US cycling scene in the 70s and 80s

[Zypherov]

Re:

I'd prefer to remain somewhat anonymous, as there are too many guys I was friends with that are still in the sport. I respect them, end of story.

One of the things you guys need to realize is, anytime you are dealing with personal recollections from an era just remember that they are personal. In other words I went through that I went through, others went through very different circumstances. So it's tough for me to answer questions, like "wasn't it possible to ride as a pro clean?" I was a good amateur for a few years there, racing for a French team in all the big international stage races in France, Belgium and Italy, against the Russians and Poles. I didn't win a lot of races, was mostly a climber and very good at stage races. I had a ton of top 10 placings as a gc rider. I was given a chance to stay and ride as a pro. But from my perspective with my talent level, it meant a few years as a domestique, for very little money and doing a ton of drugs. I was given stuff to take by the soigneurs and the docs on teams I raced for. They would give me what I found out later were fairly mild stimulants and things like cortisone at races. They and the ex pros I trained with always told me I needed to take steroids early in the season to help buildup to allow oneself to make it through the season. The ex pros used to tell me to take amphetamines for training and how much it would help me develop as a rider. As I mentioned earlier, I just didn't have the balls to take the strong stuff. But those were my surroundings, could it have been different? For sure, but as a kid over there trying to learn the ropes, you are at the mercy of those around you. I wasn't super talented like LeMond, where you could just tell them off and do what you wanted. I had no other support group that had been through it and could tell me it could be done clean. There is no doubt that all of that makes a huge difference, the mind is a very powerful thing. My peers over there wrestled with the same ****, we all reacted to it differently. Some of them dove right in, actually became frighteningly into it all. I just opted out, it wasn't worth it to me. It's an addicting sport, so it's not like that was an easy decision for me.

I had a blast doing it though and don't regret it. Besides I have a ton of funny stories, maybe someday I'll tell you guys how my pee ended up getting a pro contract for a good buddy of mine! And no, I'm not gonna name him.

Was it possible to race clean in the professional peloton and beat all the doped guys during this era ?

 

[Irondan]

Re: Re:

I'd prefer to remain somewhat anonymous, as there are too many guys I was friends with that are still in the sport. I respect them, end of story.

One of the things you guys need to realize is, anytime you are dealing with personal recollections from an era just remember that they are personal. In other words I went through that I went through, others went through very different circumstances. So it's tough for me to answer questions, like "wasn't it possible to ride as a pro clean?" I was a good amateur for a few years there, racing for a French team in all the big international stage races in France, Belgium and Italy, against the Russians and Poles. I didn't win a lot of races, was mostly a climber and very good at stage races. I had a ton of top 10 placings as a gc rider. I was given a chance to stay and ride as a pro. But from my perspective with my talent level, it meant a few years as a domestique, for very little money and doing a ton of drugs. I was given stuff to take by the soigneurs and the docs on teams I raced for. They would give me what I found out later were fairly mild stimulants and things like cortisone at races. They and the ex pros I trained with always told me I needed to take steroids early in the season to help buildup to allow oneself to make it through the season. The ex pros used to tell me to take amphetamines for training and how much it would help me develop as a rider. As I mentioned earlier, I just didn't have the balls to take the strong stuff. But those were my surroundings, could it have been different? For sure, but as a kid over there trying to learn the ropes, you are at the mercy of those around you. I wasn't super talented like LeMond, where you could just tell them off and do what you wanted. I had no other support group that had been through it and could tell me it could be done clean. There is no doubt that all of that makes a huge difference, the mind is a very powerful thing. My peers over there wrestled with the same ****, we all reacted to it differently. Some of them dove right in, actually became frighteningly into it all. I just opted out, it wasn't worth it to me. It's an addicting sport, so it's not like that was an easy decision for me.

