Universal's Gogulski Questioning Quintana's Basque Country Performance

[Libertine Seguros]

Um again I made absolutely no mention of sky.

U go a long way to showing that moviester is a dopers team. Thanks.

If u can't tell the difference btwn garmin and moviestar god help u. One has a leader who won't admit to doping while being one of the biggest out there. The other tells its riders to tell the truth about there past.

Again my point is that all cyclists- yes, even your favorites- have lost the benefit of the doubt. This is the legacy of the criminal uci. And the longer they stay the same every single performance will be doubted. Get used to it.

My point is, under what criteria are Movistar a worse doping team than, say, Lampre? Cannondale (who are equally led by a a guy who won't admit to doping)? Astana?

I mean, there hasn't been a positive at Abarcá since 2007. That's a pretty good record, no? Ag2r get much less grief for being a doping team and their most recent is September 2012. Astana are run by an unrepentant doper and their most recent that I recall is Contador 2010. Blanco formed from the ashes of a team which used to have a full program, and their most recent doping issue was Barredo being taken off the road halfway through last year. BMC have had internal investigations into Ballan and Santambrogio two years running (2010 and 11) and Frei tested positive in 2010. They are run by the guys behind Phonak. Cannondale are led by a known doper (Basso) who won't confess and they had a team leader (Pellizotti) banned in 2010 for biopass violations. Euskaltel's last positive dope test was Serebryakov last week. Even FDJ have an upheld positive more recently than Movistar - Aurélien Duval's appetite suppressant positive in December 2009. Garmin have a good record on doping while at the team, however their signing policy includes a number of ex-dopers, and their timing on signing Rasmussen and Zirbel was pretty unfortunate. I don't think they've had a positive though, so credit to them for that. Katyusha host more riders who've escaped hits than I've had hot dinners, and have been run by a succession of shady characters, but I think Kolobnev in 2011 was their last positive. Colóm before that. Lampre are led by a doper (Scarponi), their sprinter is another (Petacchi), and their backup sprinter is another (Richeze), and they're involved in Mantova. Lotto are pretty good on doping. Can't recall their last positive. Quick Step also. GreenEdge and Sky are new teams in the last 3-4 years, no positives yet, which is good. Radioshack: Tour 2012, Fränk Schleck. Argos are pretty good against doping. Saxo's last doping issue was Rasmussen's whereabouts thing which isn't really a doping issue, but they have a few known dopers and are run by Riis. And a Vacansoleil contract appears to be better at catching dopers than WADA.

Movistar probably dope. They may not be an organised program team, but I'm pretty certain that at least some of the team will be charging at some point this year. But to specify them as "a doping team" as if there's only a few teams where it goes on is disingenuous. Their position as the de facto Spanish team and their being led by the notorious Valverde precedes them (notwithstanding that when it comes to the ratio known dopers to riders per nationality in the pro péloton, the Americans really aren't in a position to attack the Spaniards on that front), and their signing policy including some riders who've served bans or are suspicious without having ever been caught certainly raises alarm, but taking all interpretation out of the equation their reputation should really be on a par with most of the other teams in the World Tour. Only a few with good rep like FDJ and Garmin, or new teams that haven't amassed the history that Movistar have (let's not forget they more or less invented the template Sky are now catching such grief for), are in clearly better positions. One does surmise, if Quintana had joined Sky and Henao joined Movistar, would Schlanger and Gogulski been singing a different tune, given the respective at least public faces of anti-doping in the two teams?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

If u can't tell the difference btwn garmin and moviestar god help u. One has a leader who won't admit to doping while being one of the biggest out there. The other tells its riders to tell the truth about there past.

To be pedantic, JV only says that if his riders are questioned must they be truthful. The way you've written it makes it sound like if you join Garmin you must admit what you've done. Pretty sure that's wrong.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I take my hat off , right on the money .

Steve Schlanger and Todd Gogulski , both come across as country bumpkins with a KKK flavor .

