USADA - Armstrong

[ChewbaccaD]

The Feds where not charging doping. The criminal activity that they would have to go after was a lot tougher to prove beyond a reasonable doubt when you are facing top flight legal defense. They were not interested in probably getting a conviction... It's an election year, Armstrong is popular, has lots of powerful friends and they already had egg on their face from Bonds and Clements. They have put this behind them.

Unless of course the fall out from all this hands them Armstrong's head on a silver platter with a public happy to see the fraud prosecuted. Then it will be politically the easy decision.

I think this is pretty spot on.

 

[poupou]

There was a thread long ago which fairly accurately estimated the number of tests he would have had since 99. I think it got to about 100. There is a significant amount of data to get this number close to reality. He was a long way off from other riders.

For the period 1999 -2004, UCI datas:

* 1999 : 15 contrôles urinaires conventionnels (1 positif à la triamcinolone acétonide - corticoïdes)
* 2000 : 12 contrôles urinaires conventionnels
* 2001 : 10 contrôles urinaires conventionnels, dont 5 avec détection de l'EPO
* 2002 : 9 contrôles urinaires conventionnels incluant la recherche d'HES, dont 8 avec détection de l'EPO
* 2003 : 9 contrôles urinaires conventionnels incluant la recherche d'HES, dont 6 avec détection de l'EPO
* 2004 : 8 contrôles urinaires conventionnels incluant la recherche d'HES, dont 7 avec détection de l'EPO . 1 contrôle sanguin de détection des hémoglobines de synthèse .

 

[ChewbaccaD]

The US Government has spent $45 million + of our tax dollars trying to convict Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, and Lance Armstrong. At the end of the day they do not have anything to show for it. At the end of the these men are not criminals and have not hurt anyone. The government should be ashamed of their actions and the folks in Washington pushing for this crap should be part of the 8.2% unemployment crowd that our country boasts. I don't know how you guys would feel if your countries spent this kind of money but I am рissed about it.

Facepalm.

Um, the "US Government" isn't doing this. Get your facts straight. If all you are going to do is spout the same tired line we hear from Lance, save it. The USADA are pursuing the case in front of them, and it appears they have a significant amount of good evidence. Looks like Lance's goose is cooked. All the "witch hunt" "waste of taxpayer dollars" "etc" "etc" "etc" will not change that. The process will be fair, and give Lance the opportunity to defend and counter all of the evidence and testimony. The fact is that he knows all of it is true, and this will cost a fortune to defend. Lance, and the fraud of his Tour wins are going to be completely discredited. Consider switching sides and avoid the Christmas rush.

 

[Clemson Cycling]

Drug traffickers are not criminals and hurt no one?

Really?

When is the last time the US Government spent $15ish million prosecuting someone that did not kill or steal anything? These guys did not traffic drugs and as much as you hate them they are not criminals. As seen in the past these trials have gone extremely poorly for the USADA. At the end of the day heads need to roll if nothing comes out of this trial. How would you guys feel if your governments spent this kind of money trying to tarnish your nations past sports heroes. I believe that Lance is as guilty as all of the guys he beat but at the end of the day people have to give it up. Are we going to strip his titles and give them to Basso and Ulrich or just wipe the slate clean and say the Tour lacked a champion for a decade.

Facepalm.

Um, the "US Government" isn't doing this. Get your facts straight. If all you are going to do is spout the same tired line we hear from Lance, save it. The USADA are pursuing the case in front of them, and it appears they have a significant amount of good evidence. Looks like Lance's goose is cooked. All the "witch hunt" "waste of taxpayer dollars" "etc" "etc" "etc" will not change that. The process will be fair, and give Lance the opportunity to defend and counter all of the evidence and testimony. The fact is that he knows all of it is true, and this will cost a fortune to defend. Lance, and the fraud of his Tour wins are going to be completely discredited. Consider switching sides and avoid the Christmas rush.

Facepalm back

Who funds the USADA? 90% from Federal Grants sound about right?

They also said this about the Bonds and Clemens trials and they went nowhere.

