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US cycling scene in the 70s and 80s

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Apr 16, 2016
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The underlying assumption being that the sport was meant to be fair and healthy from the get go. It was a spectacle to sell papers; a mythical heroic journey to capture imaginations. If we ever saw a truly clean 3 week tour it would be devastating... epic and very tragic. Nobody would be sprinting up mountains in week 3 regardless of the sciences (sans pharma.) and tech.

Get yourself in peak physical condition and do a one week tour, with or without multiple mountain passes. Try it, I dare you and wish you good luck.
 
+1000 on the two posts. And I'm on the record advocating for a NFL-style Union. When I read that some riders actually pay to ride, I wan't to puke. If I were in their shoes, who knows: maybe I'd take anything just to make it another day, and hopefully, ultimately make it. Who am I to judge...who are we to judge? The system is rotten.

Riders are and have always been on the short end of the stick, and I scream every time I hear about Bugno and the joke that the CPA is. What a joke that is. The CPA should be at the forefront of the fight, so riders get a fair wage and a pension after they retire. Promote retro-active testing, and if you get caught, goodbye the pension. That's off the cuff, but again, I'm not the smartest guy out there. But I'm smart enough to understand the issue. Where are the Merckx, Hinault, LeMond, Indurains when you really need them? There has to be a voice. The CPA is not it.

I understand that you haven't read all of my 1600 posts, fair enough. But I have never wavered in my support for the riders. But it starts with the riders. Starting with the retired ones, the ones with money, who know what's going on and should give back.
 
Re:

Starstruck said:
The underlying assumption being that the sport was meant to be fair and healthy from the get go. It was a spectacle to sell papers; a mythical heroic journey to capture imaginations. If we ever saw a truly clean 3 week tour it would be devastating... epic and very tragic. Nobody would be sprinting up mountains in week 3 regardless of the sciences (sans pharma.) and tech.

Get yourself in peak physical condition and do a one week tour, with or without multiple mountain passes. Try it, I dare you and wish you good luck.

Can't agree with that....over my career I've done somewhere around 2 dozen stage races from 5-14 days each. Basically clean, no hard stuff and not really a problem to be competitive in them. The impossible lies in trying to compete and beat guys that were prepping with stuff and getting a boost when they wanted in the race. To me, the issue isn't as much the impossibility of riding a GT, as it is the impossibility of competing clean against dopers.
 
Tonton said:
+1000 on the two posts. And I'm on the record advocating for a NFL-style Union. When I read that some riders actually pay to ride, I wan't to puke. If I were in their shoes, who knows: maybe I'd take anything just to make it another day, and hopefully, ultimately make it. Who am I to judge...who are we to judge? The system is rotten.

Riders are and have always been on the short end of the stick, and I scream every time I hear about Bugno and the joke that the CPA is. What a joke that is. The CPA should be at the forefront of the fight, so riders get a fair wage and a pension after they retire. Promote retro-active testing, and if you get caught, goodbye the pension. That's off the cuff, but again, I'm not the smartest guy out there. But I'm smart enough to understand the issue. Where are the Merckx, Hinault, LeMond, Indurains when you really need them? There has to be a voice. The CPA is not it.

I understand that you haven't read all of my 1600 posts, fair enough. But I have never wavered in my support for the riders. But it starts with the riders. Starting with the retired ones, the ones with money, who know what's going on and should give back.

Thanks for enlightening me on your views. I'd love to read all the posts, but staying married and making some money has gotta count for something right?
 
Apr 16, 2016
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Re: Re:

Pontiac said:
Starstruck said:
The underlying assumption being that the sport was meant to be fair and healthy from the get go. It was a spectacle to sell papers; a mythical heroic journey to capture imaginations. If we ever saw a truly clean 3 week tour it would be devastating... epic and very tragic. Nobody would be sprinting up mountains in week 3 regardless of the sciences (sans pharma.) and tech.

Get yourself in peak physical condition and do a one week tour, with or without multiple mountain passes. Try it, I dare you and wish you good luck.

