US prosecutors drop case against Armstrong/USPS

Page 49 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Jul 22, 2009
3,355
5
0
I'd bet all of the Americans testified truthfully. This would seem to be the case in that only popovich's was heavily leaked that he didnt testify truthfully, creating a buzz here and overseas.

The problem is Prosecution had to prove something quite different than just doping. The hope was that the government would go ahead with it in spite of that difficulty, just to illustrate Armstrong's use.
 
Mar 15, 2009
246
0
0
Race Radio said:
That depends. If the Fed's "Join' The case then they will pay and run the case. As far as I can tell it has not been reported if they have joined the case or not.

Travis Tygart and USADA have one little problem.

Grand Jury testimony records are sealed. The reports on NPR confirmed that.
Period.

Good luck with that.
 
Apr 20, 2009
960
0
0
Cloxxki said:
Sorry, my job doesn't allow me to keep pace with discussion here.

Is it possible that the key witnesses were not consistent? That while some (Tyler, Floyd) told all, some perjured themselves greatly? That is a mess for a prosecutor to deal with. Let's say 10 key witness from the sport. 5 say they personally saw Lance dope, got the stuff from him, and were more or less forced to join the team program. These 5 also implicate the other 5 for the exact same facts. Yet, when they testify, they deny all and just express they don't want to be victim of their former team mates' dirty game to drag clean better riders down along with them.
The prosecutor then has at least 5 witnesses which set themselves up for jail. Just, which ones?
I think this post speaks to two of the problems involving this investigation (or any, really) :

1) Just because some say a story of illegality is true doesn't mean it's true - especially if it's contradicted by others. Everything else being equal, those claiming illegal activity need to prove it, not vice-versa.

2) Seeing Lance or anyone else dope isn't illegal. Doping itself wasn't illegal. Saying you were "more or less forced" to join a program doesn't speak to illegal activity.

It was going to be a very difficult case to prove from the outset, and in my opinion the claims about a range of potential charges made it all the more difficult.
 
Mar 19, 2009
2,819
1
11,485
eleven said:
I think this post speaks to two of the problems involving this investigation (or any, really) :

1) Just because some say a story of illegality is true doesn't mean it's true - especially if it's contradicted by others. Everything else being equal, those claiming illegal activity need to prove it, not vice-versa.

2) Seeing Lance or anyone else dope isn't illegal. Doping itself wasn't illegal. Saying you were "more or less forced" to join a program doesn't speak to illegal activity.

It was going to be a very difficult case to prove from the outset, and in my opinion the claims about a range of potential charges made it all the more difficult.
But wasn't it also about the lies and the dishonest profits derived from it? It's violation of the USPS contract. Some witnesses even requested immunity for perjury most likely, knowing that it would be hard to remain consistent or believable.
 
Apr 20, 2009
960
0
0
Cloxxki said:
But wasn't it also about the lies and the dishonest profits derived from it? It's violation of the USPS contract. Some witnesses even requested immunity for perjury most likely, knowing that it would be hard to remain consistent or believable.

"The lies" only matter if they were made under oath in an issue material to the case. Otherwise, telling a lie is not illegal.

There's no evidence the USPS contract was violated, nor the Discovery Channel contract. Both contracts were completed to the satisfaction of both sides. As far as I've seen, neither party to those contracts can claim any material damages. For instance, USPS can't say "well, yeah - we liked the accepted the agreement at the time. But we can demonstrate that our sales would have been x% higher if not for the fact (unconfirmed) that members of the team doped.
 
Jul 4, 2009
9,666
0
0
BotanyBay said:
Nah. These days, a Cat4 would cut your throat if it meant a podium position in an industrial park crit. Meaning, they'd cut your throat for a 15 year old cyclocross tire.

....These days???...doesn't seem like you've been paying very much attention to what you're talking because that has always been the case in this sport...in fact that type of insanity has always been part of this sport's charm...

...so what's your next point?

Cheers

blutto
 
Jun 1, 2011
2,500
0
0
eleven said:
"The lies" only matter if they were made under oath in an issue material to the case. Otherwise, telling a lie is not illegal.

There's no evidence the USPS contract was violated, nor the Discovery Channel contract. Both contracts were completed to the satisfaction of both sides. As far as I've seen, neither party to those contracts can claim any material damages. For instance, USPS can't say "well, yeah - we liked the accepted the agreement at the time. But we can demonstrate that our sales would have been x% higher if not for the fact (unconfirmed) that members of the team doped.

