USADA - Armstrong

[Muriel]

Quick question - if the USADA sanction Armstrong, could that lead to the re-opening of the USFDA case? Or is the federal closed closed dead in the water?

 

[henryg]

Quick question - if the USADA sanction Armstrong, could that lead to the re-opening of the USFDA case? Or is the federal closed closed dead in the water?

He was not found innocent. A senior official decided not to move forward with prosecution. That was a surprise decision to the investigators. I don't see them re-opening the investigation unless something that happens with the USADA process makes criminal prosecution a slam dunk. After Bonds and Clemens they are not risking millions without an assured outcome.

 

[Muriel]

I don't see them re-opening the investigation unless something that happens with the USADA process makes criminal prosecution a slam dunk.

Thanks for the quick response. So you're saying it is theoretically possible, that a USADA sanction could re-ignite the federal case and the fed's paperwork hasn't all been metaphorically sealed and consigned to the past.

I didn't know whether after Birotte's announcement the case was dead for the rest of all time.

(There is a relevance to this thread for my question btw).

 

[Race Radio]

Quick question - if the USADA sanction Armstrong, could that lead to the re-opening of the USFDA case? Or is the federal closed closed dead in the water?

When the flood of evidence of what is clearly criminal activity is introduced in multiple legal cases it will be increasingly hard for the Feds to not charge. For now though it is tabled.

 

[Muriel]

Thanks rr. Your answer neatly leads to the reason for my question.

I'd wondered if the federal case was deliberately parked, allowing the USADA investigation to come out from under the feds' wings; the 2 having gone along in tandem until then.

WADA states that the feds haven't given any information to USADA, I'm sure that's strictly speaking accurate. USADA conducted the interviews etc and the feds sat in - certain information was shared from day 1.

I'm wondering if the federal and USADA investigations were ever totally separate? I'm wondering if maybe the federal investigation reached a point where it couldn't continue without evidence (or, shall we say, was better able to continue with evidence) that only USADA could get - that is, admission of guilt of doping OR a sanction for doping. Once achieved, the federal case could re-start and be back on the road. I'm wondering if that was always the plan.

 

[Cloxxki]

Thanks rr. Your answer neatly leads to the reason for my question.

I'd wondered if the federal case was deliberately parked, allowing the USADA investigation to come out from under the feds' wings; the 2 having gone along in tandem until then.

WADA states that the feds haven't given any information to USADA, I'm sure that's strictly speaking accurate. USADA conducted the interviews etc and the feds sat in - certain information was shared from day 1.

I'm wondering if the federal and USADA investigations were ever totally separate? I'm wondering if maybe the federal investigation reached a point where it couldn't continue without evidence (or, shall we say, was better able to continue with evidence) that only USADA could get - that is, admission of guilt of doping OR a sanction for doping. Once achieved, the federal case could re-start and be back on the road. I'm wondering if that was always the plan.

Yes, could USADA's questioning of riders have preceeded the FEDs doing the same? With USADA stating that the FEDs will obviously be allowed access to statements, and were expected to ask again, good reason for the riders to make sure to be consistent and not get end up in a liberty confining situation.
USADA come to action shortly after the FEDs dumped the case, but did they only start it then?

 

[Stingray34]

Hey, look at that rat running across the deck; I think this ship is sinking

 

[Race Radio]

Hey, look at that rat running across the deck; I think this ship is sinking

The glee in Fat Pat's statements are obvious. He cannot wait to ban The Hog.

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

The glee in Fat Pat's statements are obvious. He cannot wait to ban The Hog.

Really? But Pat has always been totally behind Lance - even threatening to sue Floyd....are they trying to make Johan the fall guy for the whole thing?

Won't Wonderboy be enraged by this as it seems like the UCI is sending out a signal that they now know the full story and believe heads will roll....

This is getting very fun.

 

[Cloxxki]

Really? But Pat has always been totally behind Lance - even threatening to sue Floyd....are they trying to make Johan the fall guy for the whole thing?

Won't Wonderboy be enraged by this as it seems like the UCI is sending out a signal that they now know the full story and believe heads will roll....

This is getting very fun.

Their deal may have expired. Either by failing to win a certain race despite all the UCI's support, or just because the golden era was to be an era only, not eternity.

 

[Stingray34]

Really? But Pat has always been totally behind Lance - even threatening to sue Floyd....are they trying to make Johan the fall guy for the whole thing?

Won't Wonderboy be enraged by this as it seems like the UCI is sending out a signal that they now know the full story and believe heads will roll....

This is getting very fun.

The machinations are becoming interesting. Real prisoner's dilemma stuff; it's gonna be everyman for himself. Rats. I just hope Fatty McQuake doesn't weisel out of it, as he's clearly angling to do.

 

[henryg]

I'd wondered if the federal case was deliberately parked, allowing the USADA investigation to come out from under the feds' wings; the 2 having gone along in tandem until then.