Can't agree with that....over my career I've done somewhere around 2 dozen stage races from 5-14 days each. Basically clean, no hard stuff and not really a problem to be competitive in them. The impossible lies in trying to compete and beat guys that were prepping with stuff and getting a boost when they wanted in the race. To me, the issue isn't as much the impossibility of riding a GT, as it is the impossibility of competing clean against dopers.

We'd just winding up splitting hairs as you'd need to define all sorts of parameters (is cortisone hard stuff?) etc.

Let's just say the sport would be (and look) very different if riders were truly bread and water and leave it at that shall we? I'm not sure that would actually be healthier either and I know that Euro. doctors basically rationalize "helping" on the grounds that the sport is fundamentally inhumane.
 
Pontiac said:
Thanks for enlightening me on your views. I'd love to read all the posts, but staying married and making some money has gotta count for something right?
Same here :D . Don't read all my posts. Some of them are embarrassing. I'm very passionate. I don't know if you watched my video about Pinot on YouTube, but my favorite part is the kid on the side of the road. That was me, in '77. That's what it's all about. And here I am, almost dying on Peters Mountain (4K at 8%), picturing myself in an epic TdF stage. That's why I'll never give up. I love cycling.

But I have a 11 year-old Thor Hushovd (big dude) who wants to give it a crack. And I'm scared.
 
Jul 4, 2009
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Re:

Pontiac said:
I understand folks want to see the sport rid of the doping scourge, I do too. But it doesn't start with the riders, those same guys who have been used up and thrown out over the past 100 years, those thousands of kids who had the dream of racing in the TDF only to find out what it took to do that? No, it starts with giving the riders a fair shake in the sport, a meaningful and financially valuable seat at the table. Only then will you even begin to see some real change in the attitudes of all involved and some progress made riding the sport of doping.

Let me ask all of you, has anything really changed since the USADA and the Truth and reconciliation commission went through their dog and pony shows? I mean aside from Tygart getting his and the USADA name a lot of publicity so they can keep justifying their funding and Cookson and the UCI putting on a "new" face for all the fans? It sure doesn't seem like it has to me.

I know I sound pretty harsh, but I've seen the dirty side of the sport and know just how ingrained it is. The plus side of it all, from my view point, is that the concept of clean cycling is being discussed at all. It was simply unfathomable to have had a discussion of that in the '70's or '80's. So I see that as a huge step, but my point is that it'll never amount to anything until the riders are given a fair shake, financially and respect wise.

I hope that what Sniper has brought to light with this thread and the history of doping in the US will help folks to understand how deep rooted the problem is. What I'm trying to add, is that it went way beyond that given the 100 year history of the sport in Europe, we learned from them and then got just as good at it as they were.

But don't blame the riders, they'll be part of solution for sure but only if they can feel secure in being truthful. Just ask Jorg Jaschke!

...well it may be a bit more complex than that....

...way back when, was listening to a sports program on Radio Canada....they were interviewing two university types ( can't remember what they were as memory is a bit fuzzy after all this time ) who had done a extensive study of the Canadian Olympic team just prior to the 76 games in Montreal...so the host asked a lot of standard questions but towards the end of the interview he asked if there was anything surprising in the results...

...now remember this was before Olympic glory was associated with a huge paycheck and lasting media fame....

...so apparently for some reason the study folks threw in a crazy question ( can't remember the rationale or justification )....the question was, would you take a pill that would guarantee you a gold medal in Montreal but kill you in 5 years ?....sounds crazy eh ?... apparently 79% of the study participants said yes...now whether some said that as a joke, or whether they were serious, who knows...and unfortunately the interview kinda ended on that note...but that number stuck with me...

...so maybe it does start with the athlete and the desire to win, and maybe at all costs....?.....

Cheers
 
Apr 16, 2016
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Tonton said:
Pontiac said:
Thanks for enlightening me on your views. I'd love to read all the posts, but staying married and making some money has gotta count for something right?
Same here :D . Don't read all my posts. Some of them are embarrassing. I'm very passionate. I don't know if you watched my video about Pinot on YouTube, but my favorite part is the kid on the side of the road. That was me, in '77. That's what it's all about. And here I am, almost dying on Peters Mountain (4K at 8%), picturing myself in an epic TdF stage. That's why I'll never give up. I love cycling.