If anyone wants to raise questions , one that comes to my mind is why Tony Martin was able to take a ITT that was not suited to him??????? It was hilly , full of corners , and to top it off , wet . Very technical , not for a power rider like Tony Martin .
It was more suited to the likes of Henao , Porte , Betancur , Quintana , Contador .
Nevertheless , Tony Martin took it .
What's up with that ???

Do you think doctor Ibarguren may have something to do with Tony Martin success ???????????????

Tony went early before the rain came so the descent was less of an issue, and also Tony's a pretty good climber for a TT specialist. Nothing strange in his win.

 

[karlboss]

To single out quintana and say that cyclists have lost the benefit of doubt was silly. If we look through the palmares of nearly every successful cyclist we'll see a breakthrough performance somewhere. I don't think commentators should question one and ignore others. Depending on your network, question them all or none.

 

[Big Doopie]

My point is, under what criteria are Movistar a worse doping team than, say, Lampre? Cannondale (who are equally led by a a guy who won't admit to doping)? Astana?

I mean, there hasn't been a positive at Abarcá since 2007. That's a pretty good record, no? Ag2r get much less grief for being a doping team and their most recent is September 2012. Astana are run by an unrepentant doper and their most recent that I recall is Contador 2010. Blanco formed from the ashes of a team which used to have a full program, and their most recent doping issue was Barredo being taken off the road halfway through last year. BMC have had internal investigations into Ballan and Santambrogio two years running (2010 and 11) and Frei tested positive in 2010. They are run by the guys behind Phonak. Cannondale are led by a known doper (Basso) who won't confess and they had a team leader (Pellizotti) banned in 2010 for biopass violations. Euskaltel's last positive dope test was Serebryakov last week. Even FDJ have an upheld positive more recently than Movistar - Aurélien Duval's appetite suppressant positive in December 2009. Garmin have a good record on doping while at the team, however their signing policy includes a number of ex-dopers, and their timing on signing Rasmussen and Zirbel was pretty unfortunate. I don't think they've had a positive though, so credit to them for that. Katyusha host more riders who've escaped hits than I've had hot dinners, and have been run by a succession of shady characters, but I think Kolobnev in 2011 was their last positive. Colóm before that. Lampre are led by a doper (Scarponi), their sprinter is another (Petacchi), and their backup sprinter is another (Richeze), and they're involved in Mantova. Lotto are pretty good on doping. Can't recall their last positive. Quick Step also. GreenEdge and Sky are new teams in the last 3-4 years, no positives yet, which is good. Radioshack: Tour 2012, Fränk Schleck. Argos are pretty good against doping. Saxo's last doping issue was Rasmussen's whereabouts thing which isn't really a doping issue, but they have a few known dopers and are run by Riis. And a Vacansoleil contract appears to be better at catching dopers than WADA.

Movistar probably dope. They may not be an organised program team, but I'm pretty certain that at least some of the team will be charging at some point this year. But to specify them as "a doping team" as if there's only a few teams where it goes on is disingenuous. Their position as the de facto Spanish team and their being led by the notorious Valverde precedes them (notwithstanding that when it comes to the ratio known dopers to riders per nationality in the pro péloton, the Americans really aren't in a position to attack the Spaniards on that front), and their signing policy including some riders who've served bans or are suspicious without having ever been caught certainly raises alarm, but taking all interpretation out of the equation their reputation should really be on a par with most of the other teams in the World Tour. Only a few with good rep like FDJ and Garmin, or new teams that haven't amassed the history that Movistar have (let's not forget they more or less invented the template Sky are now catching such grief for), are in clearly better positions. One does surmise, if Quintana had joined Sky and Henao joined Movistar, would Schlanger and Gogulski been singing a different tune, given the respective at least public faces of anti-doping in the two teams?

libertine, i don't disagree with you. again, i am not saying moviestar is any worse than liguigas or lampre either.

um, in fact i didn't. i made absolutely no comparisons whatsoever.

