Universal's Gogulski Questioning Quintana's Basque Country Performance

[Angliru]

I was surprised and actually quite disappointed that immediately after Quintana's strong performance in the final hilly tt stage of the Basque Country tour (a performance that in addition to his strong climbing, won him the overall classification), began to question the validity of his victory.

Firstly, it was a hilly tt and this being Quintana's second year in Europe, is to unreasonable to believe that he could have improved his ability versus the clock?

Secondly, in all the time that I've watched Gogulski, I've considered him a knowledgable and respectful commentator but I simply found it rather odd that he would take his commentary in that direction and that his companion behind the mike would play along. I can't recall him doing the same to any other riders in recent memory, especially not any of the riders that have shown remarkable improvements in their performances over the past couple of years.

I was pretty shocking to me but then maybe I'm overreacting and simply haven't watched enough racing and heard all the commentary to form an opinion. Let it be said that I have watched the majority of the events that they have carried on his network plus those on the BEIN (is that correct?) sports network which I think is a European based network that NBC/Universal carries on one of their other sports channels (on DirecTV).

 

[Opalius]

It does sound unfair. He just raced well. Nothing extraterrestrial there.

 

[zigmeister]

Nothing special? What? The guy was off the front every day and at the front riding like a maniac in every stage.

Suspicious? Yeah...

GoGo was a pro rider, he was around before and at the beginning of the EPO doping era. I would give more credit to a former pro who knows what a completely usual situation it is to do what Quintana did day after day after day...

Let's look at his results:
Stage 1: 9th place, same time as winner
Stage 2: Down the pack a ways
Stage 3: 4th place
Stage 4: 1st place
Stage 5: 4th place
Stage 6 TT: 2nd place, :17 behind the World Champion Tony Martin?!?!?!


Richie Porte, as you know, has suspicion cast upon him in the clinic also.

Quintana just rode away from him in several stages.

To cast some doubt, I think is merited.


This article should raise some eyebrows about his performance.

http://translate.google.com/transla.../14/actualidad/1365964292_198447.html&act=url

 

[Angliru]

Nothing special? What? The guy was off the front every day and at the front riding like a maniac in every stage.

Suspicious? Yeah...

GoGo was a pro rider, he was around before and at the beginning of the EPO doping era. I would give more credit to a former pro who knows what a completely usual situation it is to do what Quintana did day after day after day...

Let's look at his results:
Stage 1: 9th place, same time as winner
Stage 2: Down the pack a ways
Stage 3: 4th place
Stage 4: 1st place
Stage 5: 4th place
Stage 6 TT: 2nd place, :17 behind the World Champion Tony Martin?!?!?!


Richie Porte, as you know, has suspicion cast upon him in the clinic also.

Quintana just rode away from him in several stages.

To cast some doubt, I think is merited.


This article should raise some eyebrows about his performance.

http://translate.google.com/transla.../14/actualidad/1365964292_198447.html&act=url

Off the front? He was "off the front" on his stage win only as far as I recall. Other times he was battling with the rest of the gc contenders.

(the bolded part)...but strangely never by Gogulski during this season as far as I know.


I'll check out the article. Thanks!

Edit: That article didn't raise my eyebrows one bit. What exactly did you find enlightening?

 

[noddy69]

Overall I am not particularly concerned by his win. He was the best climber in the field and really should have won. I find it more suspicious that tony martin can beat climbers at their own game. Look at the results and betancur weening henao etc high up.

It stands to reason the best climber should win out. Porte does stand out in the middle and martin at the top but as far as tt goes quintana is 40 seconds away from Henao who is not a good tt runner so I dont think its that bad.

 

[neineinei]

Chris Fontecchio: Universal Sports Announcers Lose Their Minds at Vuelta al Pais Vasco

 

[Angliru]

It's been awhile since I've visited the Cafe. Very insightful discussion and as always quite hilarious. Thanks for the link!

 

[Caruut]

I found the remarks weird, not only for how ill-informed they were, but because the mainstream cycling media rarely calls people out.

Since I'm from the UK, I never watch US coverage of races really - have these two done this kind of thing about other riders before? If so, then I would say Quintana is fair game, even if I think that they don't know what they're talking about. If not then it's a frankly absurd place to start. Of course young riders are going to, at some point in their careers, achieve results better than they ever have before.