But I have a 11 year-old Thor Hushovd (big dude) who wants to give it a crack. And I'm scared.

Why be scared? He'll probably just have a blast and then discover (sexual preference inserted) and it'll all slip away. So much depends on your emphasis.
 
Apr 16, 2016
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Tonton said:
Well, if I knew then what I know today, I would forget the competitive side. I don't want my son to face what you did, have his world fall apart. sad.

That was hardly a mortal blow to my world (that came later for different reasons :)). I had a great time and if I hadn't had cycling I would have been a complete hellion. Don't worry about it, you have your eyes wide open. It's still a blast until it becomes business. Business happens around 17, like I said other activities will probably have blunted his interest by then. Let the kid have kid fun without importing your anxieties (that will probably amount to nought). Your support and emphasis still frames the picture.

ps. besides we live in a winner take all world and the same sort of corruption is everywhere.
 
Tonton said:
Well, if I knew then what I know today, I would forget the competitive side. I don't want my son to face what you did, have his world fall apart. sad.

Despite all the concerns you have, remember this....I could never haven gotten those life lessons about setting goals and working hard towards them without the sport. Sure it was heartbreaking some of the stuff I went through, but there's lots of things in life that aren't what they seem sometimes. Everything else in my life has been made better by what I went through being an athlete. It's pretty hard to find another endeavor, that teaches you the working hard equals getting rewarded lesson, as well or as quickly as sports, provided you have some genetic predisposition for it. My youngest son got into the sport at a late age (I never pushed it when the kids were young) and it is great for him.
 
Jul 4, 2009
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Starstruck said:
Tonton said:
Well, if I knew then what I know today, I would forget the competitive side. I don't want my son to face what you did, have his world fall apart. sad.

That was hardly a mortal blow to my world (that came later for different reasons :)). I had a great time and if I hadn't had cycling I would have been a complete hellion. Don't worry about it, you have your eyes wide open. It's still a blast until it becomes business. Business happens around 17, like I said other activities will probably have blunted his interest by then. Let the kid have kid fun without importing your anxieties (that will probably amount to nought). You're support and emphasis still frames the picture.

ps. besides we live in a winner take all world and the same sort of corruption is everywhere.

....absolutely ...and that lesson has to be learned somewhere....

Cheers
 
Apr 16, 2016
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blutto said:
Starstruck said:
Tonton said:
Well, if I knew then what I know today, I would forget the competitive side. I don't want my son to face what you did, have his world fall apart. sad.

That was hardly a mortal blow to my world (that came later for different reasons :)). I had a great time and if I hadn't had cycling I would have been a complete hellion. Don't worry about it, you have your eyes wide open. It's still a blast until it becomes business. Business happens around 17, like I said other activities will probably have blunted his interest by then. Let the kid have kid fun without importing your anxieties (that will probably amount to nought). You're support and emphasis still frames the picture.

ps. besides we live in a winner take all world and the same sort of corruption is everywhere.

....absolutely ...and that lesson has to be learned somewhere....

Cheers

I learned that lesson when I was 18 (maybe earlier) but I still haven't accepted it. You corrupt, selfish, greedy, myopic, mother#@$$%&! :D

ps. don't be like me. Screaming and kicking all the way to the grave isn't very dignified...but it is interesting. :) ...and I'm really not concerned - too late for that.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Re: Re:

blutto said:
...
...well it may be a bit more complex than that....

...way back when, was listening to a sports program on Radio Canada....they were interviewing two university types ( can't remember what they were as memory is a bit fuzzy after all this time ) who had done a extensive study of the Canadian Olympic team just prior to the 76 games in Montreal...so the host asked a lot of standard questions but towards the end of the interview he asked if there was anything surprising in the results...

...now remember this was before Olympic glory was associated with a huge paycheck and lasting media fame....

...so apparently for some reason the study folks threw in a crazy question ( can't remember the rationale or justification )....the question was, would you take a pill that would guarantee you a gold medal in Montreal but kill you in 5 years ?....sounds crazy eh ?... apparently 79% of the study participants said yes...now whether some said that as a joke, or whether they were serious, who knows...and unfortunately the interview kinda ended on that note...but that number stuck with me...

