USADA-Armstrong Phase II

[ChewbaccaD]

Wow, I thought the light forced the cockroaches into hiding...man was I wrong.

 

[ÅSBJÖRN BENKT]

About time Blazing Saddles wrote something decent but then blows it all with his BS line at the end. Idiot.

it's fair ending.

It's a sign of the complexities of the sport and the Armstrong story that this latest bombshell will make no difference to his legacy to his hoards of fans worldwide. And given the amazing work he does for cancer sufferers and survivors, this is probably a good thing.

 

[Benotti69]

MORBIUS

They may SAY they have proof, but they have shown nothing.
Not one piece of evidence was given to Lance's lawyers.
How can one prepare a defense if they were not given the upcoming "proof" or a list of alleged witnesses willing to testify in open court??

I am not naive, but I don't believe he doped every single damn time.
So, USADA alone and only they can detect doped blood?!!!
Everyone else read the reports and concluded the opposite?
Even to say he doped for all 7 Tours, then decided on a comeback that had little chance of victory, and Lance said what? "Hell, I'm going to risk all my past victories by taking some top-notch dope to beat Contador and Schleck and Evans." Are you kidding me? Tell me that makes sense.

The only factor I would like to see is how did Lance have enough Testosterone with only one ball?
Either he is the greatest rider ever or he was the best doper of all time.
I think being an uncaught doper is more impossible than being the best rider.
And if he didn't want to get caught, tell me he decided to shoot all the main drugs as some sort of EPO, HGH, Testosterone cocktail in front of every rider ever on his team??

Jusge Sparks was satisfied of USADAs claim to have evidence.

Easy to be best the best doper that when you fail tests they cover it up for you.

Easy to be the best doper when you when the OOC are coming so you can prepare yourself not to test positive.

Easy to be the best doper when you bribe the Federation who do the testing!


Ask yourself this? Why are all the cycling fans in the clinic demanding clean cycling while at the same time calling Armstrong the greatest fraud in the history of sport.

It is simple he doped. He was the guy who came back from cancer and doped. No one had the balls to call it in 1999 as he was a great advert for cycling. It snowballed. He and his people saw the potenial of that and manipulated it to 7 wins. Now its over. He got caught.

 

[gree0232]

Worrying to see the near total domination of uneducated fanatic pro-LA supporters on the message board of the FOX sports link you gave....

I think the Lance Haters would do well to drop the harpoons for a bit and take a look, a real look, at the issue to see what makes this case so troubling.

"While the federal court concluded that it lacked jurisdiction to address these issues, its decision leaves no room for doubt that our concerns are well-founded. Indeed, the court’s observations make clear that Mr. Armstrong’s arguments that USADA lacks jurisdiction are compelling, and that USADA’s efforts to sanction Mr. Armstrong for alleged conduct dating back to before 1996, had “the smell of bad fish.” The ethical implications for an inquisition based on hearsay from witnesses to whom USADA has promised leniency are questionable at best. As for the inclusion of foreigners who have never set foot on US soil, Judge Sparks detected a “stench”. As the Court aptly put it, USADA’s conduct has been “motivated more by politics and a desire for media attention than faithful adherence to [USADA’s] obligations."

...

"A USADA proceeding would force Mr. Armstrong to arbitrate about jurisdiction in at least two, and perhaps three, arbitrations – AAA and then CAS – and perhaps later in a Swiss court. Then, when even USADA’s unfair multi-stage process confirms that USADA does not have authority or jurisdiction, USADA would then be free to submit the file to UCI for consideration and referral and start what would be another review by CAS prior to any dispositive proceeding. It is fundamentally unfair to put Mr. Armstrong through that costly and time-consuming process, particularly when it is already clear that USADA does not have authority to bring these charges. Mr. Armstrong will, instead, respect the decision of UCI with every confidence that his position should and will be vindicated through independent review by authorities with lawful jurisdiction over this matter. As you are aware, this has been the exclusive and required procedure invoked for every international cyclist except Mr. Armstrong."

http://alt.coxnewsweb.com/statesman/pdf/2012/Bock-letter.pdf

Its the last part there that should be troubling to everyone. Why partake in a process whose decisions can repeatedly be appealed by all parties to do the same thing at least three more times? It makes no sense. Concepts like double jeopardy, etc. allowing anonymous accussers to hone their testimony before repeated urispidctions is a farce of a legal process.

