US prosecutors drop case against Armstrong/USPS

[Velodude]

Velodude, you've set an impossible task for yourself: You're trying to make a legal argument without addressing the law.

Could you be precise, Counselor?

 

[Neworld]

someone else responded to a question (or questions) that i posed them.

schoolings take many forms. far be it from me to suggest that many on here haven't long purported to do something similar. or your remarks back at chris for example.

so as to the autoreachround, maybe you should take your own advice and get over to the tri thread where you can still kick the embers a bit and keep the moral indignation and senseless animosity alight.

talk about scraping....

i made it clear from the outset that my interest in this topic was a juridical one (and that of politics): nothing i've said today-other than responding to you-contradicts that.

Whatever.

A simple search of an online dictionary provides...

multiplicity [ˌmʌltɪˈplɪsɪtɪ], n pl -ties
1. a large number
2. the state of being multiple

So I was using the word correctly, your responses are unfounded and petty and that above rant is rude and malevolent. Maybe the moderators will agree. All that hate over a word that I used correctly. Sad.

I guess now you're second guessing why your purely juridical interest lead you to critique my choice of 'word' and clarify the type of poster you really are. Talk about derailing a thread...for what purpose?

 

[aphronesis]

Whatever.

A simple search of an online dictionary provides...

multiplicity [ˌmʌltɪˈplɪsɪtɪ], n pl -ties
1. a large number
2. the state of being multiple

So I was using the word correctly, your responses are unfounded and petty and that above rant is rude and malevolent. Maybe the moderators will agree. All that hate over a word that I used correctly. Sad.

I guess now you're second guessing why your purely juridical interest lead you to critique my choice of 'word' and clarify the type of poster you really are. Talk about derailing a thread...for what purpose?

Yes, whatever. No hate here, call it disenchantment with where the topic went.

However, I'm not much second guessing myself. Maybe you should find a more expansive dictionary:

1. a large number or variety: a multiplicity of errors.

2. the state of being multiplex or manifold; manifold variety

Notice the word variety in even the most simplistic of online dictionaries--it means not the same. Contravenes your overall point.

Which was, let's see: made while you were responding to another poster who was responding to other posters about a thread that was stillborn two months ago and going so far as to offer said poster some advice as to how he might conduct himself, (not the first time if memory serves) and where to do it. And you accuse me of derailing the thread?

That wasn't a rant by the way. Just a couple of observations. I don't know what type of poster I am, but I am pretty sure it's not your place to tell me. Nor to tell others. Which brings us back around.

And so we don't get hung up on a couple of words that don't matter in the scheme of things. You basically told another poster that all of his posts were saying effectively the same thing, repeatedly, ad nauseam (also that they were potentially petty and spiteful); I can't get into the parenthetical thing--that's a subjective matter for those feeling delicate--but I do disagree with your more fundamental assertion. No matter which words you use and in no matter what size font.

But since I didn't want to argue with you about that--and derail this vital moment in the thread--I opted to mention that your own post negated itself. Three sentences. More polite. No big deal.

 

[MarkvW]

Could you be precise, Counselor?

Keep the blind faith!

 

[ChrisE]

Yes, whatever. No hate here, call it disenchantment with where the topic went.

*snipped for brevity*.

Don't waste your time with neworld. He/she has been beyond repair in terms of reaction to my posts ever since I wrote LA's "duping" of cancer survivors should play no part on how somebody on a jury should interpret the case.

Neworld has a fundamental disconnect over this whole legal issue, and it has driven him/her to the point of even fouling up the English language and crawfishing on his/her previous accusations. Play with neworld as you wish, but if you are expecting a light bulb to come on in his/her head then you are probably pizzing into the wind.

 

[Velodude]

Don't waste your time with neworld. He/she has been beyond repair in terms of reaction to my posts ever since I wrote LA's "duping" of cancer survivors should play no part on how somebody on a jury should interpret the case.

