may with low intensity, then got started on the juice, EPO + vitamin + hormones for regeneration and did two interval sessions a day. With some sleeping pills and HGH added, this could improve him crazy fast while also getting him burn fat like a maniac (especially if he used some kind of fat burners too). It's not the healthiest thing but hey.
What needed organization here is th BBs again, because some of them could go wrong and it wouldn't have been advisable to get blood from him during the time he did those crazy amounts of intervals.
This plan seems like a good fit for everything and would explain how sometimes he would be on dead legs in the beginning of the TdF. I think he clearly overtrained.
I wouldn't attribute his plan to laziness, because doing two full intervals (like vomit inducing intervals) a day is absolutely brutal. Only crazy people are able to do it, only with PEDs.
It'd be really interesting to see what Ulle's training plan was. From how RR paints it, it would seem to me that Ullrich began PED enhanced interval training in June which will CAN actually give you a lift of about 10 % in threshold and 'anaerobic' (i hate the phrase anaerobc) wattage and also enhance fat burning.
I could perfectly imagine that Ulle did a lot of miles (and a ton of eating) from january to may with low intensity, then got started on the juice, EPO + vitamin + hormones for regeneration and did two interval sessions a day. With some sleeping pills and HGH added, this could improve him crazy fast while also getting him burn fat like a maniac (especially if he used some kind of fat burners too). It's not the healthiest thing but hey.
What needed organization here is th BBs again, because some of them could go wrong and it wouldn't have been advisable to get blood from him during the time he did those crazy amounts of intervals.
This plan seems like a good fit for everything and would explain how sometimes he would be on dead legs in the beginning of the TdF. I think he clearly overtrained.
I wouldn't attribute his plan to laziness, because doing two full intervals (like vomit inducing intervals) a day is absolutely brutal. Only crazy people are able to do it, only with PEDs.
In this weeks Sport Bild Tony says that he still admires Ullrich and likes him and doesn't consider him a cheater.
Tony says that cycling had a doping culture and he doesn't judge anyone who used doping in order to keep up with the doping culture. He thinks that riders didn't really have a chance to say no back then.
Tony says that cycling had a doping culture and he doesn't judge anyone who used doping in order to keep up with the doping culture. He thinks that riders didn't really have a chance to say no back then.
After reading all the posts up to now, what is not clear or absolute despite some people claiming to know all, is why Jan was 'selected' to get the BBs and others not?
It is fairly obvious that in the 90's and early 00's economics played no role in any rider obtaining: Cortisol, HGH, Test, and EPO. And, probably all teams had the ability to test for HCT. So, if any donkey could be made into a race horse, and any race horse could further benefit from BBs (1-2%) why Jan? Just because Jan had more money? And, why just the 15 or so top GT riders? Purely economics? No team funding of BB programs for the unlucky GT riders?
Names like CVV and FAndreu have been listed...did they both have high natural HCT's to exclude them from using EPO? What were riders like them raising their HCTs too? Is that the exclusion for getting the BBs? Or was it there inability to stay competitive over 3 weeks, or poor ITT etc...?
It seems fair to say that Jan's high VO2max, natural ability, raw power and ITT prowess, and willingness to take all the other dope, with additional BBs made him the right complex of variables needed to be a potential winner in a GT. There must have been a checklist of necessary 'needs' to make it to the level where spending cash on BBs was going to pay off. I would argue that if all the other donkeys (with low HCTs -superresponder theory etc...) had access to the same dope sans BB, they never wanted to pay for BB or were never given the opportunity to use BBs b/c they lacked the innate athleticism to ascend to that bizarre world where they could use it to cheat better. Their strata in the GT world was not high enough.
I don't think Jan cheated any other rider from those years. He certainly cheated all of us FFS and all the clean riders. But to say that he wasn't capable of winning a GT because of his weight (this has been clarified on the other Jan thread as untrue except for maybe 1-2 TdF starts), unverifiable statements about him always doping pre-1996, Udo B stories, and his lack of competitiveness...is bunk. Imagine another theory, his HCT was not 49.9, he didn't have the teams that UPS/Disco did (especially 2003), and no UCI protection...going to battle against that for all those years... that takes tenacity.
