Urine Trouble

[BroDeal]

Oh, man, I cannot wait for perp walk. I hope they nab him when he is all decked out in Livestrong gear.

 

[Dallas_]

Oh, man, I cannot wait for perp walk. I hope they nab him when he is all decked out in Livestrong gear.

Hell. That's below the belt!

Lots of cheers

 

[Berzin]

Once the samples are re-tested there will be no more "credibility" issues for black sheep Landis.

And the repercussions are going to be minimal for those who gave or will give testimony against Armstrong.

He has to make a choice now-keep fighting a lost battle or face the wrath of the Feds.

I think he'll wait until the last possible moment but he may eventually come clean. Once he sees that the people who were bullied or starstruck into defending him no longer are in his corner he may decide to cop a plea.

There are people who made a career making incredibly bombastic and physiologically impossible claims about his talents who will no longer have any credibility in cycling circles, people who still want to make a living in the sport.

It will be interesting to hear their comments after all is said and done.

 

[Anonymous]

They have developed a test for Chimay?

My career is over

Just catching up....

This is just too good.

 

[BroDeal]

Once the samples are re-tested there will be no more "credibility" issues for black sheep Landis.

And the repercussions are going to be minimal for those who gave or will give testimony against Armstrong.

He has to make a choice now-keep fighting a lost battle or face the wrath of the Feds.

I think he'll wait until the last possible moment but he may efventually come clean. Once he sees that the people who were bullied or starstruck into defending him, people who were making incredibly bombastic and physiologically impossible

One big question is whether he will try to minimize his own culpability by throwing others under the bus and spreading the blame. A bribe paid to the UCI could easily be spun as an extortion payment. Blaming the entire corrupt sport may not help him in a criminal case, but it could be used in a public relations campaign.

 

[Merckx index]

btw, there is a classic rock climb in boulder, co with this name

Of Coors there is

The 99 samples were already judged not to have been kept in accounted for conditions and will not be admissable in court - no scientist will come to any firm conclusions on them.

Aside from the fact that two of the most reputable anti-doping scientists in the world have come to fairly firm conclusions on them--Ashenden and Catlin--you seem to ignore the fact that evidence in a court does not have to be black-and-white. There can be various degrees of incrimination. One can take into account that the samples may not have a fully transparent chain of custody and still regard their tests as significant.

You are certainly right that, if these samples are actually tested and the results introduced into court, LA's team will bring in some very high-powered scientists to dismiss their significance. It could get very interesting (here's a provocative scenario: following his remarks that he finds the evidence for EPO in the 99 samples convincing, Catlin is called to testify against the guy who originally wanted him to run his doping program). But if matters get that far (and not at all sure they will in what is supposed to be a fraud case), just having the samples debated will seriously damage LA's reputation. Assuming there are more positives like the '99 samples, the scientists will have to explain how long-term storage turned so many negative samples into positive ones. It's one thing to debate values that are of borderline significance. It's another to try to dismiss clear-cut positives on the grounds that they somehow changed over time.

And the platizicer test is still very new and uncertain. It could just as easily be effected by the plastic water bottles or even plastic bags they hold the blood samples within.

DEHP is used to make plastics flexible (such as PVC), and I am pretty sure is not present in the hard containers used to store small blood and urine samples. These containers do have other substances that can leach into the sample, but DEHP was chosen specifically as a component of most transfusion containers.

I will defer to someone who knows more about the actual anti-doping lab procedures (Python, probably), but I believe the minimum urine sample is supposed to be 90 ml., so 45 ml for an A or B. This amount is routinely used to carry out multiple tests, for EPO, synthetic testosterone, and other steroids. DEHP and HemAssist are possibilities. Testing for a protease would be difficult, as you would have to identify a specific amino acid sequence, and in long-term samples the protease might well be degraded to the point where even small sequences could not be reliably identified.

Frozen blood samples cannot be used to test for homologous blood doping (that’s how Tyler got off at the Olympics), but could be used to test for any chemical substance to corroborate urine tests.

I think the most fruitful lines of inquiry would be DEHP, EPO (including newer forms like CERA) and synthetic T--the last because it is apparently often used in programs involving EPO or blood transfusion. There is a lot of evidence (Tyler's doping schedules; Floyd's case) that it is often a marker for some other, more performance-enhancing substance or program. Note that since this is a court case, and the evidence does not have to black-and-white, this could be an important trial case for DEHP as a marker of blood transfusions. Just because it's not an officially validated test for doping does not mean that the science of its quantitation is not very well-established. Tests for it are used in the food industry.

 

[D-Queued]

Counter-point PR strategy?

