US prosecutors drop case against Armstrong/USPS

[Yeahright]

thanks zam...somehow, this critical piece of news got buried.

pelkey's article pointing to how usada can obtain the gj evidence and wada clarifying the path are the clearest signals that it is NOT over.

would wada even bother commenting on the evidence availability if it was unsure ? the intuitive answer is it would be highly uncharacteristic of wada.

someone burped that usada may go after rock racing.

again, i doubt tygart would bother to time his statement of the case 'continuity' withe official announcement of 'discontinuity'.

besides, somehow many forgot that usada and wada ALREADY have most of the circumstantial evidence as they worked hand in hand with novi.

let's reload on pop corn.

My god Python, I told you two years ago that this would all end in tears...for you and got abused and worse for my trouble. If you are pinning your hopes on this you will end up choking on your popcorn

 

[python]

why instead of producing incoherency not follow the case ? i guess fear and gloating can be choking.

 

[Yeahright]

If Armstrong loses the USADA case, Ferrari ends up in Prison, Brunyeel is exposed......did Armstrong really win? There are few rational people who still think he won clean. The flood of testimony from former teammates is only going to increase with the USADA case.

Yes, he dodged prison but at the cost of millions of $$$ in legal fees, a reputation in tatters, and the prospect of loosing one, or more, of his Tour victories. That is Charlie Sheen style "winning"

RR give it up. As I said his reputation will be enhanced through this outcome, not in tatters. As far as Joe Public is concerned he will be seen as the victim in all of this. Their view will be, millions of tax payer dollars wasted and given the feds had two years to put up a case then couldn't, Lance was obviously speaking the truth all the time.Of course his PR machine will push that message to the max. (they already are). Sorry but you are naive in the extreme if you think your latest prophesy will be realised. It will burn just like all the rest of them.

The reality is that he is a cancer hero, 99.9% of people couldn't give a toss whether he won clean or not. He won and that is all that matters in the US (in the public eye) and now he has won again against the power of the State.

In the wake of the BB debacle, the public have no interest in another great American hero being exposed as a fraud, especially one who is so closely associated with a worthy cause. Any Attorney General with half a brain would realise that.

 

[peterst6906]

Oh, there is someone angry that we didn´t convert to blind fanboys like you people hoped for. Bad luck for you, uhh?

You think some 100-post fanboys of which 80 is showing love to "Wonderboy" means credibility? Epic fail!

Sorry, you lost me on two fronts. I think you are calling me a fanboy, but not sure. Perhaps go back and read my earlier posts and see if that's still the case. And where did credibility come into this. You mentioned integrity, not credibility.

But your post perfectly demonstrates what I had posted. There's no integrity in using the annonymity of the internet to attack other posters (no matter which side they are on) in ways that most people wouldn't be prepared to say face to face.

However, this is a distraction. Not relevant to the topic.

 

[Yeahright]

why instead of producing incoherency not follow the case ? i guess fear and gloating can be choking.

Well we have had to put up with a lot of your gloating and pompous proclamations of the 'overwhelming amount of evidence' over the past while, so excuse me if I reciprocate for a couple of days in return while you gorge on humble pie.

And the only fear I have is the fear of you making a total fool of yourself....again.

 

[python]

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/11070/WADA-president-says-he-expects-

WADA President John Fahey has backed the US Anti-Doping Agency’s statement that it plans to delve into the evidence and to consider if doping violations were committed.

 

[craig1985]

Lance, if by high profile you mean connections to rich white men with friends in high places and something to lose.

To the general American public?

 

[python]

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/1...rs-to-hand-over-US-Postal-files-to-USADA.aspx

A source close to the previous investigation told VeloNation that there were concerns that evidence might not necessarily be transferred to USADA, thus forcing the agency to work with less material. However Fahey makes it clear that due to prior agreements, he expects this to happen without delay.

 

[Ferminal]

Well we have had to put up with a lot of your gloating and pompous proclamations of the 'overwhelming amount of evidence' over the past while, so excuse me if I reciprocate for a couple of days in return while you gorge on humble pie.

And the only fear I have is the fear of you making a total fool of yourself....again.

You've had your fun and made your point, time to return to some sensibilities, and that is a message for all.

 

[doolols]

Mate, at the end of the day Novitsky had 2 years to come up with a credible primae facie case and plenty of resource to do just that. Okay he was on a bit of a hiding with his main witnesses being either confessed liars or flakes but he still had plenty of opportunity to produce plenty of other damning evidence if it was there. If you can't get an indictment after two years then you are either incompetent (which I am sure Novitsky isn't) or the evidence is not there, despite what RR and Hog etc. have spent two years telling us ad- nauseum.