but, frankly every performance is going to continue to be doubted and questioned no matter what. all cyclists have lost the benefit of the doubt. and they should.

until the ici is under different direction this will continue. this is the legacy of all the dopers. if the harm that the likes of armstrong had done was only about them cheating in the races they competed in, it wouldn't be nearly as bad.

the real problem is that they have poisoned every performance, not just in the present and forseable future but we know that they have poisoned even the performances of those who rode before game changers epo and blood doping.

that is simply a fact.

that is what doping does. it ruins the sport because no performance can be sure to be clean. no natural heirarchy so following and enjoying the sport is -- quite frankly -- destroyed or minimized.

getting indignant in defense of one rider is pointless and really rather silly since they are now all muddied until the uci changes and can protect clean riding.

 

[Big Doopie]

To be pedantic, JV only says that if his riders are questioned must they be truthful. The way you've written it makes it sound like if you join Garmin you must admit what you've done. Pretty sure that's wrong.

fair enough.

but the culture of the two teams is drastically different. jv does not support unrepentant dopers. other teams do over and over.

it boggles my mind that people rip into jv, zabriskie, millar, vdv, etc. while supporting the likes of clentadope, valverde, vino, basso, scarponi, etc...

these two groups of riders are literally miles and miles apart.

the latter are scum and as long as they (or their unrepentant like) ride, and fans stupidly support them, the sport has no hope.

 

[The Hitch]

lol, whats so much better about Millar zabriskie and vdv than the others?

Oh and you write "support" and "rip in" as if they were opposites. They are not. It is perfectly possible to rip into someone and support them.

the doping taliban will not tell me who i can and cannot cheer for.

 

[Big Doopie]

lol, whats so much better about Millar zabriskie and vdv than the others?

um...duh.

the doping taliban will not tell me who i can and cannot cheer for.

ah, that explains the lack of insight shown in the first comment.

thanks for the clarification.

 

[Ferminal]

Do people stop doping when they leave Abarca?

 

[Dazed and Confused]

snipped..

it boggles my mind that people rip into jv, zabriskie, millar, vdv, etc. while supporting the likes of clentadope, valverde, vino, basso, scarponi, etc...

more snipping..

The idea of differentiating these blood and epo dopers just because one group send out a press release saying sorry is ridiculous.

We are talking multi year needle users here.

None of them belongs in clean cycling.

 

[nicolassus]

I won't get into how fumed I got over their commentary too much.
As easy as they threw doping accusations, is then just as fair for me to throw ignorance and racism accusations..... By their "you never know" attitude/standards. Fortunately for them, I am not on TV in front of thousands making this heinous accusation like they were when they painted quintana as a doper simply because they didn't know who he was, or because he's not a known European/American. Maybe they also forgot about a bunch of "out of nowhere" Colombians in the 80s/90s that climbed past all the big names then.


So Ill let the real writers deal with it.

http://www.cyclinginquisition.com/2013/04/who-is-nairo-quintana.html?m=1

http://www.sbs.com.au/cyclingcentral/philip-gomes/blog/127664/out-of-nowhere

http://inrng.com/2013/04/the-dark-side-of-the-moon/

 

[Arnout]

I won't get into how fumed I got over their commentary too much.
As easy as they threw doping accusations, is then just as fair for me to throw ignorance and racism accusations..... By their "you never know" attitude/standards. Fortunately for them, I am not on TV in front of thousands making this heinous accusation like they were when they painted quintana as a doper simply because they didn't know who he was, or because he's not a known European/American. Maybe they also forgot about a bunch of "out of nowhere" Colombians in the 80s/90s that climbed past all the big names then.


So Ill let the real writers deal with it.

http://www.cyclinginquisition.com/2013/04/who-is-nairo-quintana.html?m=1

http://www.sbs.com.au/cyclingcentral/philip-gomes/blog/127664/out-of-nowhere

http://inrng.com/2013/04/the-dark-side-of-the-moon/

True. Same thing happens all the time to Eastern European. The implicit level of racism displayed by some western Europeans and Americans regarding this is sometimes staggering.