...so maybe it does start with the athlete and the desire to win, and maybe at all costs....?.....

Cheers
A certain Bob Goldman from Chicago did research in the early 80s and yielded results similar to those you refer to.
There’s a well-known survey in sports, known as the Goldman Dilemma. For it, a researcher, Bob Goldman, began asking elite athletes in the 1980s whether they would take a drug that guaranteed them a gold medal but would also kill them within five years. More than half of the athletes said yes. When he repeated the survey biannually for the next decade, the results were always the same. About half of the athletes were quite ready to take the bargain.

Only recently did researchers get around to asking nonathletes the same question. In results published online in February, 2009 in the British Journal of Sports Medicine, exactly 2 of the 250 people surveyed in Sydney, Australia, said that they would take a drug that would ensure both success and an early death. “We were surprised,” James Connor, Ph.D., a lecturer at the University of New South Wales and one of the study’s authors, said in an e-mail message. “I expected 10-20 percent yes.” His conclusion, unassailable if inexplicable, is that “elite athletes are different from the general population, especially on desire to win.”
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/20/phys-ed-will-olympic-athletes-dope-if-they-know-it-might-kill-them/?_r=0
There's a wikipedia entry about "Goldman's dilemma", too:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldman's_dilemma

Goldman is also the (co)author of this book:
"Death in the locker room: steroids, cocaine & sports"
I looked into the snippet preview and found some references to the Montreal Games.
So maybe Goldman is (one of) the guy(s) you refer to after all.

btw, anybody have a pdf/epub of that Goldman book?
(I'm also still looking for a pdf/epub of Sandra Sutherland's "No Brakes!: Bicycle track racing in the United States")
 
Jul 4, 2009
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Re: Re:

sniper said:
blutto said:
...
...well it may be a bit more complex than that....

...way back when, was listening to a sports program on Radio Canada....they were interviewing two university types ( can't remember what they were as memory is a bit fuzzy after all this time ) who had done a extensive study of the Canadian Olympic team just prior to the 76 games in Montreal...so the host asked a lot of standard questions but towards the end of the interview he asked if there was anything surprising in the results...

...now remember this was before Olympic glory was associated with a huge paycheck and lasting media fame....

...so apparently for some reason the study folks threw in a crazy question ( can't remember the rationale or justification )....the question was, would you take a pill that would guarantee you a gold medal in Montreal but kill you in 5 years ?....sounds crazy eh ?... apparently 79% of the study participants said yes...now whether some said that as a joke, or whether they were serious, who knows...and unfortunately the interview kinda ended on that note...but that number stuck with me...

...so maybe it does start with the athlete and the desire to win, and maybe at all costs....?.....

Cheers

The following seems related to what you refer to, although Goldman is from Chicago and his research is from the early 80s. In any case, results are similar to those you refer to.

There’s a well-known survey in sports, known as the Goldman Dilemma. For it, a researcher, Bob Goldman, began asking elite athletes in the 1980s whether they would take a drug that guaranteed them a gold medal but would also kill them within five years. More than half of the athletes said yes. When he repeated the survey biannually for the next decade, the results were always the same. About half of the athletes were quite ready to take the bargain.

Only recently did researchers get around to asking nonathletes the same question. In results published online in February, 2009 in the British Journal of Sports Medicine, exactly 2 of the 250 people surveyed in Sydney, Australia, said that they would take a drug that would ensure both success and an early death. “We were surprised,” James Connor, Ph.D., a lecturer at the University of New South Wales and one of the study’s authors, said in an e-mail message. “I expected 10-20 percent yes.” His conclusion, unassailable if inexplicable, is that “elite athletes are different from the general population, especially on desire to win.”
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/20/phys-ed-will-olympic-athletes-dope-if-they-know-it-might-kill-them/?_r=0
There's a wikipedia entry about Goldman's dilemma, too:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldman's_dilemma

Goldman is also the (co)author of this book:
"Death in the locker room: steroids, cocaine & sports"
I looked into the snippet preview and found some references to the Montreal Games.
Maybe Goldman is (one of) the guy(s) you refer to after all.


btw, anybody have a pdf/epub of that Goldman book?
(I'm also still looking for a pdf/epub of Sandra Sutherland's "No Brakes!: Bicycle track racing in the United States")

....thanks so much for confirming my recollection....because every time I bring that interview up I still have this nagging feeling that what I heard couldn't be right....it just defies my idea of reasonable....I mean I am considered a pretty competitive guy and have done some things in the heat of competition that were crazy/silly/breathtakingly stupid....but I could never ever take that pill....

