US prosecutors drop case against Armstrong/USPS

[Velodude]

RR I'm with you I really am BUT I never thought this case would get pulled. And it did. I have no reason and no faith to believe that USADA will do much. I know the angle of their investigation will be different but NO ONE and I mean NO ONE is going to talk to USADA now. If anything people are more intimidated of Armstrong than ever before. If Lance can take on the government and win then USADA aren't going to do Jack.

Not going to happen.

What you have not taken into consideration that in the years 2002-2004 over 50% of the riders on the US Postal roster, that totaled in those years from 20-25, were non US and now beyond the reach of Armstrong's influence and bullying tentacles.

There were a number who were dismissed unceremoniously by Armstrong who also withheld payments.

Only takes two for corroboration of eye witness evidence. How many can Armstrong dredge up to run the risk of perjury to refute that evidence?

 

[danjo007]

bout time. he's innocent!

 

[thehog]

What you have not taken into consideration that in the years 2002-2004 over 50% of the riders on the US Postal roster, that totaled in those years from 20-25, were non US and now beyond the reach of Armstrong's influence and bullying tentacles.

There were a number who were dismissed unceremoniously by Armstrong who also withheld payments.

Only takes two for corroboration of eye witness evidence. How many can Armstrong dredge up to run the risk of perjury to refute that evidence?

I'm on your side but seriously? Do you think the euro riders care? Il Falco spilling the beans? Heras? Cedric? What? they're going to fly these guys to the US to testify?

They may be beyond Armstrong's reach but they want to work in cycling or they want a life of peace.

Armstrong just needs to ride this one out. Give him 6 months & he'll be back. Expect him to start showing his face at Tour time.

 

[Berzin]

What possible incentive do any ex-Postal riders now have to come forward?

By the time the USADA comes out with threats of sanctions, they will be out of the sport as riders.

I agree with The Hog. This one is DOA, and (us) the haters have lost.

 

[HL2037]

Americans like Armstrong because he is a compatriot who was the best in a very very difficult sport. they also love the story of the cancer comeback, of someone showing guts, fighting through challenges and the fact that they think he has done a lot for charity.

To make remarks about an entire people"admiring" negative characteristics such as tyrany is very offensive.

If you read my comment before you quoted it you would have noticed that it said "a majority". I know that not all americans are like that. But I stand by what I wrote - it is what I see before my eyes. And after the case against Armstrong was dropped I don't really care much about offending USA or about pro cycling. CN moderators can censor me or throw me off their board, it's all a joke now any way.

It might be offensive to you, but a lot of americans are in fact worshipping Armstrong. And it's not only because the feel good lies he sells. They like that he not only won but crushed, destroyed, annihilated and humiliated the competitors. Apparently that is the american way. It is not enough to be part of cycling, no, they have to dominate it, buy it, own it. And they were able to do it, no one can take that away from them. But it didn't make them popular. And it ruined the sport.

 

[MarkvW]

If you read my comment before you quoted it you would have noticed that it said "a majority". I know that not all americans are like that. But I stand by what I wrote - it is what I see before my eyes. And after the case against Armstrong was dropped I don't really care much about offending USA or about pro cycling. CN moderators can censor me or throw me off their board, it's all a joke now any way.

It might be offensive to you, but a lot of americans are in fact worshipping Armstrong. And it's not only because the feel good lies he sells. They like that he not only won but crushed, destroyed, annihilated and humiliated the competitors. Apparently that is the american way. It is not enough to be part of cycling, no, they have to dominate it, buy it, own it. And they were able to do it, no one can take that away from them. But it didn't make them popular. And it ruined the sport.

Gosh! Armstrong ruined cycling . . .. by dominating one race. Cycling has long had a filthy history of doping . . . and Armstrong ruined it. The Festina tradition . . . Armstrong ruined it. Conconi and Ferrari . . . ruined by Armstrong.

