Urine Trouble

[flicker]

Well said.

On a tangent...

I am generalizing. but I honestly think that there is a contrast between US and European mentalities here.

From experience, a great many European cyclists, including myself, doubted Armstrong from the moment he won the 1999 TDF prologue. It was really a case of "if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, it probably is a duck"

Rightly or wrongly Europeans, in particulat Brits, have a built in cynicism that doesn't naturally exist in a lot of Americans.
Whereas Armstrong disappointed and embarressed a huge amount of Americans, lots of Europeans were simply not surprised when the s**t started hitting the fan. Hence a lower level of feeling on the subject.

So when someone states that they really don't care one way or the other about Armstrong, It's possible that they just don't care any more than any other rider. The arguments in his defence are to readdress the balance, more than anything else.

For what it's worth, I think the salute the flag, peppy attitude I see in my American work colleagues is a breath of fresh air after dealing with cynical brits, but it doesn't always pay dividends in the real world, particularly when that positivity is misplaced.

Lance has never disappointed me as an athlete. Last year was tough, our goal of standing proud in the tour was shattered by unfortunate incidences.

Dating one of the Olsen twins, yeah that was disappointing. Also his divorce from Kristian was a disappointment. It isn't for us to judge the dynamics of their relationship.

As far as his urine samples go, in looking at the chart of Lances' 99 tour samples , (The Micheal Ashden interview on Velocity) did anyone notice a missing sample? What message does that give as far as chain of command
in the storage of samples.

I really do not see Armstrong hate here in the US outside from the occasional nit. He really is known here more as a star than a villin.

I would say to Novizky and the samples, "Caeser we salute you, Rome shall never fall."

 

[Semper Fidelis]

No link. Floyd is one the other is Jogi Muller.

Surf that was not a serious post. I just like asking for a link considering all the conFUSEUS that is in this thread. Sorry for the poor attempt.

 

[BotanyBay]

From what we have read about this investigation it is concentrating on the financial and distribution side - the reason the FDA sought the samples is (IMO) to show the end use of the products and as leverage come testimony time - it frustrates the opposing side using the 'there are no positive tests' angle.

Sounds good. As we can see, Armstrong often says things like "How can I possibly test positive if I've never taken anything?". This will crush that kind of defense positioning.

"Why would I traffic or arrange payment for doping products if I don't use these products?"

It would establish MOTIVE.

"Because you DO use these products, and you use them a lot. And so did other members of your team. It was pervasive and systemic. And that, Lance, shows your motive to do this".

OK, I feel better now.

 

[BroDeal]

From experience, a great many European cyclists, including myself, doubted Armstrong from the moment he won the 1999 TDF prologue. It was really a case of "if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, it probably is a duck"

Rightly or wrongly Europeans, in particulat Brits, have a built in cynicism that doesn't naturally exist in a lot of Americans.

Hold it. The Brits are the cynical ones, even more so than the Europeans on the Continent?? LOLZ. They are still gaga over Wigans, not to mention their track team.

 

[BotanyBay]

Hold it. The Brits are the cynical ones, even more so than the Europeans on the Continent?? LOLZ. They are still gaga over Wigans, not to mention their track team.

I particularly enjoy "Doc Martin" on PBS.

 

[pedaling squares]

I'm just prodding the pack to see if they can come up with interesting/plausible theories as to why the feds are asking for these samples. How and why do they intend to use them, and what kind of charge do you think they're angling for?

I doubt anyone outside of the investigative team knows with certainty. Here's one possible angle. This case in many ways depends upon witness testimony instead of concrete evidence. This opens up issues of credibility. As someone once said, "I like our word. We like our credibility." What these samples can (potentially) do is destroy Lance Armstrong's credibility. At the same time, the word of anyone who said that Armstrong took PEDs is seen in a better light due to corroborative evidence. I don't see positive test results from these samples contributing to any drug importation/possession/distribution charges, but I can see them being very useful in combatting any defence tactic that puts Armstrong's credibility against that of his accusers.

EDIT: as well as being useful evidence to support any charge that Armstrong defrauded the US Govt by using its money to fund an illegal operation.

 

[Benotti69]

Hold it. The Brits are the cynical ones, even more so than the Europeans on the Continent?? LOLZ. They are still gaga over Wigans, not to mention their track team.

they're only cynical when they are not winning , which apart from Track cycling is everything.....


ok Cav won a few stages, the cricketer's won the ashes but apart from that.....

 

[andy1234]

Hold it. The Brits are the cynical ones, even more so than the Europeans on the Continent?? LOLZ. They are still gaga over Wigans, not to mention their track team.

Im not sure I get your point?

 

[MacRoadie]

Last year was tough, our goal of standing proud in the tour was shattered by unfortunate incidences.

"Our" goal?

 

[BotanyBay]

"Our" goal?

He probably means that it was unfortunate that a climate existed that prevented HWMNBN from doing his usual doping regimen. Too many new tests and too many prying eyes back home.

 

[Deagol]

Well you are certainly onto something that the Armstrong legal team will consider. Remember the OJ Simpson case - if you can't attack the process (DNA typing/profiling), attack the handling of the exhibit. Hopefully there won't be any loose ends and any possible defence can be thwarted by good science.

Also, there needs to be IQ tests for jurors...
The OJ jury was manipulated by cute, simplified phrases that came across as true just because they rhymed... "if it does not fit, you must aquit".

Sounds like JC got that out of a Dr. Suess book or something. Unfortunatley they ate it up.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

The OJ jury was manipulated by cute, simplified phrases that came across as true just because they rhymed... "if it does not fit, you must aquit".