 

[Escarabajo]

I won't get into how fumed I got over their commentary too much.
As easy as they threw doping accusations, is then just as fair for me to throw ignorance and racism accusations..... By their "you never know" attitude/standards. Fortunately for them, I am not on TV in front of thousands making this heinous accusation like they were when they painted quintana as a doper simply because they didn't know who he was, or because he's not a known European/American. Maybe they also forgot about a bunch of "out of nowhere" Colombians in the 80s/90s that climbed past all the big names then.


So Ill let the real writers deal with it.

http://www.cyclinginquisition.com/2013/04/who-is-nairo-quintana.html?m=1

http://www.sbs.com.au/cyclingcentral/philip-gomes/blog/127664/out-of-nowhere

http://inrng.com/2013/04/the-dark-side-of-the-moon/

Thanks for your information.

Let's just wait and see, but as far as I am concerned we found the one for Colombia. Let's hope for the best.

 

[Cloxxki]

True. Same thing happens all the time to Eastern European. The implicit level of racism displayed by some western Europeans and Americans regarding this is sometimes staggering.

Try getting into any club with a mate who is a person of color in Ukraine and tell me again about racism

But yeah, when it's about doping, Eastern Europe is being given a really bad rep.
While actually, Russia is leading the way in getting track&field athletes banned. Which other nation is performing any similar clean-up?

In a clean peloton, I would actually not have an issue with performances as described above.
I took part in amateur level Mountainbiking, but we were by no means messing about. It was hard racing alright. Some guys just were strongest all season. Sandbaggers. Differences between riders were actually very predictable. When I'd show up to a race better rested than usually and place 13th in stead of 20-30th as tpyical (100+ fields), people would come up to me telling me how well I was racing.
i had little doubt that if I would go to the next level of training and nutricion, I would be winning a whole lot of races. Especially stage races as they require a special level of fitness, one day waking up with super legs as sometime inexplicably happenns just doesn't get you through those a winner.

If you accept that there is still doping at the top level at a given race, then anyone performing above expectation is pretty much suspect. Which sucks, and really the whole race then sucks in my opinion.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

um...duh.



ah, that explains the lack of insight shown in the first comment.

thanks for the clarification.

Millar only confessed when the evidence was waved in front of his face. Now he spends his time being sanctimonious. I don't see how this makes him a good person. Guys like DZ and CVDV might now be dedicated to clean cycling, but a guy like Damiano Cunego rides for a team with a worse reputation yet has all but implicated himself.

Millar is a sanctimonious fellow who creates a lot of hot air. But his confession only came when the evidence was - almost literally - waved in his face. Guys like Bernhard Kohl, Emanuele Sella and Patrik Sinkewitz have probably done more that directly contributes to the fight against doping in the sport, even if it might not be popular or what we want to hear. How about Rasmussen, or Manzano, Jaksche, or Simeoni? Heras allegedly talked big style, which is part of why he's been persona non grata. Wouldn't we rather have guys like that, than guys who come out and say "oh yea I doped, but at least I'm really sorry about it so please like me", like the comic book villain who insists he will only use his powers for good in the future. Millar's way is a pretty wishy-washy comeback, talking the good anti-doping talk, but ultimately not doing anything publicly that has any real substance in the fight.

Besides, didn't Basso say he was sorry? Seem to recall he did. If we believe him, he didn't even dope. So you can't put him in the camp with the Scarponis and Valverdes.

 

[Big Doopie]

Besides, Basso...If we believe him, he didn't even dope.

Rotflmao.

This is truly freakin' hopeless.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Rotflmao.

This is truly freakin' hopeless.