....and btw to all that have contributed to this thread over the last few pages....a big thank you....while those contributions haven't written the definitive history of the period ( which methinks will never happen because of the paucity of existing material I think they gave a good insight into how things were...and it certainly reflects what I saw in my neck of the woods during that period...)....

...and special kudos to sniper for that huge effort to push this forward ( and especially in the face of so many contrarians...)....

Cheers
 
The Goldman finding is pretty well known and was discussed in the Clinic a while back. Of course, we’ll never know (I hope) if athletes would really make that choice, but I believe that when they answered that question, they really felt that they would. And just that much is pretty scary. Not to mention that if you’re willing to die to win, you’re certainly willing to be banned for a few years.

But Blutto, you might be interested to know that Goldman also tried out his poll on politicians. He asked them, if there were a pill that you could take that would guarantee you would be elected President, then suffer a political death one year after your first term was finished, would you take it? One of the candidates not only said yes, but made arrangements with Goldman to take the pill. I won’t say who the candidate was, but there are transactions on the record that suggest that an institution named Goldman did give this candidate a "magic pill" of some kind that would guarantee election.
 
Dec 7, 2010
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Merckx index said:
The Goldman finding is pretty well known and was discussed in the Clinic a while back. Of course, we’ll never know (I hope) if athletes would really make that choice, but I believe that when they answered that question, they really felt that they would. And just that much is pretty scary. Not to mention that if you’re willing to die to win, you’re certainly willing to be banned for a few years.

But Blutto, you might be interested to know that Goldman also tried out his poll on politicians. He asked them, if there were a pill that you could take that would guarantee you would be elected President, then suffer a political death one year after your first term was finished, would you take it? One of the candidates not only said yes, but made arrangements with Goldman to take the pill. I won’t say who the candidate was, but there are transactions on the record that suggest that an institution named Goldman did give this candidate a "magic pill" of some kind that would guarantee election.
Hold on now. :D Fell completely out of my chair - thanks. You owe me a new monitor and key board.

On a different note. What does 1980's blood doping program have to do with Lance?
 
Jul 4, 2009
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Merckx index said:
The Goldman finding is pretty well known and was discussed in the Clinic a while back. Of course, we’ll never know (I hope) if athletes would really make that choice, but I believe that when they answered that question, they really felt that they would. And just that much is pretty scary. Not to mention that if you’re willing to die to win, you’re certainly willing to be banned for a few years.

But Blutto, you might be interested to know that Goldman also tried out his poll on politicians. He asked them, if there were a pill that you could take that would guarantee you would be elected President, then suffer a political death one year after your first term was finished, would you take it? One of the candidates not only said yes, but made arrangements with Goldman to take the pill. I won’t say who the candidate was, but there are transactions on the record that suggest that an institution named Goldman did give this candidate a "magic pill" of some kind that would guarantee election.

....and to do whatever it takes....just had to add that ....

Cheere
 
Oct 16, 2010
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In addition to Goldman's research, this article i'm reading (see ref below) refers to:
(...) evidence provided to a US Senate committee in 1973 by Harold Connolly, the 1956 Olympic hammer-throw champion, in which he said that the majority of athletes ‘would do anything, and take anything, short of killing themselves’ to improve athletic performance.

(...) Mirkin’s study of over a hundred competitive runners, more than half of whom
indicated that they would take a ‘magic pill’ that guaranteed them an
Olympic gold medal, even if it would kill them within a year.

(...) the admission by Gideon Ariel, an American discus thrower, that
if he had had to choose during his days as an Olympic thrower between an
extra five inches in distance or an extra five years of life, he would have
chosen the distance.
Source:
Waddington, Ivan. 2005. "Changing Patterns of Drug Use in British Sport from the 1960s". In: Sport in History Volume 25, Issue 3, 472-496.
 