What? Armstrong ruined cycling by not putting the toilet seat down when he was done?

 

[Velodude]

I'm on your side but seriously? Do you think the euro riders care? Il Falco spilling the beans? Heras? Cedric? What? they're going to fly these guys to the US to testify?

They may be beyond Armstrong's reach but they want to work in cycling or they want a life of peace.

Armstrong just needs to ride this one out. Give him 6 months & he'll be back. Expect him to start showing his face at Tour time.

Checking the US Postal roster 2002-2004 there are 21 non US riders with quite a turnover.

In response to Berzin's post about why would a US Postal rider come forward.

Ex Motorola team mate Stephen Swart came forward nearly 10 years later to journalists Walsh & Ballester and spilled the beans on Armstrong's encouragement of doping in 1995. He had left cycling.

From my experience in investigations the mother lode of information does not come from beavering away developing your own leads but from the unexpected voluntary offer out of the blue from a person who has suffered from the animus of a person in the LA mold.

 

[mewmewmew13]

Maybe the abrupt end of this investigation is all someone-- with a crank to turn about mistreatment at the hands of Armstrong-- needs to come forward.

Some folks simmer a long time before they get mad as h e l l and decide they're not going to take it anymore.

you never know

 

[ChrisE]

If you read my comment before you quoted it you would have noticed that it said "a majority". I know that not all americans are like that. But I stand by what I wrote - it is what I see before my eyes. And after the case against Armstrong was dropped I don't really care much about offending USA or about pro cycling. CN moderators can censor me or throw me off their board, it's all a joke now any way.

It might be offensive to you, but a lot of americans are in fact worshipping Armstrong. And it's not only because the feel good lies he sells. They like that he not only won but crushed, destroyed, annihilated and humiliated the competitors. Apparently that is the american way. It is not enough to be part of cycling, no, they have to dominate it, buy it, own it. And they were able to do it, no one can take that away from them. But it didn't make them popular. And it ruined the sport.

Man, you really need to take a deep breath and relax. It's gonna be ok.

 

[Cal_Joe]

The article you link is a comment made on Saturday.

The comment proved to be premature when the faeces later hit the fan after it was leaked it was a personal unsubstantiated decision of political origin and unrelated to the sufficiency and quality of the evidence obtained to gain a conviction.

It would be interesting if leaks occurred that this decision was made months ago but held back for political motivations. Then there would be genuine justification of misuse of taxpayers' funds.

Then this…

Yes, the article is from yesterday.

What "leak" "hit the fan" in the last 12 hours that proved it to be a "personal unsubstantiated decision"?

And this…

Regarding the bolded part (personal unsubstantiated decision of political origin ) - I missed that article. Could you provide a link? Thanks.

The only response -

Polish, I can't understand your question. It is not in your usual comedy mode gibberish

The posters of your ilk deserted this forum in droves when they became aware through journos with access to leaks this was not a prosecutor's deficiency of evidence decision but a political decision.

And, furthermore, that the prosecutors and investigators were blindsided 30 minutes before media release of a political decision when the investigation had further witnesses to be interviewed.

Posters of your ilk were euphoric because they wrongly read into A-G's pulling of the case that Armstrong was vindicated through lack of evidence.

Well, inquiring minds still want to know if there are any links to leaks regarding a personal unsubstantiated decision of political origin - or is your comment destined to become another Clinic myth?

If your supposition is only an opinion, fine. If not, can you provide the link(s)?

Thank you.

 

[stephens]

I'm a few pages behind but in case it hasn't been pointed out already, it's a stretch to see anything nefarious about a livestrong donation to planned parenthood last week.


Those of you outside the USA may not be aware of this, but last week, many famous people and organizations made donations to planned parenthood because the cancer charity Susan G Komen For the Cure announced they would no longer support Planned Parenthood's breast cancer screening (previously they donated $3mil), supposedly because the religious wackos in the usa pressured them to stop. It is totally expected that Livestrong, being a cancer organization as well would be one of the groups that stepped up to fill the gap left by Komen.