So there's a time limit on these cases is there? I wasn't aware of that.

You infer that it was not about the evidence but rather about political interference. That may or may not be the case but given that much of the evidence will be publicly available to other parties it would be a dangerous game to play.

Which is it? Publicly available, or available to other parties. The two are most definitely not the same.

Now you are playing the conspiracy card which really is all you have left other than the moral outrage card that others have already played. I hope that rather than continue with this nonsense you will move on, forget Lance and focus on the new era of cycling.[

To be honest, I played that card with my tongue in cheek. But if you're inferring that it can't / doesn't / shouldn't happen, then I'm afraid that, with respect, you're a little naiive. Who knows whether there's a connection there? But the timing is a little strange. The very day that the investigation is called off, Livestrong trumpet about a large donation to a cause of interest to the person that nominated the man who called the investigation off? Actually, you're right. It's all a coincidence. That Armstrong character, he sure is at the centre of a lot of coincidences. It's probably because he fought cancer, trained harder, etc etc etc zzzzzzzzzz

The funny part for me is that on many topics I actually agree with RR and others, particularly in relation to the UCI but the Lance case was always a no brainer.

It's funny how so many people are coming out of the woodwork and playing the "I told you so" card. 20/20 hindsight

 

[FKLance]

What I find the worst thing: the two polarizing opinions on the LA case today.
The one organization who is supposed to take care of antidoping in cycling could not care less if someone doped.

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/11070/WADA-president-says-he-expects-US-investigators-to-hand-over-US-Postal-files-to-USADA.aspx

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/11068/Interview-UCI-reacts-to-investigators-dropping-ArmstrongUS-Postal-Service-case.aspx

 

[Stingray34]

Conspiracy theory recap

Just a few things:

*US Attorney Andre Birotte Jr unilaterally ends investigation on Friday

* Reportably, he only informs other investigators Inc Novitzky only 30 mins before going public

* Reportably, investigators and witness alike amazed, flabbergasted, pi$$ed, etc

* Birotte appointed by one Sen Boxer (Cal), who has strong ties to a cancer charity

*The same day GJ disbanded, LiveStrong announces 100K donation to charity that Sen Boxer has strong ties to

*As we already know, LA's legal team has strong ties to influential members of both sides of US political aisle

*Target of GJ is an American hero (ie, a winner) and whole case a bad PR exercise

*This poster dislikes being an involuntary and extremely minor character in bad airport novel...

I'd much rather believe the case was just a loser. I really, really hope the above is either wildly inaccurate or just coincidental.

And if it's not, we don't have to do $hit about it, because vice cultivates in its own breast the demons that will carry it away.

Long live the USA

 

[rhubroma]

RR give it up. As I said his reputation will be enhanced through this outcome, not in tatters. As far as Joe Public is concerned he will be seen as the victim in all of this. Their view will be, millions of tax payer dollars wasted and given the feds had two years to put up a case then couldn't, Lance was obviously speaking the truth all the time.Of course his PR machine will push that message to the max. (they already are). Sorry but you are naive in the extreme if you think your latest prophesy will be realised. It will burn just like all the rest of them.

The reality is that he is a cancer hero, 99.9% of people couldn't give a toss whether he won clean or not. He won and that is all that matters in the US (in the public eye) and now he has won again against the power of the State.

In the wake of the BB debacle, the public have no interest in another great American hero being exposed as a fraud, especially one who is so closely associated with a worthy cause. Any Attorney General with half a brain would realise that.

Apart from the issues regarding the power that money has in buying "justice" in the US, which have previously been discussed, and which is naturally appalling, your points also bear in mind how little power the State actually does have when up against matters of both patriotic and ideological import.

Patriotic because he is an "American hero" who won against cancer and the dastardly foreigner block, and indeed the whole world, in exotic France; ideological because in a country that is uber-capitalistic and ensconced in such insecure times, nothing could do worse for the image of its system than to see one of its heroes fall. For which the State is viewed as the problem and not the solution, as an intrusive, in this case like the Inquisition, instrument of oppression, which meddles in the affairs of innocent citizens, and as such a despicable crusade against both liberty and values. Ha! I put the cancer foundation floating somewhere between the two.