Look at the current USPS TV ad campaign. Does it closely represent realty?
I guess the question is that we don't expected it to be, but there are truth in advertising laws. They are weakly enforce. Ads are at best, embellishments, but most often lies.

The USPS team members were contracted like actors. They are not actually USPS employees. This may seem far fetch, but I wonder if the defense pursued it as you argue: are lies a breach of contract if the contractor is deemed an advertiser?
 
Aug 31, 2011
329
0
0
This nonsense

KingsMountain said:
As I understand it, whistle-blower cases are sealed until the feds decide whether to join. Either way, the defendant is notified at that time if the feds join or if the private party decides to go ahead. If the feds decline to join and the suit continues, the feds can jump in later if they think it is going well.

I don't think there is any reason to believe that the case has gone forward. Clearly the feds are not pursuing it now, because to win at least some law has to have been broken, and at the moment, the feds have declared that they aren't bringing charges.

Based on what we know, there's a simple reason that the case isn't going forward: Tailwind didn't defraud the USPS, and even if illegal acts were carried out during the contract, the USPS lost nothing. Their sponsorship worked out to the highest possible benefit of the USPS--the exposure of their brand could not have been better. It's hard to see where damages would lie.

Here in the Clinic, we have a persistent incorrect notion that the contract stipulated no doping. In fact it only stipulated that Tailwind must ensure that the rider contracts permitted the dismissal of riders found to be doping. If a rider was found to be doping, the contract require that "appropriate" action be taken. Additionally, there are two ways related to doping in which Tailwind could be deemed in default. Neither of these happened; no rider was found to be doping (if one had, "immediate action", again of an unspecified nature, needed to be taken), nor did any negative publicity arise related to doping or other morals related events. Of course the contract had a term, and it ended December 31, 2004. By definition, no default took place because neither party alleged such.

So there is no possibility of a successful civil action. Of course, we don't know what criminal activities may have taken place, although in my opinion, nothing credible has been suggested. Selling team bicycles is not a crime. Money laundering of course is, but paying for a "program" probably wasn't done so directly.

There also been a lot of talk about whether Armstrong was a director, or if he lied about his ownership. I think most of this talk stems from posters who aren't aware of the differences between large publicly held companies and small privately held companies. In a small private corporation, the investors typically get preferred stock, and the management/talent are granted common stock or more commonly options for common stock. Only the preferred stock holders have voting rights, and the votes are apportioned according to the investment percentage. I certainly don't know, but a good guess is that Thom Weisel held >51% of Tailwind, or controlled a parent shell corporation that held >51%. In that case, for nearly all decisions, excepting modifications to the corporate charter, he would hold complete power. Again, I don't know about Tailwind, but I do know about private corporations. Contrary to public companies, a board seat need not confer any power or knowledge of the operations.

Armstrong would likely have not invested (much) money, but he could easily have had options with an "earn out" provision. That is, his share of ownership might change depending on the level of profit in a given year, or on the value of Tailwind at the time of a liquidity event. These provisions are common, and so the question "what percentage do you own" is not directly answerable. I was involved in one such arrangement in which the formula for earn out was sufficiently complicated that about 2 hours was needed to explain it.

On a separate topic, it is hard for me to justify any sense that the rug was pulled out from under Novitsky. Take the Balco case, which has some parallels. The grand jury was empanelled soon after the raid on Balco-- about October of 2003. The athletes completed their testimony by the end of the year, and indictments against the 3 Balco guys and Anderson came out in early February. Somewhere between 4 and 5 months. And they all spent some time in the pokey. Compare that to the indictment of Bonds on (as I recall) 27 counts of various crimes. That grand jury needed the full 24 months to get out the indictments. I think the very long time the GJ spent was a predictor of the outcome-- tried for 3 counts of perjury and 1 of obstruction of justice. In spite of the reality that everyone knows that Bonds lied about whether he injected himself and whether he knew he was taking steroids, the government had a very difficult time demonstrating perjury. The point is that if an indictment takes as long as the one involving Armstrong was taking, the case isn't very provable. And a case that isn't shaping up very well, coupled with the shambles of the Bonds and Clemens cases, leads to dropping the investigation. Novitsky and company shouldn't be complaining about the decision; if they had a good case they could have brought it already--before someone else made the decision to quit. On the other hand, it must be immensely frustrating to Novitsky to be quite sure that laws were broken, and broken by someone for whom he undoubtedly has a personal distaste.

is why people are outraged the prosecution was called off.