Why did AFLD announce in the first place?

Is Novitzky starting to play cat-and-mouse with Lance?

Ok, Lance, you want to run a bogus AP article up the flagpole suggesting the case is cold?

We can play that game too...

Let us know how much you like hardball.

Dave.

 

[BroDeal]

So is this the real reason that Armstrong suddenly retired? He knows his head is on the chopping block and the blade could fall at any moment. His PR team will have a hard time dealing with a leak about test results.

 

[Wheels Go Round and Round]

Agreed. But many posters have in the past stated vehemently that wouldn't happen. I'd love to hear from all the Lancelovers who said the EPO laced 1999 samples will NEVER be tested. Yet here we are!

Funny how a little momentum can carry a long, long way from a long, long time ago. Sleep tight Lance

NW

didn't we have the clowns on the other side saying Lance would be in jail about 3 months ago?????????????

roflmao........

 

[Anonymous]

didn't we have the clowns on the other side saying Lance would be in jail about 3 months ago?????????????

roflmao........

roflmao indeed.

 

[Race Radio]

So is this the real reason that Armstrong suddenly retired? He knows his head is on the chopping block and the blade could fall at any moment. His PR team will have a hard time dealing with a leak about test results.

Bingo. There is a reason Wonderboy stopped so suddenly. He needs to distance himself as it all comes down

It is a game to keep RadioShack paying to sponsor the team. Contract gives them an out if an active rider gets a case against them. Now that Wonderboy is no longer active they can play word games to negotiate a settlement.....Who does he think he is Bob Stapleton?

Wonder if they forgot about Fuyu?

 

[Ferminal]

Wonder if they forgot about Fuyu?

RFEC has possibly solved that.

 

[Polish]

Why did AFLD announce in the first place?

Is Novitzky starting to play cat-and-mouse with Lance?

Ok, Lance, you want to run a bogus AP article up the flagpole suggesting the case is cold?

We can play that game too...

Let us know how much you like hardball.

Dave.

Sure, the US Feds / Novitzky are largely responsible for recent drug busts in Germany, France, Belgium, Italy and other Euro countries - but here in the USA the strategy seems to teeter on the edge of ridiculousness...

We will see how John and Jane Q Public will react to the Fed Cases...

C'mon, a formal extradition of Lance pee from France?

C'mon, Barry Bond's "shriveled testicles" as evidence?
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=li-bondsevidence021809

Mr Manrod on the stand?

Perfect Storm

 

[sartain]

Once the samples are re-tested there will be no more "credibility" issues for black sheep Landis.

And the repercussions are going to be minimal for those who gave or will give testimony against Armstrong.

He has to make a choice now-keep fighting a lost battle or face the wrath of the Feds.

I think he'll wait until the last possible moment but he may eventually come clean. Once he sees that the people who were bullied or starstruck into defending him no longer are in his corner he may decide to cop a plea.

There are people who made a career making incredibly bombastic and physiologically impossible claims about his talents who will no longer have any credibility in cycling circles, people who still want to make a living in the sport.

It will be interesting to hear their comments after all is said and done.

I wonder what the gang over at CSE and PS are doing right about now? Meanwhile, back at the ranch, SirLance-a-Lot continues to post meaningless drivel on his T account.

I wonder what Pierre Bordry is thinking right about know . . . I bet the word
'au revoir' just rolls off of his tongue.

Nothing like the arrogance of middle aged hubris.

 

[Wheels Go Round and Round]

roflmao indeed.

that's probably the most important thing Floyd has ever done........

sad but true

 

[Race Radio]

didn't we have the clowns on the other side saying Lance would be in jail about 3 months ago?????????????

roflmao........

No, do you have a link?

I remember poster after poster saying that this process was going to take a long time

 

[Colm.Murphy]

Sure, the US Feds / Novitzky are largely responsible for recent drug busts in Germany, France, Belgium, Italy and other Euro countries - but here in the USA the strategy seems to teeter on the edge of ridiculousness...

We will see how John and Jane Q Public will react to the Fed Cases...

C'mon, a formal extradition of Lance pee from France?

C'mon, Barry Bond's "shriveled testicles" as evidence?
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=li-bondsevidence021809

Mr Manrod on the stand?

Perfect Storm

All those words to say nothing at all.

The crimes that were allegedly committed will be investigated and prosecuted. Seems plain to me. Dress it how you like, sarcasm, cynicism, a-moral outrage, passive aggressiveness, though the outcome will still be the same.

 

[DirtyWorks]

If Only....

Oh, man, I cannot wait for perp walk. I hope they nab him when he is all decked out in Livestrong gear.