The Feds where not charging doping. The criminal activity that they would have to go after was a lot tougher to prove beyond a reasonable doubt when you are facing top flight legal defense. They were not interested in probably getting a conviction... It's an election year, Armstrong is popular, has lots of powerful friends and they already had egg on their face from Bonds and Clements. They have put this behind them.

Unless of course the fall out from all this hands them Armstrong's head on a silver platter with a public happy to see the fraud prosecuted. Then it will be politically the easy decision.

 

[Race Radio]

Really? But Pat has always been totally behind Lance - even threatening to sue Floyd....are they trying to make Johan the fall guy for the whole thing?

Won't Wonderboy be enraged by this as it seems like the UCI is sending out a signal that they now know the full story and believe heads will roll....

This is getting very fun.

Lance has the goods on Pat and Hein, Johan has nothing. JV and Johan are on the top of Pat's list. He hates them.

It looks like Lance cannot stand to be irrelevant and is going to launch the much rumored series of Tri races. He sees a untapped, gullible, market in the Tri geeks. Can't wait to raise their awareness of his awesomeness.

Legal fees

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

Lance has the goods on Pat and Hein, Johan has nothing. JV and Johan are on the top of Pat's list. He hates them.

It looks like Lance cannot stand to be irrelevant and is going to launch the much rumored series of Tri races. He sees a untapped, gullible, market in the Tri geeks. Can't wait to raise their awareness of his awesomeness.

Legal fees

Why does he hate Johan? And how can he hate Johan and protect Lance?

 

[Race Radio]

Why does he hate Johan? And how can he hate Johan and protect Lance?

Breakaway league.

 

[thehog]

Lance has the goods on Pat and Hein, Johan has nothing. JV and Johan are on the top of Pat's list. He hates them.

It looks like Lance cannot stand to be irrelevant and is going to launch the much rumored series of Tri races. He sees a untapped, gullible, market in the Tri geeks. Can't wait to raise their awareness of his awesomeness.

Legal fees

I see the Tri series coming to nothing. To lure the athletes away from the current races you need money, big money. Not going to happen. Also if national federations threaten to ban athletes from competing in non-sanctioned events then they'll all stay away. Just can't see Armstrong getting a 20m+ backer for this. He'll never use his own money.

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

Breakaway league.

Would Lance have been backing Johan on this? If so how much would that have hurt Fat Pat? Might he distance himself and the UCI from Wonderboy soon?

 

[thehog]

Lie; Advertising Copy - Potato; Pot-ah-to...

I would love to see Lance & Co. try and come up with the dates and circumstances of the 500 tests. I mean, he must have a list, right? To make the claim, he must have counted them all very, very accurately.


Right?



I don't know if USADA goes in for pedantry in their rulings, but an evisceration of the 500 claim as an aside or a footnote would be spectacularly amusing.

There was a thread long ago which fairly accurately estimated the number of tests he would have had since 99. I think it got to about 100. There is a significant amount of data to get this number close to reality. He was a long way off from other riders.

 

[Anonymous]

The glee in Fat Pat's statements are obvious. He cannot wait to ban The Hog.

What are the chances of UCI corruption coming to light?

 

[Race Radio]

I see the Tri series coming to nothing. To lure the athletes away from the current races you need money, big money. Not going to happen. Also if national federations threaten to ban athletes from competing in non-sanctioned events then they'll all stay away. Just can't see Armstrong getting a 20m+ backer for this. He'll never use his own money.

I agree, it will be tough and expensive.....but maybe he already has a sucker on the hook to fund it?

This will not be about luring athletes from other races, this is about getting the groupies to buy a pair of running shoes and a Speedo. Newbies. The crashes should be spectacular.

Of course it could all come to nothing. Failure has been Wonderboy's specialty for the last few years.

 

[Race Radio]

What are the chances of UCI corruption coming to light?

I expect some interesting stories about Hein but in the end not much will stick

 

[Clemson Cycling]

The US Government has spent $45 million + of our tax dollars trying to convict Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, and Lance Armstrong. At the end of the day they do not have anything to show for it. At the end of the these men are not criminals and have not hurt anyone. The government should be ashamed of their actions and the folks in Washington pushing for this crap should be part of the 8.2% unemployment crowd that our country boasts. I don't know how you guys would feel if your countries spent this kind of money but I am рissed about it.

 

[Anonymous]

I expect some interesting stories about Hein but in the end not much will stick

It will be a bummer to see Pat walk away from this without a few black eyes. Without the UCI the story of Lance never happens.

 

[red_flanders]

Let's move off of McQuaid, new Tri leagues, etc. and remain on topic please. Thanks.

 

[Anonymous]

The US Government has spent $45 million + of our tax dollars trying to convict Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, and Lance Armstrong. At the end of the day they do not have anything to show for it. At the end of the these men are not criminals and have not hurt anyone. The government should be ashamed of their actions and the folks in Washington pushing for this crap should be part of the 8.2% unemployment crowd that our country boasts. I don't know how you guys would feel if your countries spent this kind of money but I am ****ed about it.

Drug traffickers are not criminals and hurt no one?

Really?