What are you on about? Basso never lies about doping, doping lies for him.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

True. Same thing happens all the time to Eastern European. The implicit level of racism displayed by some western Europeans and Americans regarding this is sometimes staggering.

it's by far the worst from the anglophones and espeically the americans. they are complete tools. we all know usa is by far the worst in doping and they've always been. check docu's like bigger faster stronger and not to mention what team and country did lance perform?

it's some completely undeserved attitude of superiority they have not only in sports but in anything.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

To single out quintana and say that cyclists have lost the benefit of doubt was silly. If we look through the palmares of nearly every successful cyclist we'll see a breakthrough performance somewhere. I don't think commentators should question one and ignore others. Depending on your network, question them all or none.

except quintana's breakthroiugh performances came at age 17(2nd in vuelta porvenir) and since he only started cycling at age 15, I don't see anything suspicious at all for outsiders

 

[noddy69]

Its the timing of the question that is way out of line. If the questions had been asked when e went with the trio of usual suspects in the vuelta then fair enough. Question all 4 performances against a strong field. Questioning him in a hilly TT is something else if you have not questioned the previous performance.

It stands to reason that if he can hang and be better than the three amigos then he has every right to be up there at the very top in that style of TT.

Ask the right questions at the right time.

 

[Benotti69]

I think the rise of Colombians in the peloton shows the blood vector doping has receded but other doping forms have taken its place, which Colombians can also benefit from.

 

[Caruut]

Its the timing of the question that is way out of line. If the questions had been asked when e went with the trio of usual suspects in the vuelta then fair enough. Question all 4 performances against a strong field. Questioning him in a hilly TT is something else if you have not questioned the previous performance.

It stands to reason that if he can hang and be better than the three amigos then he has every right to be up there at the very top in that style of TT.

Ask the right questions at the right time.

That's the key, isn't it?

I think it's great that cycling commentators are willing to stick themselves out there and question what they see as suspicious performances. That's a good place for the sport to be in.

What isn't great is when they call out performances that aren't that suspicious, certainly not relative to others at the top of the sport. On that podium there were two riders who weren't all that suspicious and Richie Porte. If you want to look at the País Vasco results and start calling people out, it's clear who the first Porte of call should be.

 

[The Hitch]

um...duh.



ah, that explains the lack of insight shown in the first comment.

thanks for the clarification.

If you don't have an answer to what what was a perfectly simple question I'm going to assume that your a fan of the former and not the latter because the former are all Anglophone and the latter are not.

Try getting into any club with a mate who is a person of color in Ukraine and tell me again about racism


.

Racism from football hooligans in Ukraine does not excuse racism towards Easter Europeans from people who claim to know better and have a far bigger voice so to speak.

 

[The Hitch]

Try getting into any club with a mate who is a person of color in Ukraine and tell me again about racism

But yeah, when it's about doping, Eastern Europe is being given a really bad rep.
While actually, Russia is leading the way in getting track&field athletes banned. Which other nation is performing any similar clean-up?

In a clean peloton, I would actually not have an issue with performances as described above.
I took part in amateur level Mountainbiking, but we were by no means messing about. It was hard racing alright. Some guys just were strongest all season. Sandbaggers. Differences between riders were actually very predictable. When I'd show up to a race better rested than usually and place 13th in stead of 20-30th as tpyical (100+ fields), people would come up to me telling me how well I was racing.
i had little doubt that if I would go to the next level of training and nutricion, I would be winning a whole lot of races. Especially stage races as they require a special level of fitness, one day waking up with super legs as sometime inexplicably happenns just doesn't get you through those a winner.

If you accept that there is still doping at the top level at a given race, then anyone performing above expectation is pretty much suspect. Which sucks, and really the whole race then sucks in my opinion.

Racism from football hooligans in Ukraine does not excuse racism towards Easter Europeans from people who claim to know better and have a far bigger voice so to speak.

 

[The Hitch]

Rotflmao.

This is truly freakin' hopeless.

So no answer to his actual point. He tore to pieces your idea that we should hold Millar on some sort of pedestal over the others.

I've got a pretty good idea why you chose to respond to the joke at the end rather than the actual argument.