Regarding the bolded part, it was a legal contract regarding the team. It's presupposed that there is not going to be organized team wide doping. You write as if the issue is they were not caught.

The alice in wonderland aspect of your reasoning is breathtaking.......but pervasive. This is why juries are unable to convict people like bonds. They buy into this sophistry. I'm not going to do this......
 
Jun 1, 2011
2,500
0
0
LarryBudMelman said:
is why people are outraged the prosecution was called off.

Regarding the bolded part, it was a legal contract regarding the team. It's presupposed that there is not going to be organized team wide doping. You write as if the issue is they were not caught.

In fact it only stipulated that Tailwind must ensure that the rider contracts permitted the dismissal of riders found to be doping. If a rider was found to be doping, the contract require that "appropriate" action be taken.

The alice in wonderland aspect of your reasoning is breathtaking.......but pervasive. This is why juries are unable to convict people like bonds. They buy into this sophistry. I'm not going to do this......

No rider can be "dismissed" because the team has long since been terminated. "Appropriate" is really vague. I know you feel strongly about it, but I view it as just another spots doping case in which there is still the possibility of the loss of titles and perhaps fines. I think the criminal charges will never again emerge.
 
Aug 13, 2009
12,854
2
0
davestoller said:
Travis Tygart and USADA have one little problem.

Grand Jury testimony records are sealed. The reports on NPR confirmed that.
Period.

Good luck with that.

Good luck with that

most of the riders who described the organized doping in the team and directly witnessed Lance's doping gave their testimony outside the Grand Jury....and these testimony's can been shared with USADA and the Qui Tam case
 
Jul 4, 2009
9,666
0
0
...apologize in advance if this has already been brought up but the quick scan of this thread that I just made seems it hasn't. so here goes...

...the story so far is that Lance, thru his political connections, pulled some strings that had the investigation shut down...and now that the investigation is history he is free to pursue political office ( again drawing on the political connections that helped him in shutting down the investigation )...several people in this thread have in fact tried to make a link between the political affiliations of major players in the cancer cure industry and how those affiliations have helped Lance recently and will in the future ( and I stand accused of doing same )...the other part of the story paints Lance as a slick behind the scenes operator who is always looking out for his best interests now and in the future..

...one of the smoking guns that we have used to buttress this argument was a donation he recently made to a group working in the cancer field... the idea being that this donation was a pay-off to the folks who are behind the Lance thing both now and in the future....

..the problem with this line of reasoning is that that donation was made to a group, that while involved in the cancer industry, also stands against a great deal of what the supposed powers that be stand for...Lance gave the money to the Planned Parenthood group, which is if you have been following the Komen scandal are a group that was railroaded by one of the big guns in the cancer industry ( and is connected to the big, no, make that huge, players in Texas GOP circles)...this railroading left PP short of cash, (...and this was one of the groups within the cancer industry that was actually doing good work...but it was on the wrong side of the political fence ) and Lance stepped in with a very timely donation and allowed them to continue their work...

...so the question is...why would Lance ( the consummate political operator and supposedly with his eye on a political career ) do something like that...he might as well have donated the money to Occupy Wall Street for the good it will do him in fostering the political connections he would need to attain political office (... and what many in this thread believe is an inevitable evolution of the Lance saga....)

..so, is Lance playing a long game with that donation that is subtle beyond the understanding of mere mortals?...or is there something more in play with the Lance myth that has been built up here than will be readily accepted by those who have worked mightily to build up that myth...

...now before the sanctimonious haters start slinging mud please note that I am not a Lance fan...but I also am not a fan of lynchings, and especially lynchings based on hearsay evidence and hubritic myth making...

Cheers

blutto
 
Aug 31, 2011
329
0
0
BillytheKid said:
No rider can be "dismissed" because the team has long since been terminated. "Appropriate" is really vague. I know you feel strongly about it, but I view it as just another spots doping case in which there is still the possibility of the loss of titles and perhaps fines. I think the criminal charges will never again emerge.

We have a massive societal fraud committed by a criminal enterprise and the technocrats argue silly little tangential bank shots.

Of course that's entirely with the rights of the defense to argue this garbage, but you'd think people would intelligent enough not to be lead down the path to this intellectual Siberia.

Wow, the irony of that is the intellectuals were sent to Siberia by the morons missing the forest for the trees.
 
Aug 31, 2011
329
0
0
blutto said:
...apologize in advance if this has already been brought up but the quick scan of this thread that I just made seems it hasn't. so here goes...

