US prosecutors drop case against Armstrong/USPS

[Benotti69]

You still don't get it do you? The only mountain of evidence that existed was here in the clinic. Yesterday you witnessed the value of clinic evidence. Think of all of this like the story of Johan flushing my hero Landis' blood down the toilet. Turns out it never happened. Can we just turn out the lights in the clinic now, it's a bigger fail than Novitzky.

The mountain of evidence had Bruyneel running from the Giro like a scared rabbit and him not turning up in USA, never mind Popo trying to outrun the Feds at the ToC.

It was all down to money and connections.

The evidence is there, someone decided Armstrong was not for frying today.

Maybe this will turn out to be a good thing because now Armstrong will really begin to believe he is untouchable and will be the architect of his own downfall.

 

[hrotha]

JohanBruyneel JohanBruyneel
A good friend of mine told me this last week and it's so true: "Wisdom consist in knowing what to overlook."

Lol Johan, I'm not sure that's the best choice of words for you guys

 

[peterst6906]

If USADA do follow through on their statement, then hopefully they don't end up like this also:

 

[andy1234]

I have to agree with you. There wasn't enough and to be honest doping is not a crime.

Feel a bit for Tyler. He protected the franchise with his silence year upon year lost and when the GJ forced out his testimony and he confessed he was dammed.

Floyd is still the man but I don't know where this leaves him.

There are no winners in this game.

I think the moral of the story is, if you want to convict someone of doping and corruption, don't base the case on the testimony of corrupt individuals.

 

[Benotti69]

I think the moral of the story is, if you want to convict someone of doping and corruption, don't base the case on the testimony of corrupt individuals.

Works in Italy when prosecuting the Mafia.

Works in USA when prosecuting the Mafia.

Problem is when the Mafia court and corrupt the Judges, politicians and police.

Armstrong/Weisel picked the best connect lawyers.

 

[JRTinMA]

babble, babble, babble

Maybe this will turn out to be a good thing because now Armstrong will really begin to believe he is untouchable and will be the architect of his own downfall.

Ignoring the usual clinic babble you have pointed out a potential future outcome that would please many clinic dwellers. Maybe one day satisfaction will come to you through this scenario. I should also remind you that a "wait and hope" strategy is never a good one.

 

[doolols]

I was going to quote interesting / useful bits of posts here, but there are so many. Fascinating read and, for the most part, well-behaved. Thank you.

Does anyone care? Here in the UK, few people know or care about his doping. He isn't Wayne Rooney (or John Terry for that matter), and he hasn't been caught cheating with his brother's wife. A Facebook status about this has been ignored by everyone, including friends in my cycle club. It's all too easy to get totally focussed on something, and believe that it's the world's biggest story. I'm afraid it isn't.

Travis Tygart of the USADA travelled with Novitsky to Europe, which would mean that they would have been sharing information all along. But, as someone said somewhere, LA's lawyers are going to be going full out to seal all of the evidence and ban its use in any future doping-related cases. If they do that, then LA is free and clear. And I think some of us need to get used to that possibility.

 

[patricknd]

Let´s not get off topic too far. But Baader and Meinhof were sent to prison because they were guilty. Yes, a lot of shady things going on here.

But hey, back to Armstrong. What else did Novitsky need? Countless witnesses under oath said they saw Armstrong doping. There are countless positive samples of Armstrong. Not even the biggest names got away in germany with that much evidence against them. Again, i do not understand USA!

the problem is that he wasn't going to be charged with doping, but crimes/conspiracy related to the doping. i would imagine they declined to prosecute because they couldn't connect the dots on the conspiracy well enough to get a conviction. the riders that saw him dope weren't priviy to the decisions made higher up the management ladder. they were the grunts carrying out the orders.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Lol Johan, I'm not sure that's the best choice of words for you guys

yea...very strange words to use. lol but he always try to be philosphical on his tweets

 

[patricknd]

To the highlighted - simply put, there is nothing in the US statutes on doping, so all that "countless witnesses" means little.
As an example, "countless witnesses" (ok, 7 or 8) saw Lance infuse blood in a bus, not a crime.

So, when you ask what did Novitsky need - it was to attach Armstrong to criminal offenses. I was pretty confident that he would be able to but I also saw that it was a difficult task.

my feeling as well. i thought there would be indictments, but if he was convicted of anything it would be along the barry bonds lines.