The only riders that were cheated were the ones that never took one single banned drug. Those anonymous riders were all but excluded from racing in that time frame and that makes me very upset. I would have loved to see clean riding back then. I hope this year is clean, but seriously if Andy S, Froome, Valverde and A. Contador are winning; fail.
PS: Shouldn't this thread be renamed to the "Ullrich confession from last year"?
It is fairly obvious that in the 90's and early 00's economics played no role in any rider obtaining: Cortisol, HGH, Test, and EPO. And, probably all teams had the ability to test for HCT. So, if any donkey could be made into a race horse, and any race horse could further benefit from BBs (1-2%) why Jan? Just because Jan had more money? And, why just the 15 or so top GT riders? Purely economics? No team funding of BB programs for the unlucky GT riders?
Names like CVV and FAndreu have been listed...did they both have high natural HCT's to exclude them from using EPO? What were riders like them raising their HCTs too? Is that the exclusion for getting the BBs? Or was it there inability to stay competitive over 3 weeks, or poor ITT etc...?
It seems fair to say that Jan's high VO2max, natural ability, raw power and ITT prowess, and willingness to take all the other dope, with additional BBs made him the right complex of variables needed to be a potential winner in a GT. There must have been a checklist of necessary 'needs' to make it to the level where spending cash on BBs was going to pay off. I would argue that if all the other donkeys (with low HCTs -superresponder theory etc...) had access to the same dope sans BB, they never wanted to pay for BB or were never given the opportunity to use BBs b/c they lacked the innate athleticism to ascend to that bizarre world where they could use it to cheat better. Their strata in the GT world was not high enough.
I don't think Jan cheated any other rider from those years. He certainly cheated all of us FFS and all the clean riders. But to say that he wasn't capable of winning a GT because of his weight (this has been clarified on the other Jan thread as untrue except for maybe 1-2 TdF starts), unverifiable statements about him always doping pre-1996, Udo B stories, and his lack of competitiveness...is bunk. Imagine another theory, his HCT was not 49.9, he didn't have the teams that UPS/Disco did (especially 2003), and no UCI protection...going to battle against that for all those years... that takes tenacity.
The only riders that were cheated were the ones that never took one single banned drug. Those anonymous riders were all but excluded from racing in that time frame and that makes me very upset. I would have loved to see clean riding back then. I hope this year is clean, but seriously if Andy S, Froome, Valverde and A. Contador are winning; fail.
PS: Shouldn't this thread be renamed to the "Ullrich confession from last year"?
!!!!!http://www.zeit.de/2013/27/doping-jan-ullrich/seite-1 !!!!!
Very interesting interview in the German newspaper Zeit!!!!!!!!
In the year 2007 Ullrich did a very long interview in which he told everything about his doping career!!! He didn't take any money for it, he wanted to help cycling.
His ****ing dickheads of laywers pressured him not to release it in the last minutes
What a shame, life would have been so much better for Jan if it was published. His reputation would be so much higher today.
Interesting facts:
Ullrich started doping in 1996. He didn't take anything before 1996.
He was clean in Sydney!!!
He first worked with Fuentes in April of 2003.
Damn it would be so interesting to read that whole thing!
Very interesting interview in the German newspaper Zeit!!!!!!!!
In the year 2007 Ullrich did a very long interview in which he told everything about his doping career!!! He didn't take any money for it, he wanted to help cycling.
His ****ing dickheads of laywers pressured him not to release it in the last minutes
What a shame, life would have been so much better for Jan if it was published. His reputation would be so much higher today.
Interesting facts:
Ullrich started doping in 1996. He didn't take anything before 1996.
He was clean in Sydney!!!
He first worked with Fuentes in April of 2003.
Damn it would be so interesting to read that whole thing!
http://www.srf.ch/player/tv
Swiss documentary about Armstrong and doping:
18:50: Walsh says that Ullrich would have easily beaten Armstrong in a clean field, as he was physically much more gifted as Armstrong!!!!
Swiss documentary about Armstrong and doping:
18:50: Walsh says that Ullrich would have easily beaten Armstrong in a clean field, as he was physically much more gifted as Armstrong!!!!
Bavarianrider said:
Ulle, you liar...
His blood was already in Fuentes fridge in 2004, just see Tomo IV of OP in the usada files.
Gregga said:
Sorry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It was a typo of me!!!! April 2003 the article says, sorry!!!!
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