It seems Komen has now reversed their decision after getting slammed by, well, by just about everyone except the religious wackos.

 

[Escarabajo]

RR I'm with you I really am BUT I never thought this case would get pulled. And it did. I have no reason and no faith to believe that USADA will do much. I know the angle of their investigation will be different but NO ONE and I mean NO ONE is going to talk to USADA now. If anything people are more intimidated of Armstrong than ever before. If Lance can take on the government and win then USADA aren't going to do Jack.

Not going to happen.

I think you are right. I don't think that riders will talk now. There is no risk anymore. With the federals they were scared of being accused of perjury. Now, they don't care.

Don't count on Victor Hugo Peña either, because he is back in Europe racing.

 

[DirtyWorks]

I think you are right. I don't think that riders will talk now. There is no risk anymore. With the federals they were scared of being accused of perjury. Now, they don't care.

Don't count on Victor Hugo Peña either, because he is back in Europe racing.

The list for USADA would be pretty short anyway. A bunch of Americans that all came up in Weisel's USAC. And then there's the problem of USAC/UCI running defense. And USADA's limited resources. And.... And...

It would be nice if something comes from USADA activity. But, I'm not hopeful.

 

[danjo007]

Gosh! Armstrong ruined cycling . . .. by dominating one race. Cycling has long had a filthy history of doping . . . and Armstrong ruined it. The Festina tradition . . . Armstrong ruined it. Conconi and Ferrari . . . ruined by Armstrong.

What? Armstrong ruined cycling by not putting the toilet seat down when he was done?

i agree mark.

he did more for cycling than ruin it. the only thing he ruined, is a lot of people's day that congregate on this forum. and they dont even know they are a minority

 

[Race Radio]

I'm a few pages behind but in case it hasn't been pointed out already, it's a stretch to see anything nefarious about a livestrong donation to planned parenthood last week.


Those of you outside the USA may not be aware of this, but last week, many famous people and organizations made donations to planned parenthood because the cancer charity Susan G Komen For the Cure announced they would no longer support Planned Parenthood's breast cancer screening (previously they donated $3mil), supposedly because the religious wackos in the usa pressured them to stop. It is totally expected that Livestrong, being a cancer organization as well would be one of the groups that stepped up to fill the gap left by Komen.

It seems Komen has now reversed their decision after getting slammed by, well, by just about everyone except the religious wackos.

I agree. The Livestrong donation makes sense, it falls in line with their mission......however I fully expect that political pressure and maneuvering played a significant role in getting Birotte to ignore the investigators and drop the case.

 

[DirtyWorks]

i agree mark.

he did more for cycling than ruin it. the only thing he ruined, is a lot of people's day that congregate on this forum. and they dont even know they are a minority

We've been over this 1000+ times.

-He supplied a team-wide drug program. Drug running as a rewarding career!
-He required riders take drugs. Awesome employer innovation!
-Took PED's since he was a teenager. That's one to teach the kids and parents.
-Done too much good for 'cancer awareness' and his own celebrity status.

What did I miss?

I too called politics as one likely scenario that ended the investigation. Power and money trump the rule of law in 2012.

 

[Oldman]

If you read my comment before you quoted it you would have noticed that it said "a majority". I know that not all americans are like that. But I stand by what I wrote - it is what I see before my eyes. And after the case against Armstrong was dropped I don't really care much about offending USA or about pro cycling. CN moderators can censor me or throw me off their board, it's all a joke now any way.

It might be offensive to you, but a lot of americans are in fact worshipping Armstrong. And it's not only because the feel good lies he sells. They like that he not only won but crushed, destroyed, annihilated and humiliated the competitors. Apparently that is the american way. It is not enough to be part of cycling, no, they have to dominate it, buy it, own it. And they were able to do it, no one can take that away from them. But it didn't make them popular. And it ruined the sport.