 

[patricknd]

OK. I tought systematically doping with the help of tax payers money was/is a crime. OTOH game fixing is no crime either in the US. So nothing should surprise me anymore... BTW, if you have a beer in your hand publicly, it´s a crime, as i learned back in 1997. Funny country. The land of the free.

Anyway, at least Novitsky could have brought Armstrong to talk under oath. He would have lied then. After that, Novitsky would have had something against him. That leaves a sour taste.

on the bolded that depends on the municipality you are in at the time.

 

[Poursuivant]

If the Italian investigation into Ferrari is still ongoing, I wonder if those reports of LA using "codes" over the phone will ever see the light of day. When he heard the news, whenever it was, Armstrong must have been one happy chappy.

 

[thehog]

I think the moral of the story is, if you want to convict someone of doping and corruption, don't base the case on the testimony of corrupt individuals.

Problem being there are no winners in any of this. I'm sure as part of the negotiation that Fabani agreed that Armstrong wouldn't belittle the government investigators if the case was dropped. I don't think you'll hear much from Armstrong on the matter.

Its all an unseemly mess. One wonders where SCA, Sunday Times etc. go from here. Not sure they'll have access to any of the information as Fabani will request to have it all sealed.

At least the chapter is closed. I think its time to move on. Sure he doped but still won the race. Don't know if that means much anymore. I guess we'll never know about the Ferrari payments and the prep for the 2009/2010 Tours. Sad. From a salacious point of view I really wanted to know!

 

[Benotti69]

<snip>

At least the chapter is closed. I think its time to move on. Sure he doped but still won the race. Don't know if that means much anymore. I guess we'll never know about the Ferrari payments and the prep for the 2009/2010 Tours. Sad. From a salacious point of view I really wanted to know!

The saddest thing is it shows that dopers who think big can get away with it.

Become too big to get caught as it will cause too much 'hurt'.

How many are now planning for the future along the lines used by Bruyneel and Armstrong using a doping doctor, trying to establish a contact in a lab, bribing federations etc.....?

 

[patricknd]

Another nail in the coffin of justice.

Not hard to see what happened. Powerful and rich connections managed to pull the plug.

It must have been some party at the YellowRose last night.

you're just bitter because you weren't invited

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

OK, folks, we have been lenient so far. The absolute worst postings have been edited. Please don't feel it necessary to report every singly posting you don't like.

Stay on topic and play nicely, like the last few pages.

Susan

 

[JRTinMA]

Great work by Fabiani and Lehane. Worth every penny.

Still have the Qui Tam case. Ferrari is still going to prison. USADA is still in play.

Money and power

Wrong again RR. Are you basing this on insider information or the Italians feeble prosecution rate for tax evasion? Btw, I am not 100% sure we still have the qui tam case. Ok, USADA is still in play. Cima call one of your friends and check this out, ok? Not the ones advising you on the LA proceedings please. Can you get back to me by tuesday?

 

[phanatic]

USA should be ashamed of their legal system.

The investigation was ridiculous, and a despicable abuse of federal power. If Lance or the team management were to be found guilty of defrauding the government during the USPostal years, it would be difficult to prove without implicating the government in the fraud as well, since doping in sports was well known and the slightest research into cycling would have revealed its own problems. The Post Office claiming ignorance in doping scandals in any sport is a laugh riot, especially during the reign of Sosa, McGwire, Bonds, etc.

 

[rhubroma]

What does Capitalism have to do with this?

What, per say? How about the corrupting and overbearing influence that capital, and wealth in general, has on the judiciary process in our market driven world. To say nothing of the contumacy of the persona in question, which is directly proportional to the economic means and special interests with which he was able to avail himself at the expense of all truth, reason and justice.

In a country in which everything is bargained for and everyone gets defrauded, reason and truth count far less than do falsehood, deception and simulation, in a legal apparatus that has become reduced to something which can be bought and sold to the highest bidder (i.e. capitalismo). Having been so completely subsumed within a certain economic logic, of which capitalism is both the physical incarnation and purest spirit, our once venerable legal system today abjures reasoned behavior and the truth for injurious actions against the victimized, and transforms deplorable actions verily into eximious ones. In cases like these, its a complete farce.