Its pretty simple, USADA, having launched is Crusade for the White Whale of Cycling now has to actually demonstrate the evidence. And if its is not convincing to agencies other than itself ... well, I think who winds up with egg on their face is not yet been determined.

If this is nothing more than a re-hash of the Andreau's, Hamilton, Landis, LeMond stuff we have been listening to for 17 years now? Then shame on USADA.

Its time, as I have long said, to either produce the evidence (and USADA made this process extremely public, offered a PUBLIC arbitration after all) or apologize.

 

[TShame]

Guilty on all counts nonsense

Very childish response, I'm afraid.
I'm just using logic.
USADA has not shared any evidence it claims to have with UCI, who have the identical blood test values. Even the Olympics got fooled? They caught Hamilton but couldn't detect any drugs in Lance's blood?
He wasn't satisfied with one drug but had to take every single one?
That is just plain ignorant, sorry to say.
Who was his drug mule? Where did he store his blood?
Why do so many cyclists claim to have had drugs on the team, but none of them can say who their supplier was? Where are the guys who claim, "I sold drugs to Lance"?
Funny how other guys who were caught using drugs NEVER had other teammates who claimed "He took them in front of the whole team."
Every teammate I have read was either shocked or suspicious, never an eyewitness.

EDIT: sorry forgot to put quote to chewy for saying simply that I am naive without any substance.

 

[the big ring]

I spent the better part of tonight writing this up. If you get the chance, have a read through it - I know I missed some stuff, so if you can think of something I omitted, let me know, and I'll edit it in if it's relevant. But if you agree with it, every chance you get, send a Lance worshipper to read it. Slowly but surely, we can stop falsification. Retweet it, facebook it, post it on forums. 60% of people believing in Lance polls is far too high, and it's only through misinformation that they do so.

It's not about the bike. It is about the behaviour and the drugs. A truthful look at Armstrong's history: http://tmblr.co/ZDdCpuS6QClQ

The receipt was produced (according to CN?? who saw it) for the Sysmex but they were not allowed to take a photo of it...

 

[gree0232]

Jusge Sparks was satisfied of USADAs claim to have evidence.

No, Judge Sparks claimed that his court currently lacked jurispidiction ... at this time. He dismissed the case without prejudice. That means he gave USADA a chance to produce thier evidence and demonstrate a fair and impartial process. The without prejudice allows Armstrong to refile the suit of Judge Sparks own concerns about the process appear to validated.

Perhaps the Lance Haters should read the briefs, which, unlike the evidence against Armstrong from USADA, are very much public.

 

[Page Mill Masochist]

What arguments/facts did you use that worked/made the breakthrough? Have a couple of people I would like to turn myself, so would really like to know

I just say I hate cheating.

I say I hate cheating in sports, in finance, in business, in religion, in politics.

For most people I leave it at that. Lance is not worth the cost of a valued personal relationship.

 

[eleven]

The opinions of the ignorant have never altered reality. The reality is that Armstrong is a fraud. Nothing will ever change that.

Oh that may well be the case - but he will continue to make a very comfortable living and be respected by his base of support. This is America, where Sarah Palin is an ignorant fraud - but she's an ignorant fraud with a loyal base of support.

Nothing will change either of the above. As many Clinic denizens await some final and complete explosion where Armstrong is forced to live a in a trailer down by the river, that explosion just isn't coming. Hell, a good number of respected people on this board assured us he wouldn't even get a trailer - He'd be behind bars.

 

[eleven]

S
Name the good he has done for people.

I have no doubt that the primary purpose of Livestrong is to manage the Armstrong brand, but to claim that Livestrong has done no good for anyone is just silly.