I had a blast doing it though and don't regret it. Besides I have a ton of funny stories, maybe someday I'll tell you guys how my pee ended up getting a pro contract for a good buddy of mine! And no, I'm not gonna name him.

Was it possible to race clean and beat all the doped guys during this era ?

This question was already raised by pmcg76 and answered in the post above.

 

[Zypherov]

Re: Re:

I'd prefer to remain somewhat anonymous, as there are too many guys I was friends with that are still in the sport. I respect them, end of story.

One of the things you guys need to realize is, anytime you are dealing with personal recollections from an era just remember that they are personal. In other words I went through that I went through, others went through very different circumstances. So it's tough for me to answer questions, like "wasn't it possible to ride as a pro clean?" I was a good amateur for a few years there, racing for a French team in all the big international stage races in France, Belgium and Italy, against the Russians and Poles. I didn't win a lot of races, was mostly a climber and very good at stage races. I had a ton of top 10 placings as a gc rider. I was given a chance to stay and ride as a pro. But from my perspective with my talent level, it meant a few years as a domestique, for very little money and doing a ton of drugs. I was given stuff to take by the soigneurs and the docs on teams I raced for. They would give me what I found out later were fairly mild stimulants and things like cortisone at races. They and the ex pros I trained with always told me I needed to take steroids early in the season to help buildup to allow oneself to make it through the season. The ex pros used to tell me to take amphetamines for training and how much it would help me develop as a rider. As I mentioned earlier, I just didn't have the balls to take the strong stuff. But those were my surroundings, could it have been different? For sure, but as a kid over there trying to learn the ropes, you are at the mercy of those around you. I wasn't super talented like LeMond, where you could just tell them off and do what you wanted. I had no other support group that had been through it and could tell me it could be done clean. There is no doubt that all of that makes a huge difference, the mind is a very powerful thing. My peers over there wrestled with the same ****, we all reacted to it differently. Some of them dove right in, actually became frighteningly into it all. I just opted out, it wasn't worth it to me. It's an addicting sport, so it's not like that was an easy decision for me.

I had a blast doing it though and don't regret it. Besides I have a ton of funny stories, maybe someday I'll tell you guys how my pee ended up getting a pro contract for a good buddy of mine! And no, I'm not gonna name him.

Was it possible to race clean and beat all the doped guys during this era ?

This question was already raised by pmcg76 and answered in the post above.

The question I meant to ask was, was it possible for Greg lemond specifically to race clean and win races like the Tour de France against doped up opponents ?

 

[Pontiac]

You guys can beat yourselves to death trying to answer questions like that. As I mentioned earlier, all I can do is supply my perspective based on what I went through and the answer is no. Do I have any factual basis in that answer? None, nothing but intuition from my experiences and rumors from those I raced with.

Believe me it's not worth spending time trying to dissect the answer, the pro side is a great show. Leave it at that. I mean even though we all know how LA won his 7 tours now, you can't deny it was exciting stuff to watch at the time.

 

[Starstruck]

It's a culture you have to experience to understand. Clearly Pontiac went further into it than I did. I would never have been a GC rider. I could make it over some climbs and had a bit of a sprint but I lacked the recovery for stage races. Besides I had physical issues that were becoming too problematic (that damn psoas muscle). I nearly met my end in a race in Belgium too so that was something to think about.

In any case there was, and probably still is, a major cultural shift from N.A. to Europe. I went over there to answer the question as to whether I could "make it" and the answer wasn't long in coming for me (and others I knew). It was an experience, and a pretty fun one too.

 

[Starstruck]

You guys can beat yourselves to death trying to answer questions like that. As I mentioned earlier, all I can do is supply my perspective based on what I went through and the answer is no. Do I have any factual basis in that answer? None, nothing but intuition from my experiences and rumors from those I raced with.

Believe me it's not worth spending time trying to dissect the answer, the pro side is a great show. Leave it at that. I mean even though we all know how LA won his 7 tours now, you can't deny it was exciting stuff to watch at the time.