Armstrong's VIP legal team, of enormous expense, has successfully lobbied for excisions in the accusations brought against him more necessary to obtaining the truth, than allowing all the BS and factual nonsense of his positions to covering it up.

Other than that, I'd say look at the systems of our world, how they work, under which interests and forces are they really governed by and you will basically always come back to a primary source: money, soldi, denaro, etc. And, at the same time, get a clue.

One begins to do this by extracting wholesome lessons from seeing the world, not from the periwigged courtly very English mixture of manners and morals, but through the solemn eyes of Latinate obliquity and acerbity.

A world lacking in ideals may well be an intellectual construction, just as it may make us appear frosty and cynical, though it spares us the rather irksome quality of an unsupportable ingenuousness.

 

[Benotti69]

What, per say? How about the corrupting and overbearing influence that capital, and wealth in general, has on the judiciary process in our market driven world. To say nothing of the contumacy of the persona in question, which is directly proportional to the economic means and special interests with which he was able to avail himself at the expense of all truth, reason and justice.

In a country in which everything is bargained for and everyone gets defrauded, reason and truth count far less than do falsehood, deception and simulation, in a legal apparatus that has become reduced to something which can be bought and sold to the highest bidder (i.e. capitalismo). Having been so completely subsumed within a certain economic logic, of which capitalism is both the physical incarnation and purest spirit, our once venerable legal system today abjures reasoned behavior and the truth for injurious actions against the victimized, and transforms deplorable actions verily into eximious ones. In cases like these, a complete farce.

Armstrong's VIP legal team, of enormous expense, has successfully lobbied for excisions in the accusations brought against him more necessary to obtaining the truth, than allowing all the BS and factual nonsense of his positions to covering it up.

Other than that, I'd say look at the systems of our world, how they work, under which interests and forces are they really governed by and you will basically always come back to a primary source: money, soldi, denaro, etc. And, at the same time, get a clue.

One begins to do this by extracting wholesome lessons from seeing the world, not from the periwigged courtly very English mixture of manners and morals, but through the solemn eyes of Latinate obliquity and acerbity.
A world lacking in ideals may well be an intellectual construction, just as it may make us appear frosty and cynical, though it spares us the rather irksome quality of an unsupportable ingenuousness.

Well posted.

 

[uspostal]

Well it seems we were waiting for Friday not Tuesday after all.

 

[Pantani_lives]

So I wonder if something went really wrong suddenly or ...
like in a crime show ---pretend it's over and then some boasting brings the guy down??

That's the difference between fiction and reality. In fiction the good guys always win. Reality is slightly different.

Another great day for the doping mafia!

 

[webvan]

Problem being there are no winners in any of this. I'm sure as part of the negotiation that Fabani agreed that Armstrong wouldn't belittle the government investigators if the case was dropped. I don't think you'll hear much from Armstrong on the matter.

Bingo : http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/armstrong-welcomes-end-of-federal-investigation

Mellowest LA so far :

“I am gratified to learn that the U.S. Attorney's Office is closing its investigation," Lance Armstrong said in a statement. "It is the right decision and I commend them for reaching it. I look forward to continuing my life as a father, a competitor, and an advocate in the fight against cancer without this distraction."

Best summary so far : "“Our legal system failed us," Andreu said, according to ESPN. "This is what happens when you have a lot of money.""

 

[The Plediadian]

Why don´t you actually read?? I did NOT start to write about Baader Meinhof, nor did i compare them to any kind of the Armstrong issue. If anything i "warned" my dialog partner not to go off topic too much.

I mean i can ignore trolls. But it goes wayyy too far to acuse me of something i didn´t do or said.

I hope the mods step in here, before it gets out of hand! This forum shall not debauch like any other espn or eurosport thread.

Thanks in advance.

All I am saying is don't criticize the US justice system, unless you pay taxes here.

Kangaroo courts are kangaroo courts.

You sir, compared the justice that would have been whetted by the justice system in your country, calling our justice system a travesty.

Nothing about Armstrong at all.

 

[scribe]

Best summary so far : "“Our legal system failed us," Andreu said, according to ESPN. "This is what happens when you have a lot of money.""

Sorry Betsy. Not being liked by someone is not crime. Cause a little hot sauce on furrin soil is something the Feds decided against pursuing here... so there is nothing else left to it.

If it were a crime to not be liked, Lance Armstrong would be serving several consecutive life sentences.