Never mind that most of the people are totally ignorant of the events and circumstances for which the accusations were brought to bear against him, destracted by all the misinformation they have been given, as well as their own desire to have national heros to sustain and applaud. Money too, is able to overcome, as it did in this case, the overwhelming damning testimony, which, however, only has value, in proportion to how loud and present its voices get announced and heard. For the people aren't in control of the information they receive, but the one who holds the bullhorn, or rather controls the on and off switch.

Lance and his entourage controlled that switch much more than his adversaries. Yet to have been able to do that as effectively as he did, one has to have some political and corporate cover and support with which, no doubt, his powerful friends in the republican party and corporate America availed him.

Floyd and Tyler were up against an irresistible force, one which transformed truths into falsehoods and vice versa; are thus lambs sacrificed at the altar of American business and politics. It makes a grotesque and rather spectacular charade of justice and demonstrates how easily it is to hoodwink the masses too, but the infamous American way has come out untarnished and that's all that counts.

 

[Stingray34]

Apart from the issues regarding the power that money has in buying "justice" in the US, which have previously been discussed, and which is naturally appalling, your points also bear in mind how little power the State actually does have when up against matters of both patriotic and ideological import.

Patriotic because he is an "American hero" who won against cancer and the dastardly foreigner block, and indeed the whole world, in exotic France; ideological because in a country that is uber-capitalistic and ensconced in such insecure times, nothing could do worse for the image of its system than to see one of its heroes fall. For which the State is viewed as the problem and not the solution, as an intrusive, in this case like the Inquisition, instrument of oppression, which meddles in the affairs of innocent citizens, and as such a despicable crusade against both liberty and values. Ha! I put the cancer foundation flouting somewhere between the two.

Never mind that most of the people are totally ignorant of the events and circumstances for which the accusations were brought to bear against him. But even this doesn't matter because here, money too, is able to overcome, as it did in this case, the overwhelming damning testimony, which, however, only has value, in proportion to how loud and present its voices get heard. For the people aren't in control of the information they receive, but the one who holds the bullhorn, or rather controls the off and on switch.

Lance and his entourage controlled that switch, but to have been able to do that as effectively as he did, one has to have some political and corporate cover and support, with which no doubt his powerful friends in the republican party and the corporate America availed him.

Floyd and Tyler were up against an irresistible force, one which transformed truths into falsehoods and vice versa; are thus lambs sacrificed at the altar of American business and politics. It makes a grotesque and rather spectacular charade of justice and demonstrates how easily it is to hoodwink the masses too, but the infamous American way has come out untarnished and that's all that counts.

If lance and co controlled that switch, why did it take so long for them to flick it? It doesn't really add up.

I largely agree with you on the corrupting influence of money, though. As member of a moral species, which is to say, a species that has pro-social emotions that contribute to the well-being of others, the primacy of money as a motivating and victorious factor is indeed appalling.

However, I also see this as an inevitable and deterministic stage of human social development. The increasing individualism is the result of a number of historical processes. Basically, we're a species in adolescence moving towards maturity. A lot of young people just don't make it. We may be among them. We seem to be in an incredibly destructive and insouciant age, and Americans are the pimpliest SOBs on the block.

 

[Benotti69]

Well it is nice to see all Armstrong's fans still posting in the clinic.

I would have thought that since their deity will not be indicted they can head off to spread the very important message of 'awareness' and flog mechandise with bits of yella on it. Jet fuel aint cheap ya know.

But no they are still here. Seems to me y'all still fearful of the clinic and the information it provides to those who look for doping related issues in cycling.

Well the next round of discussion on Armstrong is what USADA/WADA can do.

And this will be very big in the sporting history of Armstrong maintaining his somewhat tattered reputation with supporters continuing in the meantime to post the 'never tested positive', 'beat the Feds' and other homilies that will no doubt get trotted out.

I think this thread has run its course and a new thread discussing the USADA/WADA case against Armstrong should be opened.

 

[rhubroma]

If lance and co controlled that switch, why did it take so long for them to flick it? It doesn't really add up.

I largely agree with you on the corrupting influence of money, though. As member of a moral species, which is to say, a species that has pro-social emotions that contribute to the well-being of others, the primacy of money as a motivating and victorious factor is indeed appalling.

However, I also see this as an inevitable and deterministic stage of human social development. The increasing individualism is the result of a number of historical processes. Basically, we're a species in adolescence moving towards maturity. A lot of young people just don't make it. We may be among them. We seem to be in an incredibly destructive and insouciant age, and Americans are the pimpliest SOBs on the block.