...the story so far is that Lance, thru his political connections, pulled some strings that had the investigation shut down...and now that the investigation is history he is free to pursue political office ( again drawing on the political connections that helped him in shutting down the investigation )...several people in this thread have in fact tried to make a link between the political affiliations of major players in the cancer cure industry and how those affiliations have helped Lance recently and will in the future ( and I stand accused of doing same )...the other part of the story paints Lance as a slick behind the scenes operator who is always looking out for his best interests now and in the future..

...one of the smoking guns that we have used to buttress this argument was a donation he recently made to a group working in the cancer field... the idea being that this donation was a pay-off to the folks who are behind the Lance thing both now and in the future....

..the problem with this line of reasoning is that that donation was made to a group, that while involved in the cancer industry, also stands against a great deal of what the supposed powers that be stand for...Lance gave the money to the Planned Parenthood group, which is if you have been following the Komen scandal are a group that was railroaded by one of the big guns in the cancer industry ( and is connected to the big, no, make that huge, players in Texas GOP circles)...this railroading left PP short of cash, (...and this was one of the groups within the cancer industry that was actually doing good work...but it was on the wrong side of the political fence ) and Lance stepped in with a very timely donation and allowed them to continue their work...

...so the question is...why would Lance ( the consummate political operator and supposedly with his eye on a political career ) do something like that...he might as well have donated the money to Occupy Wall Street for the good it will do him in fostering the political connections he would need to attain political office (... and what many in this thread believe is an inevitable evolution of the Lance saga....)

..so, is Lance playing a long game with that donation that is subtle beyond the understanding of mere mortals?...or is there something more in play with the Lance myth that has been built up here than will be readily accepted by those who have worked mightily to build up that myth...

...now before the sanctimonious haters start slinging mud please note that I am not a Lance fan...but I also am not a fan of lynchings, and especially lynchings based on hearsay evidence and hubritic myth making...

Cheers

blutto

I think that was a good post. One thing you're missing is that in spite of being a massive jerk, Armstrong is politically moderate, in addition to being a bad ***.

Does anyone honestly think if Armtrong's adversary in U.S. Attorney's office had a similiar mentality to his, the case would have been closed?

These political people have huge respect for Armstrong. They aspire to talk out of both sides of their mouths while at the same time being vicious, vindictive a$sholes like he is.
 
Aug 13, 2009
12,854
2
0
blutto said:
...apologize in advance if this has already been brought up but the quick scan of this thread that I just made seems it hasn't. so here goes...

...the story so far is that Lance, thru his political connections, pulled some strings that had the investigation shut down...and now that the investigation is history he is free to pursue political office ( again drawing on the political connections that helped him in shutting down the investigation )...several people in this thread have in fact tried to make a link between the political affiliations of major players in the cancer cure industry and how those affiliations have helped Lance recently and will in the future ( and I stand accused of doing same )...the other part of the story paints Lance as a slick behind the scenes operator who is always looking out for his best interests now and in the future..

...one of the smoking guns that we have used to buttress this argument was a donation he recently made to a group working in the cancer field... the idea being that this donation was a pay-off to the folks who are behind the Lance thing both now and in the future....

..the problem with this line of reasoning is that that donation was made to a group, that while involved in the cancer industry, also stands against a great deal of what the supposed powers that be stand for...Lance gave the money to the Planned Parenthood group, which is if you have been following the Komen scandal are a group that was railroaded by one of the big guns in the cancer industry ( and is connected to the big, no, make that huge, players in Texas GOP circles)...this railroading left PP short of cash, (...and this was one of the groups within the cancer industry that was actually doing good work...but it was on the wrong side of the political fence ) and Lance stepped in with a very timely donation and allowed them to continue their work...

...so the question is...why would Lance ( the consummate political operator and supposedly with his eye on a political career ) do something like that...he might as well have donated the money to Occupy Wall Street for the good it will do him in fostering the political connections he would need to attain political office (... and what many in this thread believe is an inevitable evolution of the Lance saga....)

..so, is Lance playing a long game with that donation that is subtle beyond the understanding of mere mortals?...or is there something more in play with the Lance myth that has been built up here than will be readily accepted by those who have worked mightily to build up that myth...

...now before the sanctimonious haters start slinging mud please note that I am not a Lance fan...but I also am not a fan of lynchings, and especially lynchings based on hearsay evidence and hubritic myth making...