 

[Ferminal]

The US Government has spent $45 million + of our tax dollars trying to convict Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, and Lance Armstrong. At the end of the day they do not have anything to show for it. At the end of the these men are not criminals and have not hurt anyone. The government should be ashamed of their actions and the folks in Washington pushing for this crap should be part of the 8.2% unemployment crowd that our country boasts. I don't know how you guys would feel if your countries spent this kind of money but I am рissed about it.

Is 0.0003% of GDP worth complaining about?

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

When is the last time the US Government spent $15ish million prosecuting someone that did not kill or steal anything? These guys did not traffic drugs and as much as you hate them they are not criminals. As seen in the past these trials have gone extremely poorly for the USADA. At the end of the day heads need to roll if nothing comes out of this trial. How would you guys feel if your governments spent this kind of money trying to tarnish your nations past sports heroes.

I'd be delighted. Sending out the message that cheating doesn't pay and you will get caught might save the lives of young athletes down the road. You can't put a price on that.

I'd rather the money was spent on that than given up in tax breaks to billionaires, used to bomb the third world, or given to banks that lost all their money and then used to reward bankers for failing in their job.

 

[Anonymous]

When is the last time the US Government spent $15ish million prosecuting someone that did not kill or steal anything? These guys did not traffic drugs and as much as you hate them they are not criminals. As seen in the past these trials have gone extremely poorly for the USADA. At the end of the day heads need to roll if nothing comes out of this trial. How would you guys feel if your governments spent this kind of money trying to tarnish your nations past sports heroes.

How many careers do you think Lance stole? How many young adult men were literally forced to dope to pursue their chosen profession? How many were drummed out of the sport?

Lance trafficked. I don't think there's much doubt about that.

If nothing comes of this it will be because another wealthy dude was able to buy his way out of trouble.

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

Is 0.0003% of GDP worth complaining about?

Plus - If Lance hadn't lied and cheated - the Government wouldn't have had to spend a cent proving that he did.

If you're concerned about taxpayers money being misused, please blame him.

 

[Clemson Cycling]

How many careers do you think Lance stole? How many young adult men were literally forced to dope to pursue their chosen profession? How many we're drummed out of the sport?

Lance trafficked. I don't think there's much doubt about that.

If nothing comes of this it will be because another wealthy dude was able to buy his way out of trouble.

Was it Lance's fault or the sports fault? Don't forget that Eddy Merckx got busted twice and Tom Simpson fell off his bike and died and that was well before Lance. The same is true for baseball. They turned their eye to it for decades in favor of more HR's and higher profits and I do not see any of the administration or coaches on the stand fighting for their freedom. If you want to cut the head off of the snake got after the top guys at the UCI and throw Bud Selig on the stand. As I said I believe that Lance is as guilty as the come but he is a product of the sport around him.

Is 0.0003% of GDP worth complaining about?

Is any amount of misused taxpayer money worth complaining about? $45 million = 1,000 more teachers in US schools. What do you think has a greater impact on society.

 

[MarkvW]

Thanks rr. Your answer neatly leads to the reason for my question.

I'd wondered if the federal case was deliberately parked, allowing the USADA investigation to come out from under the feds' wings; the 2 having gone along in tandem until then.

WADA states that the feds haven't given any information to USADA, I'm sure that's strictly speaking accurate. USADA conducted the interviews etc and the feds sat in - certain information was shared from day 1.

I'm wondering if the federal and USADA investigations were ever totally separate? I'm wondering if maybe the federal investigation reached a point where it couldn't continue without evidence (or, shall we say, was better able to continue with evidence) that only USADA could get - that is, admission of guilt of doping OR a sanction for doping. Once achieved, the federal case could re-start and be back on the road. I'm wondering if that was always the plan.

A federal criminal investigation would gain nothing by waiting for a USADA investigation to continue. The grand jury process is far more powerful than anything the USADA has.

Also, the US has a very significant problem when dealing with the statute of limitations in Lance's case. There is no reason to think that if they were investigating that they would intentionally build further delay into their case.