Neworld has a fundamental disconnect over this whole legal issue, and it has driven him/her to the point of even fouling up the English language and crawfishing on his/her previous accusations. Play with neworld as you wish, but if you are expecting a light bulb to come on in his/her head then you are probably pizzing into the wind.

Is your advisory post to aphronesis premised on that he/she (aphronesis) is an economical and succinct poster ?

 

[MarkvW]

There is no language in the UNESCO Convention requiring the United States to turn over investigative material to WADA/USADA. I doubt that the feds would turn over any materials without a court order authorizing the turnover. This is because the Grand Jury Investigation was supervised by the Federal District Court and the Federal District Court has the duty of ensuring the secrecy of Grand Jury Proceedings. Ignoring the District Court and just turning the materials over to WADA/USADA risks a contempt proceeding. It is much the safer and more prudent course for the feds to ask the federal court for permission to turn the materials over pursuant to the treaty. I cannot imagine that the feds would just blow off the District Court and release investigative materials to WADA. If there is a turnover, it would be a turnover authorized by the District Court.

The first question is whether or not the feds would themselves ask the District Court for permission to release the requested information to WADA. IF they do (a big IF), that would require the District Court to balance the wishy-washy treaty obligations imposed by the UNESCO Convention against the due process rights of US Citizens to secrecy in the grand jury investigation process. Such a battle would be extremely hotly contested, and maybe not just by Lance.

If the feds do not ask the federal court for permission, I suspect that WADA is completely powerless to obtain the information, given that the UNESCO Convention contains no explicit directive to turn the material over and no enforcement mechanism. WADA/USADA is just a bystander in this process. Any lawsuit they might file would be toothless (because the UNESCO Convention gives them no right to demand anything).

There's been some talk that the feds can release anything that wasn't specifically obtained through the grand jury process. That is not correct. The feds cannot disclose anything that would tend to indicate the direction of the grand jury investigation.

The feds have to decide (a) whether they have any chance of persuading the District Court to authorize the release of the doping information to WADA/USADA; and (b) if they do have a chance of persuading the District Court to authorize release, whether or not they want to ask the Court to do so.

My bet is that the feds will decide that they have no chance of persuading the District Court to authorize the release of the doping information and that they will refuse WADA's request on that basis. But that's just a guess (so don't flame me for it).

The faithful can pray for Congress to seek the investigative material, but I certainly don't see that happening in an election year.

 

[Race Radio]

snip

Nice try, nobody is saying anything about Grand Jury testimony being handed over.

Sorry, UNESCO has already be used in other investigations. BALCO, Jones, Papp. A lot of evidence has already been shared throughout the course of the investigation and more will come.....unless of course there corruption, like Polish and Goober claims, then it will just be an ugly mess.

 

[Polish]

...unless of course there corruption, like Polish and Goober claims, then it will just be an ugly mess.

Do you know for a FACT that the FBI investigation into leaks/corruption is over?

Didn't think so.

These things take time. But if it turns out there was insufficient evidence of corruption/leaks - I will accept it. Not whine about "expedient decisions" waawaa like you and Scott Socal

 

[Velodude]

There is no language in the UNESCO Convention requiring the United States to turn over investigative material to WADA/USADA. I doubt that the feds would turn over any materials without a court order authorizing the turnover. This is because the Grand Jury Investigation was supervised by the Federal District Court and the Federal District Court has the duty of ensuring the secrecy of Grand Jury Proceedings. Ignoring the District Court and just turning the materials over to WADA/USADA risks a contempt proceeding. It is much the safer and more prudent course for the feds to ask the federal court for permission to turn the materials over pursuant to the treaty. I cannot imagine that the feds would just blow off the District Court and release investigative materials to WADA. If there is a turnover, it would be a turnover authorized by the District Court.

The first question is whether or not the feds would themselves ask the District Court for permission to release the requested information to WADA. IF they do (a big IF), that would require the District Court to balance the wishy-washy treaty obligations imposed by the UNESCO Convention against the due process rights of US Citizens to secrecy in the grand jury investigation process. Such a battle would be extremely hotly contested, and maybe not just by Lance.