What I meant about controlling the "on" and "off" switch was in regards to having command over the mechanism itself ( that is the media info-propaganda), metaphorically speaking of course. Sure the feds, armed with the testimony of Floyd, Tyler, Betsy, et al., and helped by real news sources like 60 Minutes had a bullhorn, but Lance was ultimately able to "switch it off," had the power to muddle and hush its valid announcements so that they seemed to fall upon deaf ears. While his bullhorn, when turned on, was like the incessant cries of a very American Truman Show, the sheer volume of which exercised a formidable and ultimately winning power of persuasion.

This also demonstrates how vapid popularism has much more currency in US society and in the interests behind its judicial and business praxis, than do actual facts and good sources of information.
But every country deserves the heroes it gets.

I think that we are still in an embryonic stage, given that society is governed, as has always been, according to special interests that reside in wealth, political ideology and corporate enterprise, for which “truth” in this case exists independent of actual facts, but arbitrarily in the voice stating it.

 

[Stingray34]

What I meant about controlling the "on" and "off" switch was in regards to having command over the mechanism itself ( that is the media info-propaganda), metaphorically speaking of course. Sure the feds, armed with the testimony of Floyd, Tyler, Betsy, et al., and helped by real news sources like 60 Minutes had a bullhorn, but Lance was ultimately able to "switch it off," had the power to muddle and hush its valid announcements so that they seemed to fall upon deaf ears. While his bullhorn, when turned on, was like the incessant cries of a very American Truman Show, the sheer volume of which exercised a formidable and ultimately winning power of persuasion.

This also demonstrates how vapid popularism has much more currency in US society and in the interests behind its judicial and business praxis, than do actual facts and good sources of information.
But every country deserves the heroes it gets.

I think that we are still in an embryonic stage, given that society is governed, as has always been, according to special interests that reside in wealth, political ideology and corporate enterprise, for which “truth” in this case exists independent of actual facts, but arbitrarily in the voice stating it.

Yeah, I can see that: Lance did draw on a wellspring of goodwill and apparent good works, so his profile did help in this regard. Recent articles, including the one just posted on CN with Selena Roberts, indicate the messiness of dealing with a popular hero.

And yes, special interests and ideology do still control the world. In its own way, individualism could see this becoming overturned: for sure, individualism is presently co-opted by power and capital, but we have to remember that individualism was once a dangerous and very strange idea. The Athenians didn't think of themselves as individuals and when Socrates went around telling the youth to think for themselves, they killed him for it.

We're moving towards knowledge and its goal is freedom. I won't see it in my my lifetime, so while I'm here, I'm gonna get radical and start hurling a few bombs. It makes pretty fires and may speed things up a little.

 

[HL2037]

I curse the day americans began to interfere with cycling. They have perverted a beautiful thing.

That's just bigoted nonsense.

It's not as if I said that the americans tested positive for being *******s or anything.

This case says a lot about how things work in the USA. Under the glossy surface that nation is no more civilized than Afghanistan.

 

[rhubroma]

Yeah, I can see that: Lance did draw on a wellspring of goodwill and apparent good works, so his profile did help in this regard. Recent articles, including the one just posted on CN with Selena Roberts, indicate the messiness of dealing with a popular hero.

And yes, special interests and ideology do still control the world. In its own way, individualism could see this becoming overturned: for sure, individualism is presently co-opted by power and capital, but we have to remember that individualism was once a dangerous and very strange idea. The Athenians didn't think of themselves as individuals and when Socrates went around telling the youth to think for themselves, they killed him for it.

We're moving towards knowledge and its goal is freedom. I won't see it in my my lifetime, so while I'm here, I'm gonna get radical and start hurling a few bombs. It makes pretty fires and may speed things up a little.

"Truth" resides therefore in the spicific instance, in the particolare, in the clash of egoisms as these work themselves out in greater events.

Floyd, Tyler, Betsy found themselves up against bigger egos end greater events, the best that money could buy, that overwhelmed. It should not be that way, but when has it not?

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

It's not as if I said that the americans tested positive for being a.s.s.holes or anything.

This case says a lot about how things work in the USA. Under the glossy surface that nation is no more civilized than Afghanistan.

I am on your side here. And it´s not only happened to cycling. This whole sharholder value/co operate capitalism BS swashed over to europe and is basically destroying our hard fought for social societies, like it did destroy south america in the 60/70s. But Rome was also swept away. So there is hope. Unluckily we´ll not see it happen in our lifetime...