 

[The Hitch]

Chris Fontecchio: Universal Sports Announcers Lose Their Minds at Vuelta al Pais Vasco

The writer seems to me to know very little about Quintana himself.

He just plucked out a bunch of mostly meaningless cq results like anyone can with no context. He doesnt even seem to know that the tt in Lavenir was a mountain tt.

The big thing about Quintana was not that he won a few small time races, its how he did it. The Route du Soude actually was not a high quality field. it was a **** field. Dupont was 2nd. The thing about the win was that Quintana won by breaking away for 60km over the Tourmalet (with Dupont) and then dropping Dupont later himself and putting 2 minutes in to Hubert and 4 minutes everyone else.

More importantly there is this

Nairo was one of only 3 (arguably 2 since valverde was constantly paced back up by quintana) riders able to climb with Contador in the business hc climbs of a grand Tour, dropping Froome Gesink Porte Moreno etc etc etc.

Anyone who knew anything about Quintana and got to write an article about how good Quintana is, would probably throw that one in somewhere.

You know, rather than just - apparently he won the tour of murcia and placed 4th in catalunya.

 

[Afrank]

Gogulski with his comments pretty much exposed how completely clueless he is. Sure, there is the possibility that Quintana could be doping, but there wasn't much in his performance at Pais Vasco that is wildly outside his capabilities. Quintana's one of the best climbers in the world and the TT in Pais Vasco was a hilly one (climber frequently do well in the PV TT's, just look at last years for example) so its perfectly reasonable that he would be capable of such a performance.

And it's not like Quintana just emerged out of nowhere like Froome did at the Vuelta. It's been known that he is an incredible climbing talent for a while now. That's the most ridiculous thing in Gogulski's statement, that he says Quintana "came out of nowhere." Is the Tour, and US races the only ones he watches or something?

 

[Caruut]

Yeah, depending on how exactly you analyse the Vuelta you could probably make a good case for him being the 2nd or 3rd best climber. There's no doubt that he was at least top-4 in my mind, and I imagine Ryo came away thinking he was the best. Whatever way you spin it, Quintana's showing at the 2012 Vuelta was a performance of some class. Those climbing performances were more than enough to show that he had the ability to win a WT stage race.

 

[Big Doopie]

Really the only thing u can hold against him is the fact that he is on a team of dopers.

The problem is the one thing the universal commentators are correct in is that every single cyclist has lost the benefit of the doubt. Thank Armstrong, clentadope, valverde, schlecklet and a myriad of others for that...

 

[IndianCyclist]

The result certainly rose my eyebrows as in a TT Martin & Porte should be at the top. But looking closely at the other results, Betancur, Henao are also close who are not known for TT. Since this was a hilly TT, it seems to have favoured the climbers. Martin probably gained enough in the flatter sections to win whereas Quintana gained enough in the Hillier sections to come second. The ability of Quintana in mountains is well known to be of top class since his junior days. One can give some benefit of doubt to Quintana

 

[diorgen]

Of course he is doping, obvious because he is beating dopers.

 

[will10]

Really the only thing u can hold against him is the fact that he is on a team of dopers.

The problem is the one thing the universal commentators are correct in is that every single cyclist has lost the benefit of the doubt. Thank Armstrong, clentadope, valverde, schlecklet and a myriad of others for that...

And yet they question someone who has shown a logical progression with no huge leap in performance, rather than Porte or Froome who have improved beyond belief.

As I posted on the pro section, Quintana is an easy target because he's a non-English speaker and it's more difficult for him to defend himself against accusations in the anglo press. Quintana may or may not be clean. But the hypocrisy of giving Sky a free ride and laying into Quintana for climbing well is bizarre.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Slight irony that they're just voicing the suspicions that are voiced on a daily basis in this forum. May be unbalanced but if you're going to voice suspicions of riders based on performances on a public forum and yet take umbrage at commentators doing the same well, lets just say people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

And to qualify that I don't think Quintana is a doper, I like the rider and was pleased by his win in Pais Vasco.

 

[del1962]

Slight irony that they're just voicing the suspicions that are voiced on a daily basis in this forum. May be unbalanced but if you're going to voice suspicions of riders based on performances on a public forum and yet take umbrage at commentators doing the same well, lets just say people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

And to qualify that I don't think Quintana is a doper, I like the rider and was pleased by his win in Pais Vasco.