Pontiac said:
Tonton said:
Well, if I knew then what I know today, I would forget the competitive side. I don't want my son to face what you did, have his world fall apart. sad.

Despite all the concerns you have, remember this....I could never haven gotten those life lessons about setting goals and working hard towards them without the sport. Sure it was heartbreaking some of the stuff I went through, but there's lots of things in life that aren't what they seem sometimes. Everything else in my life has been made better by what I went through being an athlete. It's pretty hard to find another endeavor, that teaches you the working hard equals getting rewarded lesson, as well or as quickly as sports, provided you have some genetic predisposition for it. My youngest son got into the sport at a late age (I never pushed it when the kids were young) and it is great for him.

And this is our major disagreement, respectfully: the "it is what it is" outlook that I see too often from former pros. It doesn't have to be that way. What happens when your kid gets good, and you have to make a choice? Dope or get out. And congratulate the cheats.

It reminds me of global warming, oceans being dumps, and the choice that we have to make between staying on the sidelines or raising hell. Part of the problem vs. part of the solution. Props to the many contributors on CN for stirring the pot (even sniper :p ).

It doesn't have to be that way.

I'm not a complete naive bloke, I know that cheating is part of our make-up: one plus million years ago, there was a stone throwing contest, and all tried to get that extra step forward. It led to rules, and referees. And the dance began, cat vs. mouse.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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The Times alleged that British officials had colluded with athletes and with officials of foreign teams to beat the doping control system. Among these allegations were claims that a senior official of the British Amateur Athletic Board (BAAB) had acceded to a demand by East German officials that their athletes would not be tested at a meeting between East Germany and Britain in London in 1982 and that a similar deal had been struck with a United States team in 1983.
shocker :rolleyes:

Source:
Waddington, Ivan. 2005. "Changing Patterns of Drug Use in British Sport from the 1960s". In: Sport in History Volume 25, Issue 3, 472-496.
 
Tonton said:
Pontiac said:
Tonton said:
Well, if I knew then what I know today, I would forget the competitive side. I don't want my son to face what you did, have his world fall apart. sad.

Despite all the concerns you have, remember this....I could never haven gotten those life lessons about setting goals and working hard towards them without the sport. Sure it was heartbreaking some of the stuff I went through, but there's lots of things in life that aren't what they seem sometimes. Everything else in my life has been made better by what I went through being an athlete. It's pretty hard to find another endeavor, that teaches you the working hard equals getting rewarded lesson, as well or as quickly as sports, provided you have some genetic predisposition for it. My youngest son got into the sport at a late age (I never pushed it when the kids were young) and it is great for him.

And this is our major disagreement, respectfully: the "it is what it is" outlook that I see too often from former pros. It doesn't have to be that way. What happens when your kid gets good, and you have to make a choice? Dope or get out. And congratulate the cheats.

It reminds me of global warming, oceans being dumps, and the choice that we have to make between staying on the sidelines or raising hell. Part of the problem vs. part of the solution. Props to the many contributors on CN for stirring the pot (even sniper :p ).

It doesn't have to be that way.

I'm not a complete naive bloke, I know that cheating is part of our make-up: one plus million years ago, there was a stone throwing contest, and all tried to get that extra step forward. It led to rules, and referees. And the dance began, cat vs. mouse.

I hear you loud and clear! I went through years where I hated the sport and wanted nothing to do with it. I guess a combination of anger at my dreams being squashed and no one to talk to about it. I just forgot about the sport for many years and rarely talked about that part of my life. I focused on my family and career. The articles, jerseys and trophies were stored in boxes 200 miles away at my parents for many, many years. I'm not sure my kids even knew I raced until they were in their teens and my wife met me post racing.

It wasn't until I was well into my 40's that I got a bike again and began riding for fun. I even got back into racing for awhile (might be dumbest thing I've done as an adult). The feeling of getting fit again and enjoying all the good stuff that comes from riding all came back to me. My youngest got into riding, then racing, so I got to share that with him for a number of years. To be honest with you guys, my best memory of the sport is being able to do his first P123 race with him and guiding him through it and riding in a break with him. I wouldn't trade that for anything I accomplished in my racing career, seriously.....none of the Nationals medals, any of my wins, etc.