Cheers

blutto

I don't think the donation had anything to do with the case being dropped

There is no way Lance is running for public office anytime in the future

All involved, Lehaune, Birotte, Breuer and the Senators are Democrats
 
Aug 10, 2010
6,285
2
17,485
Cloxxki said:
But wasn't it also about the lies and the dishonest profits derived from it? It's violation of the USPS contract. Some witnesses even requested immunity for perjury most likely, knowing that it would be hard to remain consistent or believable.

Violation of a contract, by itself, isn't a crime. The acts that constitute the breach might independently support a criminal charge, or lying to get the other party to sign the contract (fraud) might also.
 
Aug 13, 2009
12,854
2
0
eleven said:
"The lies" only matter if they were made under oath in an issue material to the case. Otherwise, telling a lie is not illegal.

There's no evidence the USPS contract was violated, nor the Discovery Channel contract. Both contracts were completed to the satisfaction of both sides. As far as I've seen, neither party to those contracts can claim any material damages. For instance, USPS can't say "well, yeah - we liked the accepted the agreement at the time. But we can demonstrate that our sales would have been x% higher if not for the fact (unconfirmed) that members of the team doped.

Wrong, there is clear evidence USPS was defrauded

The agreement clearly spells out what team management is supposed to do if a rider is doping. Not only did they not do that team management actively promoted, financed, and enabled doping.

USPS is satisfied? really? For decades there will be media stories on organized doping and fraud on the USPS cycling team, how is this good for the USPS brand?
 
Apr 20, 2009
960
0
0
LarryBudMelman said:
We have a massive societal fraud committed by a criminal enterprise

no, we have claims by you and others of such fraud. That doesn't mean such fraud exists.
 
Aug 31, 2011
329
0
0
Race Radio said:
I don't think the donation had anything to do with the case being dropped

There is no way Lance is running for public office anytime in the future

All involved, Lehaune, Birotte, Breuer and the Senators are Democrats

You'd necessarily assume Armstrong is a Republican? In the old days he'd be a moderate Republican but everything has moved so far to the right.

He's an atheist, he screws anything that moves, he was against the Iraq war, and I believe he's for even more HCR. I don't think he fits into an uptight, evangelical type situation. The Democrats still embrace Clinton, a proven scumbag. Even though the Republicans are nuts, they have the ridiculous facade of being moral arbiters which they wear like a badge.
 
Jun 1, 2011
2,500
0
0
LarryBudMelman said:
We have a massive societal fraud committed by a criminal enterprise and the technocrats argue silly little tangential bank shots.

Of course that's entirely with the rights of the defense to argue this garbage, but you'd think people would intelligent enough not to be lead down the path to this intellectual Siberia.

Wow, the irony of that is the intellectuals were sent to Siberia by the morons missing the forest for the trees.

Armstrong is a small fry. His case, is a diversionary attack, but pay no attention to the real man behind the curtain.

Armstrong reminds me Charles Lindbergh. Somebody got the story going that he was a Nazi sympathizer because he was invited to visit Germany by Hitler. He went but was working for Roosevelt and reported back to him that we should not fight because the Germans at the time they had a vast superiority in arms. Lindbergh felt the way most Americans did at the time (1938 or early 1939), but was later accused of being anti-american during the war. The myth prevails to this day. Roosevelt rewarded him by not letting him fly in combat after Pearl Harbor. Lindbergh, like Armstrong, had a great popular following. I think Roosevelt deemed him a threat politically. He nor his political party ever came to his defense. A nephew of mine once told me Lindbergh was a Nazi which he learned in high school U.S History.

Armstrong, unlike Lindbergh, has some real s*** on him of course. The objective in my mind has be reached. He, like Lindbergh, will never rise from the ashes.
 
Aug 13, 2009
12,854
2
0
MarkvW said:
Violation of a contract, by itself, isn't a crime. The acts that constitute the breach might independently support a criminal charge, or lying to get the other party to sign the contract (fraud) might also.

Agreed. Team management gave multiple assurances, both verbal and in writing, that the team and it's riders were clean......at the same time they had an organized doping program on the team
 
Jul 4, 2009
9,666
0
0
Race Radio said:
I don't think the donation had anything to do with the case being dropped

There is no way Lance is running for public office anytime in the future

All involved, Lehaune, Birotte, Breuer and the Senators are Democrats

...I guess I didn't have the whole story...as in the political affliations you mentioned...the name that had been brought up, along with Birotte. was Boxer who while a Dem in name has never struck me as a Dem in spirit...and of course there is the cancer industry connection which is rife with GOP operatives...