We can't really allow paid cycling commentatoors to stoop to the depths of the clinic though Jimmy, I suppose at least they didn't say the know that there was doping/

 

[JimmyFingers]

We can't really allow paid cycling commentatoors to stoop to the depths of the clinic though Jimmy, I suppose at least they didn't say the know that there was doping/

I'm not saying they should be speculating like this, and I'm constantly railing at the 'performance-as-proof' declarations made in here, just pointing out the irony of a thread in the clinic complaining about commentators casting doubts over the validity of a rider's performance.

I imagine this will be defended 'logical progression' of Quintana's palmares, but you can easily counter that by saying 'doping from an early age'. The commentators are accused of bias and even racism for singling out Quintana, which may have validity, but it also highlights the bias of people attacking the commentators for saying this, while saying the same thing about other riders.

Jus sayin'....

 

[zigmeister]

Off the front? He was "off the front" on his stage win only as far as I recall. Other times he was battling with the rest of the gc contenders.

(the bolded part)...but strangely never by Gogulski during this season as far as I know.


I'll check out the article. Thanks!

Edit: That article didn't raise my eyebrows one bit. What exactly did you find enlightening?

Quintana is claiming a 7 watt per kg output and 90 (can you say Indurain) vo2. Rofl...

 

[zigmeister]

We can't really allow paid cycling commentatoors to stoop to the depths of the clinic though Jimmy, I suppose at least they didn't say the know that there was doping/

Phil, is that you? Haha

 

[zigmeister]

Overall I am not particularly concerned by his win. He was the best climber in the field and really should have won. I find it more suspicious that tony martin can beat climbers at their own game. Look at the results and betancur weening henao etc high up.

It stands to reason the best climber should win out. Porte does stand out in the middle and martin at the top but as far as tt goes quintana is 40 seconds away from Henao who is not a good tt runner so I dont think its that bad.

Tony Martin doesnt get much credit for being a pretty good climber. Only the steepest sustained climbs does he falter. Mid climbs, he is usually right there. Same as Gilbert etc, very similar strengths and weaknesses. The list is long og good climbers, but not great. Martin falls into that.

 

[Benotti69]

We can't really allow paid cycling commentatoors to stoop to the depths of the clinic though Jimmy, I suppose at least they didn't say the know that there was doping/

Why not? The sport has only itself to blame and if does not want to hear this type of comment aired more often it better clean itself up quickly.

The more commentators that take this approach the better till the teams decide enough is enough.

No one has answered the question, 'What exactly has changed in the sport?', that we are being told it has changed since 2006. I see all the same people involved with a few exceptions.

 

[JimmyFingers]

The one thing you can expect from Bennotti is an even hand, no exceptions

 

[Afrank]

Why not? The sport has only itself to blame and if does not want to hear this type of comment aired more often it better clean itself up quickly.

The more commentators that take this approach the better till the teams decide enough is enough.

No one has answered the question, 'What exactly has changed in the sport?', that we are being told it has changed since 2006. I see all the same people involved with a few exceptions.

In that case, he should have been questioning Sky before Quintana. The performance of Porte this season for one, has been a lot more suspicious than Quintana's. If a journalist (if he can be called that) is going to question anyone, then it should be justifiable and within reason. And I don't see that there was much in Quintana's performance that hints at doping.

 

[Escarabajo]

Nothing special? What? The guy was off the front every day and at the front riding like a maniac in every stage.

Suspicious? Yeah...

GoGo was a pro rider, he was around before and at the beginning of the EPO doping era. I would give more credit to a former pro who knows what a completely usual situation it is to do what Quintana did day after day after day...

Let's look at his results:
Stage 1: 9th place, same time as winner
Stage 2: Down the pack a ways
Stage 3: 4th place
Stage 4: 1st place
Stage 5: 4th place
Stage 6 TT: 2nd place, :17 behind the World Champion Tony Martin?!?!?!


Richie Porte, as you know, has suspicion cast upon him in the clinic also.

Quintana just rode away from him in several stages.

To cast some doubt, I think is merited.


This article should raise some eyebrows about his performance.

http://translate.google.com/transla.../14/actualidad/1365964292_198447.html&act=url

With a VO2max of around 90 ml/kg/min I don't see anything wrong with Pais Vasco performance.

This guy has performed well since day one at any time of the year anywhere on the planet earth on any team at any moment. I would be more concerned about Porte than him.