USADA-Armstrong Phase II

[DirtyWorks]

Fair enough. But then why did he publicly offer that he would be "happy with that outcome" [losing one or two Tour titles]?

Remember who we're talking about. This same guy claimed he'd cooperate fully with a USADA investigation and a laundry list of lies the bounds of which are not yet known. His words mean nothing.

He can't talk plainly to USADA if he actually knew what the truth was any more, he'd purger(??) himself anyway to try to keep the myth alive.

 

[sittingbison]

Armstrong is a sociopath. He will not respond logically or heed advice

 

[joe_papp]

So you think he had too much exposure to fess up, even if he wanted to? I tend to agree. But why then did he indicate his willingness to give up two Tours? Did he think somehow that he could remain uncooperative and still only be sanctioned for two?

I think that, yes - that his potential exposure (plus his general mentality) precluded any admission of guilt. Plus, a direct admission of guilt is what USADA would require for any negotiated sanction - and you have to wonder whether or not LA could've puked-that up w/ a straight face. I advised that it could've opened the door for Comeback v3.0 but I guess that was too big a gamble even for him...

Fair enough. But then why did he publicly offer that he would be "happy with that outcome" [losing one or two Tour titles]?

I don't believe he articulated that exact position, but the Men's Journal article responses originated from the assumption that that's what the probable loss was (2 Tours) - and this is the outcome he claimed to be too tired of fighting to worry about (whether or not that implies satisfaction is not clear).

 

[Velodude]

....<snip>...I understand that Armstrong was on the phone with Bruyneel yesterday trying to get him to drop the arbitration. Johan has a lot more to lose as he will be unemployable if he is sanctioned. He does not have the cash that Wonderboy has.

I find it difficult to accept that the content of a private telephone conversation between the main players of a covert doping operation that covered over 10 years would allow this conversation to leak to the public.

Not doubting RR but it has an odor that LA wants to be seen at loggerheads with Bruyneel when, in reality, both are part of a ruse for Bruyneel to proceed to arbitration but withdraw at the last moment.

The consequence is the alleged compelling evidence USADA holds will not be released for months rather than immediately after LA has delivered his hollow reasons for not going to arbitration.

 

[PotentialPro]

Then I misread your point previously. I apologize.

As to your point regarding Tygart and the SOL, I think what he is saying is that there is leniency in the punishment they can pursue, but no reason to provide anything if there is no cooperation. I would think any prosecutor (as this is the most logical analogy) will pursue the fullest charges they can under similar circumstances. I find that pretty consistent with what I know of such things. I don't think his point is stripping the titles, and that is how I read the article. I think his point is for the truth of what happened to come out, and he is willing to be pretty generous if you ask me. Taking into account the information that is trickling out, it seems that he is undertaking anything like a vendetta. He just wants the whole episode to become public, and that is a logical goal. That is my take anyway.

Glad we could be civil.

I have been reading a considerable amount in the last couple of days, the disgusting parts by the fan boys, and the continued dissection of the information as it trickles through. I think you are moving in the right direction in regards to thought processes.
While there are a number of viable considerations, I, like you boiled it down to two specifics: omerta and omerta.

We have UCI based omerta on Armstrongs part. If he breaks, then it takes down UCI in a massive way.

We also have rider based omerta. If Armstrong is taken down in arbitration, then it reveals all (or a great deal) of the doping processes. This would hurt the peloton massively.

The single best action for Armstrong was to not appear in arbitration, and allow the public to make up its own mind. Apparently, the public is not so smart, and this is far to sophisticated for the feeble minded. So we have millions that are willingly led around by their not by their noses but by stupid little yellow wrist bands.