What was the longest stage race you ever did and how much weight did you lose? I know the longest stage race I ever did was 7 days (as a junior) and I lost 10 lbs. while eating everything in sight. I went from 145 (around my normal race weight) to 135 and I'm nearly 5'11".

I can't imagine a three week tour no matter how physically developed one is on bread and water. Neither could the Euros., the doctors honestly believe they're helping (and they are).

 

[ScienceIsCool]

That reminds me of the anecdotes from that time - to survive a GT riders would start with an extra 5-10 pounds and slightly under-conditioned so that they weren't reduced to limping skeletons in the third week.

John Swanson

 

[Zypherov]

I recall reading a passage from Paul Kimmage's book Rough Ride where he states that he was the best placed rider on his team at his first Tour in 1986. Then after about ten or so days his batterys went flat. In other words he was mentally and physically exhausted to such an extent that he needed something illegal to recharge his batteries. He eventually finished 131st overall, clean, his only finish in three Tour starts. When he wrote his book he was written of as a sore loser and had no talent or could not cut it. Here is a guy who finished sixth at the world amatuer championships. To say that he had no talent is wrong. It's the day after day grind of long stages and fast average speeds that put him to the sword. So what percentage of riders in a grand tour meet the same predicament. I would say its quite high. The average speeds have not tumbled.

 

[Starstruck]

Circuit races in Europe are one thing, after the first lap you basically know what's up. Point to point races are something else. Serious mental strain.

Point to point races in N.A. are far less stressful as there's generally far less *clutter*.

 

[Dr.Guess]

This is fantastic reading guys. (starstruck and pontiac and of course sniper for the well put questions to his information.)

 

[Starstruck]

Re: Re:

@ sniper
When I was 18 I went to race in Belgium, this was 1990. I lived in the same town as Steve Bauer. It took me about two months to realise that it was going to literally be impossible to "make it" without doping. I sat in Steve's living room and asked him point blank if it was possible, and talked about the amateurs dropping dead in their sleep. He told me that he just did ozone therapy. Sure, until it mattered.

I saw the finish of the 1990 Paris Roubaix in the velodrome. The really hilarious part was that Planckaert was selling a story about a Swiss clinic and some sort of fetal tissue (sheep or something) injections to the press after his win. Meanwhile, as a junior about to become senior I held the testosterone vial in my hands, I was offered the amphetamines, I knew people that died. I declined and quit entirely in '91. After that I was out of the loop.

Obvious is obvious. I knew multiple people from home that were racing in Italy, France and Belgium , all reports were the same; dope or forget it. It's not like we were completely naïve but they don't (didn't) even pretend in Europe. This is the deal...

No one should (will) believe me though so believe what you want. Three week grand tours on bread and water...c'mon, let's be reasonable.

p.s. that was a great post Pontiac.

Very interesting, thanks, and very plausible.

I remember reading similar accounts about Belgium being the place were you are really 'tested', thrown into the deep, wrt doping that is. (Don't remember exactly where I read it, will look)

btw, Planckaert's story sounds alot like Esafosfina's story about ADR a-class riders in 1989 visiting a Swiss or Austrian clinic for treatment with calf's blood extract. Esafosfina rode for ADR in that year, though he was not part of the inner circle / a-class. (you find esafosfina's account here: http://velorooms.com/index.php?topic=1904.0)

If I may ask, did you ever hear anything about EPO (or hormone therapy) in 89/90/91?
There were plenty of stories about EPO already doing the rounds in those years, see e.g. here:
http://postimg.org/image/vgxgqxt7f/
and here: viewtopic.php?p=1909046#p1909046

As I said, amateurs were dropping dead in their sleep. I was aware of *something* in the spring of 1990, it was clear something new had hit the streets. I asked Bauer about it but he feigned ignorance (could have been genuine). I can't recall if EPO was something specifically known at the time but it was obvious something was afoot.

ps I knew one guy that dropped from old school doping regardless. He was an ex low level pro. without a contract that was back racing amateur while still dreaming of making it pro. again (there was no shortage of these sorts). He had really puffy cheeks and a serious acne problem (face and torso), he was mid twenties. We were changing in somebodies garage (as is the way in Belgium) before a race and he got up to use the washroom and the needle hit the ground -whoops (probably pot belge). Soon after he was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and shortly thereafter...that was, as they say, the end of that.