All the speculation about the termination of the Birotte investigation is apparently based on a report that the investigators were surprised and disappointed by the termination of the investigation. There is no support for the conclusion that the decision was made by "one man." There is no way to evaluate the merits of the decision because the facts gathered in the investigation remain secret. A lot of rampant speculation has been presented in a condescending way ("Ever heard of a sealed indictment?"), so beware of people who pretend to know what really happened (or is happening) in any federal criminal investigation). The fact is that the investigations are really secret.

The feds have apparently neither accepted nor rejected Floyd's qui tam case. It appears that is still on the table.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

The US Government has spent $45 million + of our tax dollars trying to convict Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, and Lance Armstrong. At the end of the day they do not have anything to show for it. At the end of the these men are not criminals and have not hurt anyone. The government should be ashamed of their actions and the folks in Washington pushing for this crap should be part of the 8.2% unemployment crowd that our country boasts. I don't know how you guys would feel if your countries spent this kind of money but I am рissed about it.

Well, the good news that will cheer you up no end is that the Federal government case against Lance was dropped and it is now with the USADA who can take away the cheating dopers victories and legacy at a fraction of the cost.

 

[Race Radio]

The US Government has spent $45 million + of our tax dollars trying to convict Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, and Lance Armstrong.

Link? or did you invent this? I assume you believe the lies of Jonathan Littman who invented the $50 million myth....along with most of the Novitzky myths.

Sports Illustrated reported that BALCO and Bonds cost $6 million, most of that on Bonds. They also took in several millions in fines.

If you are looking for people to blame for these costs look to Bonds, Armstrong, and their expensive teams of paid liars.

 

[Benotti69]

Plus - If Lance hadn't lied and cheated - the Government wouldn't have had to spend a cent proving that he did.

If you're concerned about taxpayers money being misused, please blame him.

Well Armstrong's minions are not going to ask him to open his arms and welcome an investigation to prove is innocence and expect he will assist them in every way possible to ensure minimal cost to joe public, no they want their myth.

No Armstrong tells the Feds they have to fight and need every single resource that joe public must fund to catch him for cheating, doping, fraud, trafficking etc...

USADA has a job to do and they dont waste the small resources on wild goose chases. Better if the public backs them to do their job and do it thoroughly. Whether that is Armstrong or a 1st year rookie.

 

[Clemson Cycling]

I'd be delighted. Sending out the message that cheating doesn't pay and you will get caught might save the lives of young athletes down the road. You can't put a price on that.

I'd rather the money was spent on that than given up in tax breaks to billionaires, used to bomb the third world, or given to banks that lost all their money and then used to reward bankers for failing in their job.

All of this has had such a little effect on young athletes by the way. I coach high school sports and I will be the first to tell you that if kids can get their hands on it they are going to take it. Not to mention the fact that most of this stuff banned by the UCI can be bought at Wal Mart or GNC.

 

[Von Mises]

The US Government has spent $45 million + of our tax dollars trying to convict Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, and Lance Armstrong. At the end of the day they do not have anything to show for it. At the end of the these men are not criminals and have not hurt anyone. The government should be ashamed of their actions and the folks in Washington pushing for this crap should be part of the 8.2% unemployment crowd that our country boasts. I don't know how you guys would feel if your countries spent this kind of money but I am ****ed about it.

I am very much small government guy, but this argument is not good one. Most economists (and they are generally small governement-low taxes supporters) agree that goverments may or may not provide healthcare, may or may not provide social security, but if they fail to provide fair and clear regulations, level playing field and fight against corruption, then we are talking about failed society.

 

[Benotti69]

All of this has had such a little effect on young athletes by the way. I coach high school sports and I will be the first to tell you that if kids can get their hands on it they are going to take it. Not to mention the fact that most of this stuff banned by the UCI can be bought at Wal Mart or GNC.

and what are you doing to prevent or advise against it?