That guy has hired the Fabricator Fabiani to grease the skids in Congress. Congress is the body that funds the investigation. The same one that hasn't walked a single perp in the widespread mortgage fraud? Team Armstrong's money is just as good as the bank's money.

I want to see every principal in Tailwind perp walked. I do. The Pharmstrong defense would only need to create doubt about any samples brought into court to eliminate them as a threat. I'm sure they can find a doctor (the doctor from 30 Rock works for me) to make something up.

It's early days yet. I think the perp walk is at one extreme end of possible results. The other end of the spectrum is nothing happens to the Team Pharmstrong.

 

[pedaling squares]

Le Mensonge Armstrong

I thought all that pee talk from a few years back was part of an attempt by a shoddy French tabloid to prop up a corrupt lab, take down an international hero, and weaken this sport.

You may have heard of David Walsh and Pierre Ballester , co-authors of the 2004 book, "L.A. Confidentiel: Les secrets de Lance Armstrong". Forget about them. As Armstrong foes, they are cub scouts compared to the man who for years, behind the scenes, rather quietly imagined going after Armstrong and then did just that in 2005. The name of that man may not mean anything to you. It might not mean anything to Armstrong himself. And yet that man, the boss of French sports daily L'Equipe's doping reporter Damien Ressiot is Armstrong's biggest-ever foe, behind no doubt one of the largest propaganda campaigns in the history of sports journalism. In a stunning twist to the story of L'Equipe's pursuit of Armstrong, this mystery man wrote about targeting cycling's biggest star over three years ago with the goal of bringing the sport to its knees.

 

[la.margna]

why only 99 and not all samples????!

 

[usedtobefast]

12 years on. hard to prosecute,eh?

 

[joe_papp]

...But if matters get that far (and not at all sure they will in what is supposed to be a fraud case), just having the samples debated will seriously damage LA's reputation.

Damage his reputation w/ which demographic/target-group/audience? Hardly making any pronouncement on LA's legal/criminal liability here, but it bears mentioning that not all of the public thinks like The Clinic and there will certainly be not insignificant segments of the population that really don't care about whatever cheating they may be compelled to realize Lance engaged in, if such an allegation were to be proven in US court. This is America, man, where Michael Vick - who served 21 months in federal prison + 2 months home confinement - is now QB for the Philadelphia Eagles. That's a pretty exalted position position for a sportsman, as there are...what, 30 teams in the NFL?

The people who already think LA are guilty are still going to think he's guilty. The question is whether or not they're going to care enough to treat Armstrong differently than they would a post-prison Michael Vick.

The Clinic is not representative of the way in which John Q. Public thinks about someone in Lance Armstrong's position. Call it unfortunate or not, but it's reality.

Cycling is such a small sport relative to the NFL (even smaller on the national level) and yet Armstrong is bigger than someone like Vick (w/ respect to current and future notoriety amongst the American public) - I just don't see there being a worse public reaction to him for having committed fraud or tax evasion or whatever (should any of that be proven) than the reaction to Vick for having led a dog-fighting ring.

[note: in comparing Armstrong to Vick, I fully realize that there is no empirical methodology used here to rate them. I just cited Vick as a somewhat similar case, to some degree.]

End of the day, even if proven in US court to have committed a crime, I don't see Armstrong suffering any worse than Vick (and he's certainly in a better position financially, and w/ respect to interconnected web of vested interests backing him who aren't prepared to abandon him wholesale and will maintain at least a qualified support). Time will tell.

 

[Je ne sais quoi]

Damn. Lance studied all night for that urine test.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

why only 99 and not all samples????!

Anything to do with previous litigation or contracts? USPS contracts? RR, any info?

 

[python]

it’s very sweat indeed to wake up to a bloody great news like this !!

but ppl should scale back their wildest projections about testing everything they could dream of.

i believe i once tried to address many of the questions popping here in an old post to benotti.

bottom line, it’s not too difficult to estimate how many samples armstrong gave in france (dozens). the problem is that very few if any (with few exceptions) are likely left. the issue is strict rules imposed on confidentiality and the required disposal of negative samples unless slated for research (usually within 3 months). otherwise, it would look like afld was conspiring to target store texas piss and mess with it. a big no-no !

that said, pierre bordry publicly stated in 2009 (when he invited the texas fraud to chose a lab for his 99 samples) there was enough 99 urine left to test for dna and epo. google meisters can easily find it. this means about 30-40 ml of some b samples. but i know this gets easily forgotten b/c ppl are not interested in boring technicalities and details but rather sexy dreams and speculation.

hopefully some samples may have been slated for research. i pray they have.

the fed should now goto lausanne lab