 

[Anaconda]

Inga Thompson with some opinions on Eddy B and more:

My impression now is that Eddie B. was the father of the American cycling doping culture. But it wasn’t all about Eddie B.; there were plenty of people already in place that wanted the doping to happen. These people had to go out and find Eddie, and even if it hadn’t been him, it would have been somebody like him. I don’t know if they thought, “This is what it takes to compete against the Europeans,” or if they were trying to take a shortcut to catch up with the Russians before the 1984 Olympics – I can’t say. But I was in the middle of it, and I think I paid for it, too.

To explain that in a little more detail, I found out about the blood-doping plans during the Coors Classic earlier that year. That race was basically our last big tune-up before going to Los Angeles. One of the managers of the Levi’s-Raleigh team, I don’t recall who, told us that the national coaches would be coming around to ask us if we’d be willing to participate in the blood-doping. Well, I said “no.” And I think that because of this – because I refused to submit to their authority on this – Eddie B. basically decided he would do everything he could to get me to quit. Those coaches didn’t want anyone on the team who threatened to think for themselves.

http://www.theouterline.com/perspectives-on-doping-in-pro-cycling-2-inga-thompson-5/

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...
As I said, amateurs were dropping dead in their sleep. I was aware of *something* in the spring of 1990, it was clear something new had hit the streets. I asked Bauer about it but he feigned ignorance (could have been genuine). I can't recall if EPO was something specifically known at the time but it was obvious something was afoot.

ps I knew one guy that dropped from old school doping regardless. He was an ex low level pro. without a contract that was back racing amateur while still dreaming of making it pro. again (there was no shortage of these sorts). He had really puffy cheeks and a serious acne problem (face and torso), he was mid twenties. We were changing in somebodies garage (as is the way in Belgium) before a race and he got up to use the washroom and the needle hit the ground -whoops (probably pot belge). Soon after he was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and shortly thereafter...that was, as they say, the end of that.

crazy.

Here's a post from some years ago, describing a similar state of affairs as you did earlier.
viewtopic.php?p=568748#p568748

Belgium really deserves a separate thread.

 

[sniper]

Inga Thompson with some opinions on Eddy B and more:

The only mystery surrounding Eddie is how people have collectively decided to ignore Lemond's ties to him, as described e.g. in Lemond's Complete Book of Cycling.
Same for Hampsten, passing through the hands of Eddie from 1982-84. That too has been largely ignored so as not to disturb the "clean ammies beating pesky european dopers" narrative.

btw, I'm gonna call BS on the 'official' (wikipedia) account of how Eddie ended up in the States. Allegedly he was just passing through in 1976 and accidentally bumped into Fraysse's cycling store.
Fact is that Eddie coached the Polish national junior cycling team from 71-75. Other fact is the US sent a team to the junior worlds in Poland in 1974. It's where Danny van Haute's father suggests Danny came in contact with blood doping for the first time (viewtopic.php?p=1907797#p1907797).
I'm going to guess Fraysse was there in 1974 and was impressed by Eddie's 'scientific' coaching skills.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...
In 84, little surprisingly, Burke, Fraysse and Eddie were at the heart of the Olympic blood boosting scheme. Burke lied, pretending he'd first heard about blood boosting in a 1983 article from Gledhill. Anybody even remotely involved in the topic of cardiorespiratory conditioning would have been aware of the work on blood boosting by guys like Ekblom in the early 70s. Then there's Danny Van Haute's story. As I argued on the 1st page of this thread, by his father's admission he got in contact with blood doping as early as 1974 during the junior world's in...Poland.