If the feds do not ask the federal court for permission, I suspect that WADA is completely powerless to obtain the information, given that the UNESCO Convention contains no explicit directive to turn the material over and no enforcement mechanism. WADA/USADA is just a bystander in this process. Any lawsuit they might file would be toothless (because the UNESCO Convention gives them no right to demand anything).

There's been some talk that the feds can release anything that wasn't specifically obtained through the grand jury process. That is not correct. The feds cannot disclose anything that would tend to indicate the direction of the grand jury investigation.

The feds have to decide (a) whether they have any chance of persuading the District Court to authorize the release of the doping information to WADA/USADA; and (b) if they do have a chance of persuading the District Court to authorize release, whether or not they want to ask the Court to do so.

My bet is that the feds will decide that they have no chance of persuading the District Court to authorize the release of the doping information and that they will refuse WADA's request on that basis. But that's just a guess (so don't flame me for it).

The faithful can pray for Congress to seek the investigative material, but I certainly don't see that happening in an election year.

The US attempts to be seen as honoring its obligations under international conventions.

If the US does not want to participate it either does not sign up, withdraws (Kyoto protocol under GWB) or look to definitions and reinterpretations (eg the US was not technically at "war" relating to Geneva convention and treatment of war against terror prisoners).

Do you really believe that for the benefit of one US citizen, Lance Edward Armstrong, the US would endanger its repute as being seen as an international pariah and risk being excluded from future international events (as provided in the convention)?

 

[Polish]

Do you really believe that for the benefit of one US citizen, Lance Edward Armstrong, the US would endanger its repute as being seen as an international pariah and risk being excluded from future international events (as provided in the convention)?

Sure, why not.
Its Lance after all.

And the International Community hate us anyway.
Probably jealous.
Can't blame them though.
OneTwoThreeFourFiveSixSeven in a row.

 

[MarkvW]

Nice try, nobody is saying anything about Grand Jury testimony being handed over.

Sorry, UNESCO has already be used in other investigations. BALCO, Jones, Papp. A lot of evidence has already been shared throughout the course of the investigation and more will come.....tunless of course there corruption, like Polish and Goober claims, then it will just be an ugly mess.

Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you the future party line of Race Radio's Borat Group: Either there is turnover to WADA or there is corruption. So sayeth Race Radio. Amen and Hallelujah!

Forget the fact that a whole lot of people might be hurt by being outed as Lance snitches and only talked to avoid being called before the Grand Jury. Either the feds give up those people to WADA or the feds are corrupt! Let me have a chorus of Betsy!

Forget the fact that the disclosure of information might reveal the direction and course of the grand jury investigation! Grand jury secrecy means nothing when balanced against the holy prosecution of Lance! Give me three Howmans and a Tygart!

Forget the fact that a federal judge might have something to say about a release of information! If the judge blocks release, the judge is corrupt too!! Praise Novitsky!

You've got to have a lot of blind faith if you want to worship in Race Radio's Borat Group!

 

[Race Radio]

Do you know for a FACT that the FBI investigation into leaks/corruption is over?

Didn't think so.

These things take time. But if it turns out there was insufficient evidence of corruption/leaks - I will accept it. Not whine about "expedient decisions" waawaa like you and Scott Socal

Goober is telling us it ain't over. Could be the greatest leak/corruption scandal since Watergate. Big Jeff is going down.....yeah right

I hate to question Goober but the next step is USDA not the FBI

 

[MarkvW]

The US attempts to be seen as honoring its obligations under international conventions.

If the US does not want to participate it either does not sign up, withdraws (Kyoto protocol under GWB) or look to definitions and reinterpretations (eg the US was not technically at "war" relating to Geneva convention and treatment of war against terror prisoners).

Do you really believe that for the benefit of one US citizen, Lance Edward Armstrong, the US would endanger its repute as being seen as an international pariah and risk being excluded from future international events (as provided in the convention)?