 

[BillytheKid]

I smell civil. Something says civil. It has to play out some, but I think yes, it does make sense. Is it right and just? That was not my point.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I think the Lance Haters would do well to drop the harpoons for a bit and take a look, a real look, at the issue to see what makes this case so troubling.

"While the federal court concluded that it lacked jurisdiction to address these issues, its decision leaves no room for doubt that our concerns are well-founded. Indeed, the court’s observations make clear that Mr. Armstrong’s arguments that USADA lacks jurisdiction are compelling, and that USADA’s efforts to sanction Mr. Armstrong for alleged conduct dating back to before 1996, had “the smell of bad fish.” The ethical implications for an inquisition based on hearsay from witnesses to whom USADA has promised leniency are questionable at best. As for the inclusion of foreigners who have never set foot on US soil, Judge Sparks detected a “stench”. As the Court aptly put it, USADA’s conduct has been “motivated more by politics and a desire for media attention than faithful adherence to [USADA’s] obligations."

...

"A USADA proceeding would force Mr. Armstrong to arbitrate about jurisdiction in at least two, and perhaps three, arbitrations – AAA and then CAS – and perhaps later in a Swiss court. Then, when even USADA’s unfair multi-stage process confirms that USADA does not have authority or jurisdiction, USADA would then be free to submit the file to UCI for consideration and referral and start what would be another review by CAS prior to any dispositive proceeding. It is fundamentally unfair to put Mr. Armstrong through that costly and time-consuming process, particularly when it is already clear that USADA does not have authority to bring these charges. Mr. Armstrong will, instead, respect the decision of UCI with every confidence that his position should and will be vindicated through independent review by authorities with lawful jurisdiction over this matter. As you are aware, this has been the exclusive and required procedure invoked for every international cyclist except Mr. Armstrong."

http://alt.coxnewsweb.com/statesman/pdf/2012/Bock-letter.pdf

Its the last part there that should be troubling to everyone. Why partake in a process whose decisions can repeatedly be appealed by all parties to do the same thing at least three more times? It makes no sense. Concepts like double jeopardy, etc. allowing anonymous accussers to hone their testimony before repeated urispidctions is a farce of a legal process.

Its pretty simple, USADA, having launched is Crusade for the White Whale of Cycling now has to actually demonstrate the evidence. And if its is not convincing to agencies other than itself ... well, I think who winds up with egg on their face is not yet been determined.

If this is nothing more than a re-hash of the Andreau's, Hamilton, Landis, LeMond stuff we have been listening to for 17 years now? Then shame on USADA.

Its time, as I have long said, to either produce the evidence (and USADA made this process extremely public, offered a PUBLIC arbitration after all) or apologize.

Hi Gree - good to see you back.
Mr. Armstrong knows the evidence that is against him - which is why he weakly handed away his results of his career away, because the last thing he wants is the evidence to be available.
But like you, I would like to see that evidence too - hopefully we won't have long to wait.

 

[MarkvW]

The opinions of the ignorant have never altered reality. The reality is that Armstrong is a fraud. Nothing will ever change that.

The opinions of the ignorant have often shaped reality. Jim Crow, the Nuremberg laws, violent jihad . . .. Reminds me of 'The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance:' "When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."

Lance Armstrong himself is just a rich jerk. Any reality that goes with that, seems to me, is unimportant. What's going on is Lance's struggle to retain his icon/symbol status. I reckon that symbolic reality needs to get a good blast of the truth (and I figure that it surely will).

Armstrong is bumping his head against another truism: "You can feel some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time."

 

[ManInFull]

Perhaps the Lance Haters should read the briefs, which, unlike the evidence against Armstrong from USADA, are very much public.

We read them.

He's a doper and most of the "Lance Lovers" know it. So, they offer excuses:

(1) The USADA investigation is a witch hunt
(2) Lance is a Hero
(3) Lance has raised money for the fight against cancer
(4) Everyone else doped
(5) He has done so much for cycling

But absolutely none of them can provide a reasonable answer to a very simple question--why would 10 or more people be willing to lie under oath in order to frame Lance?