To briefly get back to the bold face:

Burke E R, Ekblom B.
Influence of fluid ingestion and dehydration on precision and endurance in tennis.
Athletic Training 275-277, 1982.

Burke E, Ekblom B.
Influence of fluid hydration on precision and endurance in tennis.
World Congress Sports Medicine, Wien 1982.

http://www.gih.se/PageFiles/294/Bj%C3%B6rn%20Ekblom,%20publikationer.pdf

Recall also that Costill (Burke's mentor) published together with Saltin, who, in turn, was a disciple of Per Olof Astrand.
Astrand and Ekblom, widely considered the flagbearers of Swedish research into blood doping.

 

[Anaconda]

Hmmm trailer looks a tad interesting...

With the 2016 Summer Olympics just four short months away, athletes from around the world are gearing up to live their dreams and go for the gold. But overshadowing the upcoming event is yet another news story of sportsmen seeking an edge through the use of performance enhancing drugs. Sadly, doping in sports is nothing new despite ongoing efforts to stamp out the practice and ensure the games are played “clean.” Journalist and Filmmaker Jill Yesko recalls one such doping scandal and recounts the sordid tale in a new documentary, Tainted Blood: The Untold Story of the 1984 Olympic Blood Doping Scandal. Yesko recently shared the story behind the making of Tainted Blood in an intriguing interview with the Los Angeles Post-Examiner. - See more at: http://lapostexaminer.com/tainted-blood-explores-los-angeles-olympics-doping-scandal/2016/04/04#sthash.2amXDKZd.dpuf

http://lapostexaminer.com/tainted-blood-explores-los-angeles-olympics-doping-scandal/2016/04/04

 

[Tonton]

Zika may become the new Bilharzia then .

 

[Tonton]

A bit more serious, I don't follow too much of the threads here, because I see a lot of "ifs", and not much evidence. I still admire the research and dedication to get to the bottom of the issues. And I'm going to be harsh: Inga settling scores with Longo "coming out of nowhere and beating us", when Longo was already established in '84 when Inga turned pro. I would think that Rebecca Twigg would be her first target. Nope. Feelings get in the way. So does Omerta: "I know things but I won't give names". So folks here keep digging and not get answers. Why doesn't Joe Papp spill the beans? All the beans.

Yet, reading accounts of former riders (Pontiac and Starstruck) was extremely refreshing, and I feel bad for them. Like Icarus, the closer you get to the sun, the more you feel the burn...

I never got close to the sun, probably not good enough to be offered the goodies, but in the mid-80's, looking back with the knowledge that I have now, there was a change from artisanal doping to systemic doping. Former pros were in charge of clubs in Europe. The best riders and probably some whose parents were ruthless/obsessed, doped starting in Juniors. That's when I heard about "amphets" for the first time. Steroids. I went from being the local Zubeldia to not even top tens. And through it all, I thought that it was due to my lack of commitment, I had a girlfriend, maybe didn't train hard enough: maybe! Yes, I heard things. The best guys I knew didn't dope and still did good, not as good, but good. That's OK with me. No sour grapes: I was and am good, but not great. Now I'm a 47 year-old "painter" busting his butt on a home-made bike. And I love it. Love for cycling will never go away.

But, to switch back to the topic, That was the environment that a Pontiac or Starstruck fell into. If you didn't dope, you had to be a phenomenon to "make it". Was it possible? I think so, but I would not bet my last dollar on it. What I lived, what I saw, what I guess, was an arms race gearing up to the '88 Olympics, East vs. West after the boycotts, governments-sponsored "research" on both sides. And EPO. The game changed.