Edit: And you´ll see once McQuaid is gone and Vaughters has built his franchise cycling BS (constructed like NFL/NBA) how good cycling still was in 2012. It´s the time when you have to pay entrance to watch the riders on mountain stages, when TV dictates schedules, when the smaller races are made kaputt, when the TdF can only be seen by some rich grumpy old white men in pay per view. It´s all coming. Thank you USA.

 

[andy1234]

It's not as if I said that the americans tested positive for being a.s.s.holes or anything.

This case says a lot about how things work in the USA. Under the glossy surface that nation is no more civilized than Afghanistan.

Americans didn't start the fire, they just fanned the flames into a raging inferno.
A character like Armstrong could come from just about any country in the world, but if he did he simply wouldnt polarise opinions in the way he does.

If the US are to be blamed for anything, its getting into a dirty sport, fully immersing themselves in that very culture, then complaining about it when it goes t*ts up.

 

[HL2037]

Americans didn't start the fire, they just fanned the flames into a raging inferno.

What fire, the disneyfication of a beautiful sport? There might have been doping in cycling before armstrong, but the americans have a way of turning everything into a tacky circus with no sense of real values. Making cycling into some parody of pro wrestling, thanks a lot!

A character like Armstrong could come from just about any country in the world, but if he did he simply wouldnt polarise opinions in the way he does.

In no other country would armstrong ever have gotten to the position to be able to polarize anything.

 

[thehog]

Americans didn't start the fire, they just fanned the flames into a raging inferno.
A character like Armstrong could come from just about any country in the world, but if he did he simply wouldnt polarise opinions in the way he does.

If the US are to be blamed for anything, its getting into a dirty sport, fully immersing themselves in that very culture, then complaining about it when it goes t*ts up.

Agreed. Has nothing to do with the US. Coca-Cola began sponsorship even before LeMond.

What took the sport from Europe was the Internet. It went from a sport whereby outside Europe you'd be reduced seeing photographs of the races weeks after it occurred in the cycling magazines and maybe a 30 second television report to having the race live. First it was text updates and pictures later that day to what you see today.

Armstrong was fortunate. His time of winning co-insidered with the boom in the Internet.

ASO are to be commended. They jumped on board the internet ship. They provisioned the journalists with the most up to date information in regards to the race. Whats held them back is the UCI in terms of bringing more technology to the race.

We shouldn't point the fingers as the US for the mis-carriage of justice. The Federal investigation had very little to do with cycling and lot more to do with fraud and good deeds paid in kind.

Also the sport is much bigger and better not because of America but because of the Internet.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

What fire, the disneyfication of a beautiful sport? There might have been doping in cycling before armstrong, but the americans have a way of turning everything into a tacky circus with no sense of real values. Making cycling into some parody of pro wrestling, thanks a lot!

1++

You are so right. Thank you for that. It needed to be said. Agree 100%.

 

[Cobblestoned]

If Armstrong loses the USADA case, Ferrari ends up in Prison, Brunyeel is exposed......did Armstrong really win? There are few rational people who still think he won clean. The flood of testimony from former teammates is only going to increase with the USADA case.

Yes, he dodged prison but at the cost of millions of $$$ in legal fees, a reputation in tatters, and the prospect of loosing one, or more, of his Tour victories. That is Charlie Sheen style "winning"

Prison, handcuffs, jetfuel, Lance broke as a joke, hookers and blow - which leads to the bet again.
Called you out on it already yesterday, but......
You really got nerves, Mr.RR. Still posting and spreading your myths.
As if nothing happened. At least you have your hookers and blow left, after handcuffs and jail, jetfuel, and just everything could be taken from the list.
Perhaps some selective memory or you just don't give a sheit about real men bets, like last time when you stole out of it like a p u s s y.

Somehow I did expect it, but you know what.....the disappointment about the way you handle this again, is much bigger than the delight of not seeing Lance in handcuffs.
Anyway, you will find another way to obfuscate out of the bet.
If you declare that the bet never happened that makes you a p u s s y anway, because you didn't virtually strike or agree like a man, even after there were tons of evidence.
Well, but who really needs strikes or handshakes from guys like you ?
They are worth nothing. And you don't give a sheit about anything, hiding in the internet carefree.

Nevertheless, men with pride even exist in the internet. I can tell you.
I hope the day will come when you have to pay your bills.