The fact is that Floyd Landis, regardless of the lies he's told, finally came clean in July 2010 and provided information that eventually resulted in Lance saying "Screw it" on August 23, 2012.

 

[Benotti69]

it's fair ending.

Nope it is BS. But then you have a load of yellow and black stuff dont you!

I'll content myself with the knowledge that he was stripped of all victories over 20 years. Not bad you know. He cant look at anyone and say he won anything fair and square. He can say we were all on dope. Not the same thing. He never won anything fair. He always cheated and now it is common knowledge.

Lance Armstrong the biggest doper in sporting history.

I suppose his Mum told him he would be the biggest at something. I bet she didn't think it would be cheating.

 

[Big Doopie]

don't know if this has been mentioned. vescey in the times. what a tool.

same old crapola:

1. best in a dirty sport.
2. level playing field

no mention of uci corruption aiding and abetting providing him with an advantage. no science on the fact that people react differently to peds. no mention of hidden positives.

and -- most egregiously -- no mention of more talented riders who may have been forced to give up their dream. nor any mention of the obsessive active destruction of the lives of many honest people. does that not count for anything these days? am i just old-fashioned that way?

 

[frenchfry]

Call them what they are: lobbyists for the cancer industry.

Livestrong is engaged in the commercialisation of the cancer movement and the exploitation of human generosity, hope and trust.

 

[thehog]

Armstrong is bumping his head against another truism: "You can feel some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time."

He has been know to feel people a lot of the time. Especially in the clubs in Austin. Lots of feeling going on.

 

[QuickStepper]

Very childish response, I'm afraid.
I'm just using logic.
USADA has not shared any evidence it claims to have with UCI, who have the identical blood test values. Even the Olympics got fooled? They caught Hamilton but couldn't detect any drugs in Lance's blood?
He wasn't satisfied with one drug but had to take every single one?
That is just plain ignorant, sorry to say.
Who was his drug mule? Where did he store his blood?
Why do so many cyclists claim to have had drugs on the team, but none of them can say who their supplier was? Where are the guys who claim, "I sold drugs to Lance"?
Funny how other guys who were caught using drugs NEVER had other teammates who claimed "He took them in front of the whole team."
Every teammate I have read was either shocked or suspicious, never an eyewitness.

EDIT: sorry forgot to put quote to chewy for saying simply that I am naive without any substance.

+1. The sad reality is that guys like Benotti and Chewie are really the trolls in disguise in this forum. Is there such a thing as a "reverse troll"? They evidently find it impossible to respond with civil discourse (well, in all fairness, Benotti at least appears to be slightly more rational and less pendatic), but for the most part, they must instead attack the messenger as Chewie did with the little one-liner drive-by swipe at your post that you are naive. Instead of any substantive reply, you're met with a silly little ad hominem reply that makes any continued rational discussion impossible to carry on. They are so emotionally attached to, as Gree0232 put it, "getting their White Whale," that any suggestion of another version of reality sends them into such emotional turmoil they lose the ability to respond intelligently, and instead must mock those who have had cancer or who have been touched by the disease in their family (ETA: see Benotti's response to Gree0232 below this post).

I think you're wasting your time here I know I am. And yes, I expect to see the same sort of insipid responses to this that have become routine here. I really don't give a sh!t anymore what some second year law student thinksm, someone who is so obsessed with whatever I write that he has to not only repond, but destroy the post and the poster to whom he's replying. It's not enough to disagree, or to state a different opinion. No we have to deal with insults and personal barbs that are anathema to any civilized discourse. Again though, I don't give a sh!t. Really. Gonna go ride my bike. Adios.

 

[Benotti69]

No, Judge Sparks claimed that his court currently lacked jurispidiction ... at this time. He dismissed the case without prejudice. That means he gave USADA a chance to produce thier evidence and demonstrate a fair and impartial process. The without prejudice allows Armstrong to refile the suit of Judge Sparks own concerns about the process appear to validated.