 

[python]

think of usada as an investigation agency with the authority to punish

...you just completed an investigation and you're sitting on a wealth of irrefutable evidence.

a logical first step then, a step that saves EVERYONE's time and resources, is to call up ONE of the subjects of the investigation and see if he is able to add to the total picture.

armstrong was the only one who refused. the only one who challenged usada.

his calculation was very predictable - they will not dare to face me with my power, money, connections and influence.

it turned out he misread travis just like misread betsy and much later contador.

there exist in this world strong-willed, principled people who are not subject to intimidation.

once again, everything comes in the end to armstrong boundless arrogance.

 

[FabulousCandelabra]

I've always hung out in this forum, never discussed Lance in a public forum, it's frightening how seemingly most people believe in Lance! ugh makes me sick.. if you feel like helping this guy out, he's done a great job rebutting some of these morons on reddit.. theres more threads about lance on reddit that don't have anyone to educate the public also..

http://www.reddit.com/r/sports/comments/ytzwv/if_he_can_handle_the_psychological_pressure_he/c5yzpw4

 

[the big ring]

I've always hung out in this forum, never discussed Lance in a public forum, it's frightening how seemingly most people believe in Lance! ugh makes me sick.. if you feel like helping this guy out, he's done a great job rebutting some of these morons on reddit.. theres more threads about lance on reddit that don't have anyone to educate the public also..

http://www.reddit.com/r/sports/comments/ytzwv/if_he_can_handle_the_psychological_pressure_he/c5yzpw4

USADA list at least one case (http://www.usada.org/uploads/oliveiraCAS.pdf) were CAS upheld an athlete's objection and reduced their sanction. Not a reddit member, but it could be used to refute some other people's input at the end.

 

[the big ring]

Putting the boot in: http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/truth-wins-out-in-the-end-3210250.html

The problem with believing that Lance Armstrong was innocent of the doping charges laid against him was that it meant you also had to believe he was the victim of a huge conspiracy. How else could you explain the fact that so many people were prepared to testify against him?

 

[python]

<snip>
It also suggests that either they don’t have a lot of confidence in extending the SOL (and they shouldn’t), or that they feel taking all seven is excessive punishment. I think both, actually. It does seem odd that they would express a willingness to settle in public like this, though, revealing their hand. That is not evidence of real confidence in one’s position.

I disagree, particularly with the bolded part

travis simply gave an insight into the basis for stripping all 7 tours. he is doing what he promised - to gradually let the public into what went on.

an insecure usada would not reveal its cards. What travis said about the compromise Armstrong flaunted, is consistent with wada position on the issue.

as I mentioned several times, it is apparent to me that wada was kept appraised of the investigation into Armstrong all along. may be wada does not have a complete file but are aware of the key pieces of evidence. it is obvious not only from the strong language of the uci's rebuke by wada, but from the prior several hints dropped by howman in interviews.

usada has full backing (and i believe by now a commitment) to fight uci all the way should they be so foolish and appeal to cas.

I am confident and WADA is confident that the USADA acted within the WADA code… They now have the right to apply a penalty that will be recognized by all WADA code countries around the world….my understanding is that when the evidence is based upon a career that included seven Tour de France wins then all of that becomes obliterated.

the current wada president would not say things like that frivolously. he is not dijk pound.

 

[Benotti69]

I disagree, particularly with the bolded part

travis simply gave an insight into the basis for stripping all 7 tours. he is doing what he promised - to gradually let the public into what went on.

an insecure usada would not reveal its cards. What travis said about the compromise Armstrong flaunted, is consistent with wada position on the issue.

as I mentioned several times, it is apparent to me that wada was kept appraised of the investigation into Armstrong all along. may be wada does not have a complete file but are aware of the key pieces of evidence. it is obvious not only from the strong language of the uci's rebuke by wada, but from the prior several hints dropped by howman in interviews.

usada has full backing (and i believe by now a commitment) to fight uci all the way should they be so foolish and appeal to cas.



the current wada president would not say things like that frivolously. he is not dijk pound.

Good Post Python.

IOC are not going to go against WADA to save two little spittle lackies like Hein and Pat.