Bein' a 'Mericun I kin tell you that most in this country never cared and still don't. Those that did were looking to cash in on the hype as much as he did. Now there's no money in it. Cyclists here know him for what he is and look to who is actually racing. He's already a dirty footnote in American sporting history and not representative of any national zeit geist related to sports. There isn't one here as much as you off-shore might think; just sports junkies looking to be entertained.
Not many NFL stadium riots, here.

 

[Escarabajo]

i agree mark.

he did more for cycling than ruin it. the only thing he ruined, is a lot of people's day that congregate on this forum. and they dont even know they are a minority

Minority in the USA? I thought the forum was a world wide web Site. If it is then, there is no way they are the minority..

Outside the forum either.

 

[danjo007]

how is you crying going to make the world a better place? it isnt, so stop it!

 

[VeloCity]

i agree mark.

he did more for cycling than ruin it. the only thing he ruined, is a lot of people's day that congregate on this forum. and they dont even know they are a minority

I hear this a lot, but what exactly did he do for cycling? I don't think he "ruined" it like some seem to believe, but at the same time I don't think he really added anything to it either. I'm surprised that the investigation ended as abruptly as it did, but it doesn't change the fact that Armstrong was still the top doper among a field of dopers. How does that do anything for cycling?

 

[Velodude]

Then this…


And this…


The only response -



Well, inquiring minds still want to know if there are any links to leaks regarding a personal unsubstantiated decision of political origin - or is your comment destined to become another Clinic myth?

If your supposition is only an opinion, fine. If not, can you provide the link(s)?

Thank you.

You must have read all the media reports as they have been not only linked but copied and pasted throughout this thread.

The timeline was:

1. As U.S. Attorney Andre Birotte Jr. announced at 5.00pm on the Friday of the Super Bowl weekend "his office" is closing the case, without providing the reasons, the presumption was from the faithful around the comments of media websites that LA had won and been vindicated.

2. Then from leaks to journalists various media sites reported (circa 4.00pm Saturday) this presumption was not substantiated but that it was a (political) decision made at the (personal) discretion of Mr. Birotte Jr., or directed to be made by Mr. Birotte Jr., without the due courtesy of consultation with or the knowledge of the hierarchy involved in the investigation.

3. The controversy erupted when it became known through these leaks that the case was not dropped through potential problems of securing a conviction but at the political discretion of Mr. Birotte Jr. and suggestions there is a link to a mentor Senator involved in a cancer/abortion/family planning cause, to which Livestrong just donated $100,000, which gives rise to an apprehension of bias.

 

[Neworld]

China doesnt even own 10% of our debt (US owns over 70% of its own debt). I get so sick of this china to own the US argument. Get the facts straight dude

Sorry GWAR, you might want to read up a bit.

Newsweek, Debt Debate: China's View
Aug 7, 2011 10:00 AM EDT

"Readers who enjoy arithmetic can now answer a further question: what proportion of the federal debt is owed to foreigners? The answer is just less than a third. If you exclude the part of the debt the government owes to itself, the figure is 46 percent—nearly half. But my Chinese friend didn’t need me to tell him that. Everyone here knows that the United States is in hock to the rest of the world and that China is its No. 1 creditor.

According to official figures, mainland China holds $1.1 trillion in U.S.-government debt instruments. But it’s an open secret that the Chinese authorities also like to buy Treasuries via intermediaries in London, Hong Kong, and elsewhere. Add the U.K. and Hong Kong figures and the total is closer to $1.6 trillion—about 17 percent of the federal debt in public hands. And if you include nongovernmental securities held in China’s international reserves, the U.S. debt to China rises to more than $2 trillion.