Perhaps the Lance Haters should read the briefs, which, unlike the evidence against Armstrong from USADA, are very much public.

Jusge Sparks dismissed Armstrongs claim to dismiss USADA was not in his juristiciton as USADA had allowed for due process in their arbitration.

Now Travis Tygart has stated that the evidence will be revealed in due course. Whats your rush?

Should you not be out spreading the cancer awareness message of something or other about cancer?

 

[ManInFull]

Jusge Sparks dismissed Armstrongs claim to dismiss USADA was not in his juristiciton as USADA had allowed for due process in their arbitration.

Now Travis Tygart has stated that the evidence will be revealed in due course. Whats your rush?

Should you not be out spreading the cancer awareness message of something or other about cancer?

For some reason, the "Lance Lovers" are convinced that all evidence should have been made available when USADA filed its charges. Why? What's wrong with Lance receiving all evidence once he's decided to fight the charges?

 

[Benotti69]

+1. The sad reality is that guys like Bennotti and Chewie are really the trolls in disguise in this forum. Is there such a thing as a "reverse troll"? They evidently find it impossible to respond to with civil discourse (well, in all fairness, Bennotiti at least appears to be slightly more rational and less pendatic), but for the most part, they must instead attack the messenger as Chewie did with the little one-liner drive-by swipe at your post that you are naive. Instead of any substantive reply, you're met with a silly little ad hominem reply that makes any continued rational discussion impossible to carry on. They are so emotionally attached to, as Gree put it, getting the White Whale, that any suggestion of another version of reality sends them into such emotional turmoil they lose the ability to respond intelligently.

I think you're wasting your time here I know I am. And yes, I expect to see the same sort of insipid responses to this that have become routine here. I really don't give a sh!t anymore what some second year law student thinks. Gonna go ride my bike. Adios.

Not emotionally attached to Armstrong, emotionally attached to cycling.

We are fans of clean cycling. Armstrong is the antithesis of what we want from cycling.

Armstrong from the day he put his backside on a bike has done no good for the sport. There are thousands in pro cycling like him and the clinic calls them out on their cheating and doping too.

If you were a fan of the sport we wouldn't only find you rambling in the Armstrong threads but in other threads discussing other riders, DS, Doctors, methods, Wattages, VAMS etc.

But we find you in here with your long winded pro Armstrong speil.

Enjoy your ride. Mind yer yella bracelet doesn't catch on the hoods.

 

[Benotti69]

For some reason, the "Lance Lovers" are convinced that all evidence should have been made available when USADA filed its charges. Why? What's wrong with Lance receiving all evidence once he's decided to fight the charges?

Absolutement.

 

[DirtyWorks]

For some reason, the "Lance Lovers" are convinced that all evidence should have been made available when USADA filed its charges. Why? What's wrong with Lance receiving all evidence once he's decided to fight the charges?

He can't intimidate witnesses for very long if he's only given a few days with the evidence. Bottom line: Wonderboy had to stay out of arbitration. He would have perjured himself trying to make the lies fit the array of witnesses consistent stories.

 

[Benotti69]

.... any suggestion of another version of reality sends them into such emotional turmoil they lose the ability to respond intelligently, and instead must mock those who have had cancer or who have been touched by the disease in their family

Everyone one western society has had some close contact with cancer. My count is lost 1, 1 survived and another still in play. Armstrong doesn't own cancer or cancer suffering. He would love to get a % of it and make big $$$$ but this comment shows your real intention.

Your a lieStrong intern bleeting away in here as a minion and if not you'll find them very happy to have you sit at a desk in their expensive offices built with charitable donations typing this crap for them

Armstrong did not fight and beat cancer. The drugs did that for him very efficiently just like the drugs he used to win 7 TdFs.

To use cancer as some kind of shield to protect Armstrong from his doping, cheating, bullying and fraudulent activities is an insult to every single person who has suffered or lost their lives to cancer and those who have suffered with them.