In fact i imagine there are some knifes being sharpened in the IOC right now by those wishing to take advantage of this moment to rid IOC of Hein.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Just to clarify for you guys, with this case seen from USADA's vantage, there were really only two possible outcomes were they (USADA) to prevail:

1) full and frank confession from Armstrong, acknowledgment of the extent of his doping in specifics, commitment to some anti-doping public service in USA - in exchange for agency's respecting the SOL and negotiating a settlement invalidating only those results that were "at-risk" or fair game under SOL, and not pursuing an enhanced sanction based on aggravating circumstances, or

2) anything less than the above = scorched-Earth, invalidation of entire career if/when USADA was to prevail at arbitration.

The talk of revisiting the lifetime ban is thrown in there as more of a bone that they're not too worried about actually being picked up, at least as long as LA retains current counsel. Though of course they could modify the sanction under the "substantial assistance" provision, which can apply even after a case has been adjudicated in USADA's favor. Extremely unlikely imo that that would ever happen though, as I would have to think that LA's legal exposure would be huge on an admission of guilt, and his resources not-very-huge by comparison - precluding him from admitting to what he's been denying vehemently for so long.

I don't think it's cynical of USADA to offer the possibility of a reduced sanction (from Life to 8 years; once you've identified aggravating circumstances, they can't pretend those didn't exist - so even if LA owns it now it's too late. he would've needed to do that before the formal charging took place). After all, look what happened w/ Floyd, after the fact.

I think USADA, TT, WB & others there much would've preferred to get a confession from LA and his cooperation fighting doping going fwd instead of beating him in arbitration or this pseudo-nolo contendere stuff. They're happy to work w/ former adversaries and they do an admirable job of not making it personal.

Haven't talked w/ TT about these specifics since the outcome tho, so don't quote me.

Aren't you forgetting the federal lawsuit when LA would admit? The possible SCA lawsuit?

LA is/was battling a two front war, he can't escape anymore so he'll just 'take the fifth'.

 

[Cavalier]

Random aside: Hincapie still has the Livestrong band on his twitter avatar. Found that amusing.

 

[the big ring]

Random aside: Hincapie still has the Livestrong band on his twitter avatar. Found that amusing.

But he doesn't wear one at the race though

 

[TheEnoculator]

When do you think Hincapie will speak out if he will ever speak out? After he retired this year? He's the only one who can truly give closure to what really happened. He's the only one Armstrong can't smear. He's the only one whose words are undoubtedly trusted by the cycling community. He is key to expose Armstrong's lies.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Yes. I think you make some very important points. Based on the Google News searches that I've done, I think about half the press tend to view this thing as USADA being too severe with the punishment and too heavy-handed in the approach. And up until now, LA has really been able to exploit the "I'm an underdog being persecuted" approach pretty effectively. So floating this offer of leniency out there in a USA Today interview may be a very smart move for USADA, assuming they care at all what people think about their approach. And clearly they do, otherwise Mr. Tygart wouldn't be doing interviews with the press.

I would really like to see some examples of that - because how can "the press" state a punishment is too severe when they do not know the scale of the offences?
All I have read is some elements of the press mitigating the decision by pointing to Armstrong's 'charity work'.

The USA Today article does not make clear at all whether LA was offered such leniency in terms of the SOL expressly ahead of time, or whether like the rest of us, this is the first suggestion that USADA would have considered such an approach, and indeed still is open to it. Hopefully in the next few days or weeks to come, Mr. Tygart will clarify USADA's position.

It was clear from Hermans responses to USADA in the Fed case that USADA had invited Armstrong (or his legal team) in for a discussion prior to the charges being made.

 

[Pastavore]

Not sure if this is the right thread for this, but nice commentary from an Aussie perspective.

http://theconversation.edu.au/is-the-lance-armstrong-affair-a-race-to-the-bottom-for-cycling-9073

Written by Martin Hardie. Remember where you have heard that before?

 

[webvan]

So we have a new thread, ok !