The antics of American legislators take on a new significance when you realize how our leading creditor interprets them. As Beijing sees it, the last three months have furnished ample evidence that—regardless of what the American rating agencies may say—the United States is no longer creditworthy. Even if Congress has pulled back from the brink of outright default, many in China view the debt deal as at best a temporary fix. As the Xinhua News Agency put it, the 11th-hour deal has “failed to defuse Washington’s debt bomb for good, only delaying an immediate detonation by making the fuse an inch longer.” Meanwhile, the unspoken intention of the Federal Reserve is to debase the dollar through “quantitative easing,” which translates into Mandarin as “printing money.” (It’s no accident that one of the bestselling economics books in China is called Currency Wars.)

So the Chinese have skin in this game. And their U.S. exposure doesn’t stop there. In order to prevent devaluation of their dollars, they have no option but to keep buying yet more dollar-denominated securities. That strategy suits their exporters fine, since it keeps their goods competitive in the American market. But what if the effect of last week’s debt deal, which mandates deficit reduction of $2.1 trillion over the next 10 years, causes a further slowdown in U.S. growth? Not so good.

China has its own economic problems, to be sure. But they are the problems of a rising power. From Beijing’s standpoint, America’s problems are plainly those of a power in decline. We didn’t just raise a ceiling last week. In Chinese eyes, we also fell through a floor."

But Lance can turn this all around, he's a pure and honest American legend now! He can champion anything: cycling, cancer, collusion, and even debt.

NW

 

[thehog]

You must have read all the media reports as they have been not only linked but copied and pasted throughout this thread.

The timeline was:

1. As U.S. Attorney Andre Birotte Jr. announced at 5.00pm on the Friday of the Super Bowl weekend "his office" is closing the case, without providing the reasons, the presumption was from the faithful around the comments of media websites that LA had won and been vindicated.

2. Then from leaks to journalists various media sites reported (circa 4.00pm Saturday) this presumption was not substantiated but that it was a (political) decision made at the (personal) discretion of Mr. Birotte Jr., or directed to be made by Mr. Birotte Jr., without the due courtesy of consultation with or the knowledge of the hierarchy involved in the investigation.

3. The controversy erupted when it became known through these leaks that the case was not dropped through potential problems of securing a conviction but at the political discretion of Mr. Birotte Jr. and suggestions there is a link to a mentor Senator involved in a cancer/abortion/family planning cause, to which Livestrong just donated $100,000, which gives rise to an apprehension of bias.

Question; as I value your opinion.

Can the case be reopened? ie Can Nov take it higher or to other senators to be allowed to complete his job?

If it was shut down on politics alone can pressure be applied to re-open the case in the other direction?

 

[Maxiton]

Question; as I value your opinion.

Can the case be reopened? ie Can Nov take it higher or to other senators to be allowed to complete his job?

If it was shut down on politics alone can pressure be applied to re-open the case in the other direction?

"Birotte’s decision may be reversed. If he made his decision for purely political reasons, he’s surely facing a department wide revolt right now. And if he was worried about prosecuting a popular sporting figure, he probably wouldn’t want to be perceived as showing favoritism towards the rich and powerful either.

"And this is where you come in.

"This is Birotte’s email address: andre.birotte@usdoj.gov. Send him an email if you think criminals shouldn’t escape prosecution if they’re wealthy and connected. Let him know that the government shouldn’t encourage whistleblowers like Landis and Hamilton to speak up against an immensely powerful figure, only to pull the rug out from under them. Tell him he shouldn’t unilaterally negate two years of Novitzky’s hard work. Get the word out on Twitter, Facebook, smoke signals, whatever. Feel free to post all of this on your site or blog. If this investigation was quashed for political reasons, it is our job as fans of our sport to make our voices heard."

See here.

 

[Maxiton]

Americans like Armstrong because he is a compatriot who was the best in a very very difficult sport. they also love the story of the cancer comeback, of someone showing guts, fighting through challenges and the fact that they think he has done a lot for charity.

To make remarks about an entire people"admiring" negative characteristics such as tyrany is very offensive.

Exactamundo. Thanks, Hitch.