I think we can be quite confident that the material will never be released unless a federal judge authorizes the release. I'm not going to get my hopes up on that!

 

[Caruut]

Listen to this guy. Thanks for the advice lol.

What am I trying to get people to do? I was just commenting to Mark that I don't really have as much energy as I did before to argue with the scorched earth crew. Yes, the obsession of some in here in seeing him fall leads me to believe they have mental issues. It is a cult. So what?

As for "reasoning with either side", my side is it was all dropped for good reasons, but since there is no absolute proof of that I guess that makes me a troll.

You wind people up, try and get them angry. Saying they've got mental issues and are part of a cult. It's needless, obviously not true and clear that you do it for the reaction. I can't understand why you feel the need to do that. I consider you a troll not because of what you think, but the way you conduct yourself.

 

[ChrisE]

You wind people up, try and get them angry. Saying they've got mental issues and are part of a cult. It's needless, obviously not true and clear that you do it for the reaction. I can't understand why you feel the need to do that. I consider you a troll not because of what you think, but the way you conduct yourself.

I'm blunt and write what I think. Some people can handle it, some can't.

 

[Caruut]

I'm blunt and write what I think. Some people can handle it, some can't.

Blunt would imply you are to the point - it is usually anything but. Everything is covered in weasel words and cheap wind-up tricks.

 

[ChrisE]

Blunt would imply you are to the point - it is usually anything but. Everything is covered in weasel words and cheap wind-up tricks.

Allrighty then.

You are free not to reply to my posts. Thanks.

 

[MarkvW]

Allrighty then.

You are free not to reply to my posts. Thanks.

He is actually making a constructive suggestion. Chop the extraneous stuff and your posts will be the better for it. Carrut was rather polite. Are not his posts thought out and reasonable? Do you want to discourage his participation? Just a suggestion....

 

[thehog]

Goober is telling us it ain't over. Could be the greatest leak/corruption scandal since Watergate. Big Jeff is going down.....yeah right

I hate to question Goober but the next step is USDA not the FBI

I was a non- believer. But had a beer with a mate last night in the scene.

Said Armstrong was farked UsADA wise and personally. They already have a bucket load of material. He also said the guy is wasted, spent, tired. Can't go on.

My frame had changed

Told me some great stories. It was good night. Got blasted.

Once I kick my hangover I'll reconcile it all.

 

[Velodude]

I'm blunt and write what I think. Some people can handle it, some can't.

Actually on another cycling forum (same Chris E from Houston Tx) he was particularly blunt against Armstrong compatriots Hamilton & Landis.

One can now see that that avid opposition was allegedly designed to dowse the gleams of the US pretenders to the same court of his Texan hero, Armstrong.

 

[Race Radio]

Said Armstrong was farked UsADA wise and personally. They already have a bucket load of material. He also said the guy is wasted, spent, tired. Can't go on.
.

Yup.

That "Managed admission" is drawing closer. Used to think it was 3-5 years away, now it is just a matter of time.

"I did what I had to do in order to give hope to millions and raise awareness"

 

[Anonymous]

I'm blunt and write what I think. Some people can handle it, some can't.

So the gratuitous garbage directed at Betsy was what, exactly?

You are what you are. Since the mods don't care the rest of us will just have to deal with it.

 

[Anonymous]

He is actually making a constructive suggestion. Chop the extraneous stuff and your posts will be the better for it. Carrut was rather polite. Are not his posts thought out and reasonable? Do you want to discourage his participation? Just a suggestion....

You will have better results banging your head against a wall.

 

[Anonymous]

Yup.

That "Managed admission" is drawing closer. Used to think it was 3-5 years away, now it is just a matter of time.

"I did what I had to do in order to give hope to millions and raise awareness"

"I did what I had to do in order to give hope to millions and raise awareness"

Can you effing imagine if this came to pass? How does one elegantly say, "I am a fraud, liar, cheater, bully and fake to the core... But I do have a cancer charity that I have raped for my own personal gain. I think if I try real hard I can be a changed man by the end of this presser."