So somehow after 40 years, I've made my peace with this seriously effed up and yet beautiful sport. I'm not a religious guy, but the serenity prayer kinda sums it up for me....you know, the acceptance, courage and wisdom one.

Maybe my throwing my two cents in here will keep others keep fighting to clean up the sport. I'm ok with that. But whatever you do, don't miss out on that chance to ride and or race with your kid.
 
Apr 16, 2016
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Pontiac said:
Tonton said:
Pontiac said:
Tonton said:
Well, if I knew then what I know today, I would forget the competitive side. I don't want my son to face what you did, have his world fall apart. sad.

Despite all the concerns you have, remember this....I could never haven gotten those life lessons about setting goals and working hard towards them without the sport. Sure it was heartbreaking some of the stuff I went through, but there's lots of things in life that aren't what they seem sometimes. Everything else in my life has been made better by what I went through being an athlete. It's pretty hard to find another endeavor, that teaches you the working hard equals getting rewarded lesson, as well or as quickly as sports, provided you have some genetic predisposition for it. My youngest son got into the sport at a late age (I never pushed it when the kids were young) and it is great for him.

And this is our major disagreement, respectfully: the "it is what it is" outlook that I see too often from former pros. It doesn't have to be that way. What happens when your kid gets good, and you have to make a choice? Dope or get out. And congratulate the cheats.

It reminds me of global warming, oceans being dumps, and the choice that we have to make between staying on the sidelines or raising hell. Part of the problem vs. part of the solution. Props to the many contributors on CN for stirring the pot (even sniper :p ).

It doesn't have to be that way.

I'm not a complete naive bloke, I know that cheating is part of our make-up: one plus million years ago, there was a stone throwing contest, and all tried to get that extra step forward. It led to rules, and referees. And the dance began, cat vs. mouse.

I hear you loud and clear! I went through years where I hated the sport and wanted nothing to do with it. I guess a combination of anger at my dreams being squashed and no one to talk to about it. I just forgot about the sport for many years and rarely talked about that part of my life. I focused on my family and career. The articles, jerseys and trophies were stored in boxes 200 miles away at my parents for many, many years. I'm not sure my kids even knew I raced until they were in their teens and my wife met me post racing.

It wasn't until I was well into my 40's that I got a bike again and began riding for fun. I even got back into racing for awhile (might be dumbest thing I've done as an adult). The feeling of getting fit again and enjoying all the good stuff that comes from riding all came back to me. My youngest got into riding, then racing, so I got to share that with him for a number of years. To be honest with you guys, my best memory of the sport is being able to do his first P123 race with him and guiding him through it and riding in a break with him. I wouldn't trade that for anything I accomplished in my racing career, seriously.....none of the Nationals medals, any of my wins, etc.

So somehow after 40 years, I've made my peace with this seriously effed up and yet beautiful sport. I'm not a religious guy, but the serenity prayer kinda sums it up for me....you know, the acceptance, courage and wisdom one.

Maybe my throwing my two cents in here will keep others keep fighting to clean up the sport. I'm ok with that. But whatever you do, don't miss out on that chance to ride and or race with your kid.

At least we can talk about it honestly and openly in places like this these days without people freaking out and shouting you down. That, in itself, is a huge improvement over the last 10 years. I would post my experiences 15 years ago and it wasn't pretty.

People have a bad habit of shooting the messenger. :)

p.s. I don't think we disagree very much. I tend to think that if there ever was a completely bread and water grand tour (in some alternate universe maybe) that week 3 would be more like watching flies dropping than butterflies floating up mountains. People would still compete, there would likely be fewer finishers but it would still be dramatic - just very different. We can only hypothesize because we've never seen it.
 
Pontiac said:
To be honest with you guys, my best memory of the sport is being able to do his first P123 race with him and guiding him through it and riding in a break with him. I wouldn't trade that for anything I accomplished in my racing career, seriously.....none of the Nationals medals, any of my wins, etc.
This is one of the coolest statements that I have ever read. Sincerely. Awesome.