Interesting to see stuff trickling out...Savoldelli's comments (i.e. Armstrong is a sociopath), that French lawyer who tells us someone pulled the plug on a 2005 Discovery hotel search (all chummy with Sarkozy then minister of the interior), etc...I wasn't expecting that but there is likely a lot more to come.

Shame on the Merckx's of course for standing by L.A. but no surprise there...

 

[fatandfast]

The USADA using profoundly poor judgement has let 2 of 3 on the podium at USA Pro challenge have direct involvement in Lance's doping scandal but have not said anything officially. USAPC has honored big George for lifelong achievements with the omission of being involved directly with the teams and people from the biggest drug scandal in cycling history.

We should all rest easy that this is the right way to rid the sport of PED use and that it was not an all out attempt to only get Armstrong

 

[python]

Not sure if this is the right thread for this, but nice commentary from an Aussie perspective.

http://theconversation.edu.au/is-the-lance-armstrong-affair-a-race-to-the-bottom-for-cycling-9073

Written by Martin Hardie. Remember where you have heard that before?

thanx. an excellent read. a point-by-point rebuttal of the uci lackey and cycling australia president.

 

[barn yard]

The USADA using profoundly poor judgement has let 2 of 3 on the podium at USA Pro challenge have direct involvement in Lance's doping scandal but have not said anything officially. USAPC has honored big George for lifelong achievements with the omission of being involved directly with the teams and people from the biggest drug scandal in cycling history.

We should all rest easy that this is the right way to rid the sport of PED use and that it was not an all out attempt to only get Armstrong

i don't think anyone will disagree with you on that

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Jensie talks; this is the kind of things we need riders to say

Voigt said a clear conscience is also the reward for avoiding the "short cuts" that lead to doping allegations and busts.

"[Thursday] I had to go to doping control after my stage win," he said. "And I know that even if they freeze it for 100 years and tested it with new methods 100 years from now, it's my win, because nothing is going to happen.

"There is nothing in my urine sample, so I can sleep," he continued. "I can go with my kids, go for a swim, go for a barbecue, go to the zoo, go geocaching and don't be afraid that people might point their fingers at me. I think that's really worth the effort. I'm trying to teach the kids: go straight in life and you will be rewarded for that."


That is what this entire proceeding is about; teaching the kids you don't have to cheat to be a winner!

It is all about the kids.

 

[Briant_Gumble]

The USADA using profoundly poor judgement has let 2 of 3 on the podium at USA Pro challenge have direct involvement in Lance's doping scandal but have not said anything officially. USAPC has honored big George for lifelong achievements with the omission of being involved directly with the teams and people from the biggest drug scandal in cycling history.

We should all rest easy that this is the right way to rid the sport of PED use and that it was not an all out attempt to only get Armstrong

It was an all out attempt to get the UCI more than anything and remove the structure of doping within cycling. I don't think Hincapie poses as much threat to the health of future cyclists and the integrity of the sport as the UCI does under it's current management.

I thought Travis justified himself well in the radio interview he did posted in the initial thread, under pressure cyclist's who have bills to pay, focused on cycling over an education and are generally much younger when they make the decision to dope should not be punished as severely as team leader's, official's and doctor's.

 

[Anonymous]

The USADA using profoundly poor judgement has let 2 of 3 on the podium at USA Pro challenge have direct involvement in Lance's doping scandal but have not said anything officially. USAPC has honored big George for lifelong achievements with the omission of being involved directly with the teams and people from the biggest drug scandal in cycling history.

We should all rest easy that this is the right way to rid the sport of PED use and that it was not an all out attempt to only get Armstrong

Did George, Christian or Levi ever own the UCI?

 

[Briant_Gumble]

For anyone interested, I found this BS on facebook:

http://www.facebook.com/TheAntiUsAntiDopingAgencyPage

There a bit racist with their "The French or USADA need not apply" which you would expect with their page title.

I was thinking it would be funny if they had also likes:

"The Flat earth society", "Santa Claus IS real" and "life found on Mars".