 

[sniper]

good post, tonton.

agreed about Inga, though it's not entirely her fault that whistleblowers get blown away and attacked left right center these days. If I were her, I wouldn't name names either.
That said, I also asked her about Eddie B., abuot whom she did speak in that interview with velonews, but she didn't respond to that either. So I guess she had second thoughts about participating in the Clinic altogether.

...What I lived, what I saw, what I guess, was an arms race gearing up to the '88 Olympics, East vs. West after the boycotts, governments-sponsored "research" on both sides. And EPO. The game changed.

Based on what I've read, I'd argue that the arms race between the USA and the bloc countries started much much earlier, already in the 50s (This is stated by different independent observers). It escalated after the 1968 Mexico City Games, which is when altitude (read: blood doping) became a big issue. The 1976 Montreal Games constitute another milestone: USA loose out to Russia and East Germany in the medal rankings, triggering the creation and implementaton of the US Amateur Sports Act in 1978.
The two boycots in 1980 and 84 were not anticipated, and therefore, I would argue, they had little impact on the ongoing arms race, though if you say it intensified further leading up to Seoul, that's probably accurate.
One (perhaps THE) real big change in the early 80s was that suddenly antidoping tests became more effective, especially steroid testing. This is exemplified at the Pan Am Games 1983 fiasco which I posted about upthread. This was a huge wake up call, especially to USOC. And so subsequently the arms race took on a somewhat different shape. Whereas previously it was a free-for-all dope fest (with the hardest and most extreme dopers winning the most medals), the 88 Seoul/Calgary Games became more of a contest in how to dope effectively whilst flying below the radar.
And yes, that is indeed when EPO comes on the scene to replace blood bags.

 

[sniper]

Re:

Hmmm trailer looks a tad interesting...

With the 2016 Summer Olympics just four short months away, athletes from around the world are gearing up to live their dreams and go for the gold. But overshadowing the upcoming event is yet another news story of sportsmen seeking an edge through the use of performance enhancing drugs. Sadly, doping in sports is nothing new despite ongoing efforts to stamp out the practice and ensure the games are played “clean.” Journalist and Filmmaker Jill Yesko recalls one such doping scandal and recounts the sordid tale in a new documentary, Tainted Blood: The Untold Story of the 1984 Olympic Blood Doping Scandal. Yesko recently shared the story behind the making of Tainted Blood in an intriguing interview with the Los Angeles Post-Examiner. - See more at: http://lapostexaminer.com/tainted-blood-explores-los-angeles-olympics-doping-scandal/2016/04/04#sthash.2amXDKZd.dpuf

http://lapostexaminer.com/tainted-blood-explores-los-angeles-olympics-doping-scandal/2016/04/04

interesting! thanks.

From the link:

They did this, too, at a time when we didn’t know much about HIV/AIDS, so they’re lucky that nobody died or developed AIDS.

Indeed. HIV infection was a serious risk with transfusions (see e.g .Arthur Ashe's case from the early 80s).
Yet here we are:
- 1985: Eddie B. publicly decrying the ban on blood doping
- 2004: Greg Lemond throwing a fundraiser for Eddie B.
- up to present: USA Cycling sporting an Edmund Burke Cycling Fund to promote upcoming cycling talent.


For the record, the rest of that interview with Jill Yesko is rather disappointing. Doesn't sound like this is going to be a very revealing documentary. Apologetic, naive and uninformed.

 

[sniper]

two interesting bits from the interview:

I’ve managed to talk to some of the riders; I’ve talked to the team manager and the team coach; and it just feels like Rashamon to me. Everyone is telling me a different version of what happened. I doubt I’ll ever really get to the truth. At this point, everyone is doing legacy protecting. No one is denying that this happened, but when I ask whose idea it was, everyone points a finger at somebody else

...

I called up Steve Hegg – one of the gold medalists from that team – and he was openly hostile. He even said, “I’ve given thirty years of my life to this sport and gotten nothing. If you want me to be in this film, you’ve got to pay me.” I told him I don’t do that.