Surely the USADA bringing down Armstrong will send the best message possible out there to help you coach the young and tell them it is not worth it.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

When is the last time the US Government spent $15ish million prosecuting someone that did not kill or steal anything? These guys did not traffic drugs and as much as you hate them they are not criminals. As seen in the past these trials have gone extremely poorly for the USADA. At the end of the day heads need to roll if nothing comes out of this trial. How would you guys feel if your governments spent this kind of money trying to tarnish your nations past sports heroes. I believe that Lance is as guilty as all of the guys he beat but at the end of the day people have to give it up. Are we going to strip his titles and give them to Basso and Ulrich or just wipe the slate clean and say the Tour lacked a champion for a decade.


Facepalm back

Who funds the USADA? 90% from Federal Grants sound about right?

They also said this about the Bonds and Clemens trials and they went nowhere.

Get your facts straight. Prove the government has spent $45 million funding these charges. Not to mention your post reads in a way that suggests that the US Government is PROSECUTING this case. That is either ignorance, willfull ignorance, or an outright lie. You choose. Facepalm indeed.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Was it Lance's fault or the sports fault? Don't forget that Eddy Merckx got busted twice and Tom Simpson fell off his bike and died and that was well before Lance. The same is true for baseball. They turned their eye to it for decades in favor of more HR's and higher profits and I do not see any of the administration or coaches on the stand fighting for their freedom. If you want to cut the head off of the snake got after the top guys at the UCI and throw Bud Selig on the stand. As I said I believe that Lance is as guilty as the come but he is a product of the sport around him.


Is any amount of misused taxpayer money worth complaining about? $45 million = 1,000 more teachers in US schools. What do you think has a greater impact on society.

Seriously, you do realize the slope you are on, and the incredibly easy refutation of your philosophy. Please tell me that living in an organized society, you understand the counterpoint to your line of thinking.

 

[Anonymous]

All of this has had such a little effect on young athletes by the way. I coach high school sports and I will be the first to tell you that if kids can get their hands on it they are going to take it. Not to mention the fact that most of this stuff banned by the UCI can be bought at Wal Mart or GNC.

All of which makes your position regarding Lance even more troubling.

I wonder how many kids dope with PEDS because their role models do?

Kids will be kids, eh? That's sad.

 

[Clemson Cycling]

Well you give them a preseason talk about how bad some of this crap is for your body and talk about how it will not get them anywhere in the sport and copy their parents and email of the same. And the rest is hearsay through the grapevine. High schools sports cannot afford to drug test and you cannot prove anything without one.

 

[Jack Ruby]

According to Yahoo, the Clemens case cost "$2 million-$3 million spent in taxpayer money" - http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-b...ict-not-guilty-six-counts-204828190--mlb.html

 

[barn yard]

Is any amount of misused taxpayer money worth complaining about? $45 million = 1,000 more teachers in US schools. What do you think has a greater impact on society.

i think you will find that the priority would be the 30 tomahawk cruise missiles that $45m would buy

 

[ChewbaccaD]

All of this has had such a little effect on young athletes by the way. I coach high school sports and I will be the first to tell you that if kids can get their hands on it they are going to take it. Not to mention the fact that most of this stuff banned by the UCI can be bought at Wal Mart or GNC.

I coached HS Sports and can tell you that your generalization is so far off base, it makes me wonder how you got your job. Please tell me that you will consider leaving your position as we need people that not only believe that kids can and will make the right decision most of the time, but one who also believes in clean sport.

 

[red_flanders]

Please feel free to debate the facts of the case, vigorously. Please refrain from attacking anyone personally. Thank you.

 

[Clemson Cycling]

Get your facts straight. Prove the government has spent $45 million funding these charges. Not to mention your post reads in a way that suggests that the US Government is PROSECUTING this case. That is either ignorance, willfull ignorance, or an outright lie. You choose. Facepalm indeed.

http://www.dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=2&SubSectionID=2&ArticleID=107828

If you're keeping score, the government is batting nearly zero in its campaign against athletes using illegal drugs. After a nearly seven-year witch hunt which cost taxpayers an estimated $50 million, Barry Bonds was acquitted of perjury. However, prosecutors can claim a moral victory because the jury convicted Bonds of one count of obstruction. That conviction is currently on appeal.