US prosecutors drop case against Armstrong/USPS

[9000ft]

One of the themes here seems to be LA got of because he has lots of money. I'm wondering about that because since nothing had gone to trial,and no evidence was presented in court to defend against, what did LA spend money on? Maybe I'm getting something wrong here but it seems it's the US government that spent all the money.

 

[thehog]

Bingo : http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/armstrong-welcomes-end-of-federal-investigation

Mellowest LA so far :


Best summary so far : "“Our legal system failed us," Andreu said, according to ESPN. "This is what happens when you have a lot of money.""

This was never just regular locker room doping. It was big. Be that as it may I think deep down Armstrong knows he dodged a major bullet. Its not a time to crow and shout that he's been vindicated. He won't want to p!ss off anyone in government for letting this one slide. I think he's happy for it to go away.

Feel for Floyd. He's entire confession was derailed by the investigation. He never got to say what he wanted to say because of Federal restrictions. Even if he tells the whole story now I don't think anyone will care.

Many have now been immunised to doping talk. 3 years ago it was utter shock that Armstrong may have doped. Now most have heard so much about blood bags, HemAssist and all sorts of doping methods that its part of normal human vernacular. Its not such a big deal as it used to be.

My only hope is Armstrong doesn't terrorise those who testified or chose to speak out. He may. If he does then I think it will only underline the sort of person he really is.

 

[ChrisE]

One of the themes here seems to be LA got of because he has lots of money. I'm wondering about that because since nothing had gone to trial,and no evidence was presented in court to defend against, what did LA spend money on? Maybe I'm getting something wrong here but it seems it's the US government that spent all the money.

Shhhh. They have to make up something to rant about, instead of just admitting he couldn't get convicted by a US jury.

 

[ChrisE]

Feel for Floyd. He's entire confession was derailed by the investigation. He never got to say what he wanted to say because of Federal restrictions. Even if he tells the whole story now I don't think anyone will care.
.

He should be glad it didn't go to trial. He would have been totally destroyed in cross-examination. Same thing with the other late blooming conscious brother TH.

 

[peterst6906]

All I am saying is don't criticize the US justice system, unless you pay taxes here.

What's the link between paying taxes in a system and being able to have an opinion on it?

I mean that as a legitimate question, as I can't see that one necessarily permits the other.

By that level of thinking, there are many, many opinions that no-one should have, or am I missing something.

Regards,

Peter

PS. It's an off topic question, but also important to understanding when it is legitimate for people to post their own views

 

[scribe]

One of the themes here seems to be LA got of because he has lots of money. I'm wondering about that because since nothing had gone to trial,and no evidence was presented in court to defend against, what did LA spend money on? Maybe I'm getting something wrong here but it seems it's the US government that spent all the money.

Armstrong's lawyers easily accumulated thousands of hours keeping up with the case. The PR campaign was also extensive.

It was VERY costly to LIVESTRONG.com

 

[Benotti69]

Not many of Armstrong's fans are cycling fans. He dopes and cheats to win and you applaud and praise that. Proud of yourselves!

I look forward to Armstrong welcoming a thorough investigation by USADA to exonerate him from all these allegations and he will do his utmost to assist them in every way possible to clear his name as a cheat and a doper.

No doubt he is organising his legal team to fight USADA.

 

[Señor_Contador]

Shooot, I would not want to be in Landis' and Hamilton's shoes right now...

 

[Race Radio]

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_...strong-federal-investigation-raises-questions

Bonnie Ford has a good overview

However, as the U.S. Attorney for the Central District of California, where the grand jury was empaneled, Birotte had the authority to close the investigation unilaterally, without asking the grand jury whether indictments were warranted, if he concluded that there was insufficient evidence that a federal crime had been committed in his jurisdiction.

This jibes with what NPR reported, the GJ was closed before they could render a verdict.

Lobbying works

 

[JRTinMA]

Not many of Armstrong's fans are cycling fans. He dopes and cheats to win and you applaud and praise that. Proud of yourselves!

I look forward to Armstrong welcoming a thorough investigation by USADA to exonerate him from all these allegations and he will do his utmost to assist them in every way possible to clear his name as a cheat and a doper.

No doubt he is organising his legal team to fight USADA.

I don't see anybody applauding dopers and cheaters but this must be the new clinic talking points. Some of us are applauding the fact we were right and LA would never get convicted. He, like most of the clinic, remains a fraud.

 

[The Plediadian]

What's the link between paying taxes in a system and being able to have an opinion on it?

I mean that as a legitimate question, as I can't see that one necessarily permits the other.

By that level of thinking, there are many, many opinions that no-one should have, or am I missing something.

Regards,

Peter

PS. It's an off topic question, but also important to understanding when it is legitimate for people to post their own views

Sorry,
Foxy said basically if Armstrong were in Germany he would have been guilty already, convicted and be made to pay the price.

The guy Armstrong could be guilty or innocent, but the investigators made their decision, case shut.

 

[9000ft]

Armstrong's lawyers easily accumulated thousands of hours keeping up with the case. The PR campaign was also extensive.

It was VERY costly to LIVESTRONG.com

That may or may not be true but you know this as a fact?