The trailer looks interesting enough.
Lol at Betsy in there, bringing up Lance...again!

 

[Tonton]

good post, tonton.

agreed about Inga, though it's not entirely her fault that whistleblowers get blown away and attacked left right center these days. If I were her, I wouldn't name names either.
That said, I also asked her about Eddie B., abuot whom she did speak in that interview with velonews, but she didn't respond to that either. So I guess she had second thoughts about participating in the Clinic altogether.

...What I lived, what I saw, what I guess, was an arms race gearing up to the '88 Olympics, East vs. West after the boycotts, governments-sponsored "research" on both sides. And EPO. The game changed.

Based on what I've read, I'd argue that the arms race between the USA and the bloc countries started much much earlier, already in the 50s (This is stated by different independent observers). It escalated after the 1968 Mexico City Games, which is when altitude (read: blood doping) became a big issue. The 1976 Montreal Games constitute another milestone: USA loose out to Russia and East Germany in the medal rankings, triggering the creation and implementaton of the US Amateur Sports Act in 1978.
The two boycots in 1980 and 84 were not anticipated, and therefore, I would argue, they had little impact on the ongoing arms race, though if you say it intensified further leading up to Seoul, that's probably accurate.
One (perhaps THE) real big change in the early 80s was that suddenly antidoping tests became more effective, especially steroid testing. This is exemplified at the Pan Am Games 1983 fiasco which I posted about upthread. This was a huge wake up call, especially to USOC. And so subsequently the arms race took on a somewhat different shape. Whereas previously it was a free-for-all dope fest (with the hardest and most extreme dopers winning the most medals), the 88 Seoul/Calgary Games became more of a contest in how to dope effectively whilst flying below the radar.
And yes, that is indeed when EPO comes on the scene to replace blood bags.

Agree that the arms race started way earlier. I would guess as early as 1936 in Germany, when the OG became for good a tool of government propaganda. Then the cold war. My point was really to highlight what I believe put "research" in high gear, the two boycotts, and the opportunity, 12 years after Montreal, to face off again.

Interesting coincidence that the '92 OG took place in Spain btw.

So it's not just a cold war thing either. As old as panem et circences. Ask Vladimir .

And btw, I didn't want to single anyone out, I want to make it clear. But when JV talks sort of, Jaschke talks sort of, that the ones who talk just sort of talk, it really goes to show the power of Omerta and/or doubt their motives/agenda. Too bad. The solution to expose the swindle has to be former riders talking: not sort of.

 

[Pontiac]

No worries Tonton, I'm not taking it personally! After 35-40 years or so of dealing with the inevitable questions from riders and fans about what it was like racing in Europe and the doping question, I'm quite used to all the responses. Everything from the shrug of the shoulders, the eye rolls....the subtle hint that I was creating some kind of story or the veiled insinuations such as the question from pcmg76 that I wasn't good enough or too soft to make it. Believe me I've learned to leave well enough alone over the years, which is why the only way to comment on this stuff is anonymously, at least for me.

Starstruck alluded to it as did I, there is a huge cultural difference in the European view towards the sport and what most of you in the states and Canada seem to share. In Europe, doping was an accepted part of the sport, common knowledge, talked about in virtually every race or training ride, once you demonstrated you were "good enough". In the states, doping was almost never mentioned and if it was, it was very hush, hush.....everyone looking sideways before saying anything.

Given these differences in outlook and attitude, is it any wonder that what you refer to as omertà exists? One the one hand, you guys wanted to celebrate my successes back in the day and those of my peers (think VN covers, stories, etc)..... Yet you want me to now throw my buddies under the bus for the choices they made?

As I said in a previous post, I have all the respect in the world for my peers who choose to stay in the game. They accepted the rules, played by them and succeeded. I opted out, simple as that. It's also a question of privacy in addition to respect for them. It's their story to tell, not mine.