...that being said the piece I put together was aimed at some of the myth making that is part and parcel of the anti-Lance camp...or put another way, the anti-Lance narrative has become so broad that the unsubstantiated parts of it are under-cutting the parts that are valid...leaving the casual observer with the very real option of dismissing it all...which would be a shame...

Cheers

blutto
 

thehog

BANNED
Jul 27, 2009
31,285
2
22,485
LarryBudMelman said:
Because it goes against the "business interests."

Nothing will be sold by nailing Armstrong.

Delusional "positive" people don't like feel bad stories.

Armstrong is one of the most cynical motherfcukers who's ever lived.

Election year and Obama didn't want to nail down the fact that there is no Santa Claus to a country that's already teetering and Armstrong has made himself into an "establishment" figure even though most here know it's bs.

The whole episode forces people to look in the mirror and most people just don't want to take a good hard honest look. I think some of the European posters captured that better than the Americans here could.

JV has a lot to answer for here I believe. The guy could have spoken forcefully about what he knew and what a cancer armstrong is, but he made a calculation and hedged. Now he will always be LA's b!tch when he could have mounted a frontal assault... His reward is to have his team in the cesspool that is pro cycling. Congrats!

I would also argue now that I’ve had the time to reflect on the case that it’s not really in the public’s interest to pursue the charges. Not fair I agree but I don’t think much would have been achieved. A very lengthy court case, yes. Lots of lawyers, yes. 10,000 adjournments and time delays, yes. It would drag on for months if not years. I feel for all those involved but it’s such a murky case and reality the sums of money we’re talking about are small fry. Mortgage backed security fraudsters where swindling money into the 100’s of millions. In the scheme of things Armstrong is not that big. He’s well known as a cyclist but he’s not Barry Bonds and he’s not Justin Bierber! He’s big in our world because we like cycling but to the rest of planet most haven’t heard of him in months or even care. Heck you’d struggle for people to know he was even being investigated.

I still maintain he is damaged. It will be hard for him to be the same guy again. He can’t really do interviews like he used to and he can’t talk about his cycling career. I think his strategy will be to slowly come back in a few months time as the “cancer advocate” and not as former cyclist or Tour de France champion. He always runs the gauntlet that Floyd and co. having evidence they can leak. Floyd was most dangerous to him when Armstrong was still riding. Not anymore. Armstrong is now the cancer man and the head of Livestrong. If he continues to invest in internet start-ups etc. then he’s brand will change away from cycling into entrepreneur and spokesperson for the cancer community.

Those who think there’s more to come there’s not. Hot air, yes. But charges or stripping of titles, no. I’ve spoken to a few people and all say the case has run its course. No one has the energy to pursue it any further. People just want to move on and that includes a lot of those involved in SCA. They wrote off their loses years ago – no point in spending the million to maybe recover 2m.
 
Jun 1, 2011
2,500
0
0
The long story short....there's some political motivation behind the big hit.

There's crap behind everyone's door.
 
Aug 10, 2010
6,285
2
17,485
Race Radio said:
Wrong, there is clear evidence USPS was defrauded

The agreement clearly spells out what team management is supposed to do if a rider is doping. Not only did they not do that team management actively promoted, financed, and enabled doping.

USPS is satisfied? really? For decades there will be media stories on organized doping and fraud on the USPS cycling team, how is this good for the USPS brand?

Here in the Clinic, we don't know who made the statements that induced USPS to sign the contract. Those statements, and the knowledge that accompany them are vital to the proof of fraud. You say "clear evidence" of fraud on USPS exists, but you have always only spoken in vague generalities.

When pressed upon it earlier, the only fact you could cite in support of the fact that Lance would be charged was the existence of the GJ Investigation. Now that fact has evaporated. Support for your "clear evidence" statement has evaporated with it. You can't demonstrate "clear evidence" of fraud on USPS. Nobody can. If someone with your knowledge of the case had to draft a bill of indictment now, the end product would be laughable. So why keep on with the "clear evidence" arguments?
 
Aug 10, 2010
6,285
2
17,485
Race Radio said:
Agreed. Team management gave multiple assurances, both verbal and in writing, that the team and it's riders were clean......at the same time they had an organized doping program on the team

Saying it isn't proving it.

Dates . . .times . . .places . . .who said what . . .to whom . . .when . . .with what authority . . .what did the person making the statement know . . .? You cannot provide those details---vital to an indictment--yet you insist that the proof is there.

Sorry, but those picky little details are the proof and you don't have them. How can you say that the feds do?