Sounds like JC got that out of a Dr. Suess book or something. Unfortunatley they ate it up.

This is America, man. People here would vote for Sarah Palin, and you're amazed they bought the whole OJ garbage?

Almost half the voters voted for McCain/Palin. Doesn't exactly reflect highly on the national acumen.

 

[pedaling squares]

Also, there needs to be IQ tests for jurors...
The OJ jury was manipulated by cute, simplified phrases that came across as true just because they rhymed... "if it does not fit, you must aquit".

Sounds like JC got that out of a Dr. Suess book or something. Unfortunatley they ate it up.

Oh yeah, you're right about that. The rest of the case was a total farce and they let a guilty man walk, no doubt. But it was somewhat of a landmark case for DNA evidence. IIRC the defence team did not attack the science, but used it to their advantage and attacked the handling of exhibits. That's probably a very oversimplified version of what went on but it is relevant to BB's comments about the Armstrong samples.

 

[Deagol]

This is America, man. People here would vote for Sarah Palin, and you're amazed they bought the whole OJ garbage?

Almost half the voters voted for McCain/Palin. Doesn't exactly reflect highly on the national acumen.

I don't think I said "amazed" but I get what you are saying...
Dissapointed, of course - amazed, not so much.

Palin and the Tea party... another joke that has gone on too long.
There is a bumber sticker RE the Tea Party & Palin ala Alice in Wonderland:
"Tea Parties are for little girls with imaginary freinds"


But back on topic....

 

[BotanyBay]

Not to go too far off-topic, but even though I believe the man was guilty, had I been on that jury, I'd have voted not-guilty too.

Why? The cops hopped his fence and then invented a reason for "probable cause", meaning that the glove was fruit of a poison tree. No glove? No case. Cops continually violate the rules, and they need to stop doing that.

And it was that simple. The police tried to say that his vehicle was parked askew, and that he might have needed medical attention (had he also been a victim). And everyone knows that this was BS.

And yes, OJ did it. But that jury was correct in acquittal.

 

[BotanyBay]

I don't think I said "amazed" but I get what you are saying...
Dissapointed, of course - amazed, not so much.

Palin and the Tea party... another joke that has gone on too long.
There is a bumber stiocker RE the Tea Part & Palin:
"Tea Parties are for little girls with imaginary freinds"


But back on topic....

And OMG, with what's going on in Wisconsin and AZ this week. I'm just disgusted at how polarized politics has become. And that applies to this topic. We can argue both sides of a topic folks. We don't need to be so defensive of our POV. Myself, I know Armstrong is guilty, but I can discuss where I think his team will score victories (and I hope not to be harshly criticized for sometimes doing so). I'm still on our team (yay team).

 

[Semper Fidelis]

This is America, man. People here would vote for Sarah Palin, and you're amazed they bought the whole OJ garbage?

Almost half the voters voted for McCain/Palin. Doesn't exactly reflect highly on the national acumen.

Wow this is a wonderful way to discuss the Urine. What does that have to do with Urine Trouble?

 

[Semper Fidelis]

I don't think I said "amazed" but I get what you are saying...
Dissapointed, of course - amazed, not so much.

Palin and the Tea party... another joke that has gone on too long.
There is a bumber sticker RE the Tea Party & Palin ala Alice in Wonderland:
"Tea Parties are for little girls with imaginary freinds"


But back on topic....

Another Wow....great on topic debate this has become. Nice to see POOlitics beeing discussed.

 

[krebs303]

Anyone I see starting a discussion about OJ or Palin in a Armstrong thread that does not pertain them and does not have a darn good explanation will be reported

 

[Deagol]

Like I said, back on topic ....

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Anyone I see starting a discussion about OJ or Palin in a Armstrong thread that does not pertain them and does not have a darn good explanation will be reported

Nice work Krebs!

 

[pedaling squares]

Anyone I see starting a discussion about OJ or Palin in a Armstrong thread that does not pertain them and does not have a darn good explanation will be reported

Oops, I brought that up. But I claim immunity for tying the topic to the urine samples in post 386. That was brilliant work and I'm giving myself a hogslap on the back.

 

[Anonymous]

BACK FROM MY BAN!!!!

Armstrong is an a**hole!

 

[Deagol]

Not to go too far off-topic, but even though I believe the man was guilty, had I been on that jury, I'd have voted not-guilty too.

........
And yes, OJ did it. But that jury was correct in acquittal.

I think the basic comparision of the OJ case to this is not "off-topic" because we are talking about the US justice system here. Some posters have raised the question of jurors reacting to perceived problems with chain-of-custody, etc. This can be compared to "doubts" that were created by OJ defense in the minds of the jurors. A similar thing could, I suppose, happen if this LA case went to trail, right?

But, as far as diverging to opinions on what should have happened with the OJ case, I think that maybe would stray too far into off-topic areas. Suffice it to say that the OJ case evokes strong emotions in the American public, wherever they stand on what was decided.
The potential LA case (if there will be one), if it was to become a public circus ala OJ, would probably do the same thing. I hope this doesn't happen.

I think that it has been established that if you are a celebrity in America, you get an easier ride through the "justice" system than if you are a "no body" (OJ, Paris Hilton, Lindsey Lohan, and Lance?)
I believe justice should prevail, no matter what. Two wrongs do not make a right.

 

[Race Radio]

The complete Le Monde interview of AFLD head Bruno Genevois by Stéphane Mandar http://tinyurl.com/4uozdhq

Mostly talks about budget, Politics, working with the UCI. Nothing new on other riders or years samples being requested