The fact that so many of you seem to share a vision of sports as some kind of pure triumph of determination, hardwork, honesty and all that stuff.....well, that's your problem not mine, isn't it?

 

[Tonton]

Re:

No worries Tonton, I'm not taking it personally! After 35-40 years or so of dealing with the inevitable questions from riders and fans about what it was like racing in Europe and the doping question, I'm quite used to all the responses. Everything from the shrug of the shoulders, the eye rolls....the subtle hint that I was creating some kind of story or the veiled insinuations such as the question from pcmg76 that I wasn't good enough or too soft to make it. Believe me I've learned to leave well enough alone over the years, which is why the only way to comment on this stuff is anonymously, at least for me.

Starstruck alluded to it as did I, there is a huge cultural difference in the European view towards the sport and what most of you in the states and Canada seem to share. In Europe, doping was an accepted part of the sport, common knowledge, talked about in virtually every race or training ride, once you demonstrated you were "good enough". In the states, doping was almost never mentioned and if it was, it was very hush, hush.....everyone looking sideways before saying anything.

Given these differences in outlook and attitude, is it any wonder that what you refer to as omertà exists? One the one hand, you guys wanted to celebrate my successes back in the day and those of my peers (think VN covers, stories, etc)..... Yet you want me to now throw my buddies under the bus for the choices they made?

As I said in a previous post, I have all the respect in the world for my peers who choose to stay in the game. They accepted the rules, played by them and succeeded. I opted out, simple as that. It's also a question of privacy in addition to respect for them. It's their story to tell, not mine.

The fact that so many of you seem to share a vision of sports as some kind of pure triumph of determination, hardwork, honesty and all that stuff.....well, that's your problem not mine, isn't it?

I wanted to make that point though, after reading what I had posted. I didn't want Inga or anyone mentioned to feel attacked: that was not my intention at all.

As I wrote, I was trying to illustrate what you and Starstruck were facing: guys who had for some been doping since they were 16 years-old. For me, a Junior, easy to move on and not be bitter. Plus, I never knew anything, or was offered anything. It took a while to add one and one and one...for you, who knew what was going on and had a choice to make, I say chapeau. You can shave in the morning, look at yourself in the mirror.

My other point: agree that the solution begins with the riders. Or, that there's no solution without the riders being on board and participating. Former riders who talk, sort of, are hypocrites. I call them frauds.

 

[Pontiac]

I understand folks want to see the sport rid of the doping scourge, I do too. But it doesn't start with the riders, those same guys who have been used up and thrown out over the past 100 years, those thousands of kids who had the dream of racing in the TDF only to find out what it took to do that? No, it starts with giving the riders a fair shake in the sport, a meaningful and financially valuable seat at the table. Only then will you even begin to see some real change in the attitudes of all involved and some progress made riding the sport of doping.

Let me ask all of you, has anything really changed since the USADA and the Truth and reconciliation commission went through their dog and pony shows? I mean aside from Tygart getting his and the USADA name a lot of publicity so they can keep justifying their funding and Cookson and the UCI putting on a "new" face for all the fans? It sure doesn't seem like it has to me.

I know I sound pretty harsh, but I've seen the dirty side of the sport and know just how ingrained it is. The plus side of it all, from my view point, is that the concept of clean cycling is being discussed at all. It was simply unfathomable to have had a discussion of that in the '70's or '80's. So I see that as a huge step, but my point is that it'll never amount to anything until the riders are given a fair shake, financially and respect wise.

I hope that what Sniper has brought to light with this thread and the history of doping in the US will help folks to understand how deep rooted the problem is. What I'm trying to add, is that it went way beyond that given the 100 year history of the sport in Europe, we learned from them and then got just as good at it as they were.

But don't blame the riders, they'll be part of solution for sure but only if they can feel secure in being truthful. Just ask Jorg Jaschke!