This is why the bubble burst so hard on the clinic faithful. One person says something. another picks it up and pumps it up. Pretty soon the frenzy turn it into an ironclad mountain of evidence when all it ever was was some posters speculation that fit what he wanted to believe.

 

[Benotti69]

Sorry,
Foxy said basically if Armstrong were in Germany he would have been guilty already, convicted and be made to pay the price.

The guy Armstrong could be guilty or innocent, but the investigators made their decision, case shut.

Correction;

The U.S. Attorney, A Birotte, for the Central District of California made the decision not the investigators.

 

[patricknd]

I don't see anybody applauding dopers and cheaters but this must be the new clinic talking points. Some of us are applauding the fact we were right and LA would never get convicted. He, like most of the clinic, remains a fraud.

how does it feel to go from fanboy to hater in one day? can'tyou be nicer?

 

[stephens]

Is there any chance the USADA and the US prosecutor arranged for a subtle transfer of the case, figuring that a doping conviction would be infinitely easier to obtain and more penalising for Armstrong than anything the US justice system could hope for. Thus the joint statements.

Well, technically, the feds are not allowed to release grand jury investigation materials to the public. And the USADA is not part of the government and so releasing material to them should be no more legitimate than handing it over to the press.

 

[Benotti69]

I don't see anybody applauding dopers and cheaters but this must be the new clinic talking points. Some of us are applauding the fact we were right and LA would never get convicted. He, like most of the clinic, remains a fraud.

No. You are applauding the fact that Armstrong will not be indicted by the a GJ. A doper and cheater.

 

[peterst6906]

Sorry,
Foxy said basically if Armstrong were in Germany he would have been guilty already, convicted and be made to pay the price.

The guy Armstrong could be guilty or innocent, but the investigators made their decision, case shut.

Ok, thanks. The thread is moving quickly with a few different lines going at the same time. Totally see your point.

I don't see the german, usa, australian (where I am from), dutch (where I live) or any other system being superior to another. They are all different and valid for their own jurisdiction.

I don't really think it is possible to draw a conclusion that the outcome would already be finalised with sanctions in Germany, as no charges have been lodged against LA there. It seems no different to anywhere else at this point in time.

Regards,

Peter

 

[JRTinMA]

how does it feel to go from fanboy to hater in one day? can'tyou be nicer?

lol I could have gloated much more but I gave up trolling for new years. I was tempted to break my resolution but I took the high road.

 

[Race Radio]

You still don't get it do you? The only mountain of evidence that existed was here in the clinic. Yesterday you witnessed the value of clinic evidence. Think of all of this like the story of Johan flushing my hero Landis' blood down the toilet. Turns out it never happened. Can we just turn out the lights in the clinic now, it's a bigger fail than Novitzky.

If there is no evidence what will USADA base their case on?

 

[JRTinMA]

No. You are applauding the fact that Armstrong will not be indicted by the a GJ. A doper and cheater.

No, I'm applauding being right about this case never seeing the light of day. I did it all based on knowledge and reason. I didn't have access to insider info or friends of friends from the justice system.

 

[Race Radio]

One of the themes here seems to be LA got of because he has lots of money. I'm wondering about that because since nothing had gone to trial,and no evidence was presented in court to defend against, what did LA spend money on? Maybe I'm getting something wrong here but it seems it's the US government that spent all the money.

He had enough cash to hire the right lobbyists and lawyers. Armstrong hired Chris Lehane, Clinton's former spokesperson, to lobby Lanny Breuer, Clinton's former Lawyer. They worked side by side for 4 years.

Now Lanny is head of the Criminal division of the justice department. Does every target get that kind of access?

The Feds told several European agencies that they were close to wrapping up their case and filing charges. They gave similar assurances to multiple witnesses.....yet the head guy shuts down the Grand Jury without even letting them render a verdict?

 

[JRTinMA]

If there is no evidence what will USADA base their case on?

I respect your fight Race but ask yourself, who cares what USADA does now? If you think bigger than the clinic I think you will find the answer is nobody.

 

[eleven]

He had enough cash to hire the right lobbyists and lawyers. Armstrong hired Chris Lehane, Clinton's former spokesperson, to lobby Lanny Breuer, Clinton's former Lawyer. They worked side by side for 4 years.

Now Lanny is head of the Criminal division of the justice department. Does every target get that kind of access?

The Feds told several European agencies that they were close to wrapping up their case and filing charges. They gave similar assurances to multiple witnesses.....yet the head guy shuts down the Grand Jury without even letting them render a verdict?

Once again, it couldn't just be that...you know...There was not enough evidence to get an indictment? No, that couldn't be it because that would require you to admit how wrong you were.

All the people you said were going to jail? They're drinking tequila instead.

 

[MarkvW]

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_...strong-federal-investigation-raises-questions

Bonnie Ford has a good overview



This jibes with what NPR reported, the GJ was closed before they could render a verdict.

Lobbying works

A prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich. A prosecutor can't convict a ham sandwich, though.

 

[eleven]

If there is no evidence what will USADA base their case on?

First of all, we have no idea IF USADA has a case.

Second, any USADA investigation would not involve questions of federal law, which is the only thing the FDA etc can investigate. Apples and oranges.