USADA - Armstrong

[Turner29]

You think the police sends suspects an envelope with a summary of the evidence against them before summoning them to an interview?

Thank you.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Oh yes, the USADA is being so fair and reasonable. Hey, we are charging a bunch of guys with conspiracy and doping, you have 4 weeks to respond to us, although we aren't going to reveal any details to the parties accused, or we will suspend you forever!!!!

Yes, USADA is so reasonable. Clown operation.

I think you may misunderstand the ADA's process and how nicely it actually parallels the criminal justice system in most coutries. For example:

The police gather evidence and when they are satisfied that you have broken the law, they arrest you. The USADA has collected evidence of a doping violation. They don't arrest you, but they do notify you that you've been caught.

When sitting in jail, the police do not hand over all their case files for you to sift through. Instead, after a short time you are given the chance to plead guilty or not guilty. Likewise, Lance has currently been given time plus a lengthy extension to essentially plead guilty or not guilty (accept the charges or request arbitration).

There is a delay in Lance's case because he is asking a judge to decide whether the USADA has the jurisdiction to handle these charges. That should be wrapped up soon after today's court hearing. This is not typical, but could possibly happen in a criminal case as well (i.e., an Alaskan court shouldn't be responsible for prosecuting a speeding ticket in Arkansas).

If Lance pleads not guilty/asks for arbitration then there will be a trial/arbitration hearing scheduled for some time in the future. In both the criminal case and the doping violation case the attorneys from both sides will only now get access to all the evidence. They will also be given enough time to evaluate the evidence and prepare for trial.

Once the trial/hearing is over, either side has the right to appeal. In the criminal case, this is to a higher court. It's possible for this to happen ad nauseum until it reaches the supreme court. In the case of a doping violation there is only one higher court. The CAS, based in Switzerland.

Really, there's no difference between what WADA does and what the criminal justice system does. The rules and procedures are different, but that's about it.

John Swanson

 

[Hugh Januss]

You really do not understand the USADA process or even a standard criminal one. For example, when I person is charged with a crime, they are not first given all the evidence collected against them during investigation, then to decide whether to plead innocent or guilty.

They make a decision and a plea. If they plead guilty or even no contest, the case is closed and punishment is accepted, without seeing any evidence. If they plead not guilty, the case goes to trial where evidence and witnesses are presented.

Right now, the USADA is merely charging Armstrong with various doping infractions based upon their investigation, evidence indicates Armstrong committed various infractions. All he need to is either "plead guilty" and accept the punishment or "plead not guilty" and accept arbitration, where all the evidence collected against him will be presented.

There is nothing unfair about the process. I truly wish people would stop posting "fairness" statements without understanding the USADA process and how it very much parallels the criminal court process.

He doesn't care about an explanation. What he is really doing is placing both hands over his ears, stamping his little feet, and shouting over and over "it's not true about Lance".

 

[Race Radio]

USADA's process's are very clear. They have been used for years in thousands of cases.

Armstrong and the UCI have introduced chaos into the process then babble "Look how chaotic USADA is!"

Their games are tiresome

 

[Maxiton]

And he knows who a lot of us are...

I have thought of this before, and it is not reassuring. Hopefully Lancey-poo and his hired thugs have enough on their plate these days to keep them from going after hater internet posters.

I wouldn't worry about that. I wouldn't worry about it at all.

First of all, it would be difficult and in most cases extremely difficult for someone to learn your identity, merely on the basis of your postings here. (Unless of course you've been lulled into posting a picture of yourself or other details, in other threads.) The only detail about you that this site requires, in order to post here, is an email address. And that is held in confidence on a server which, granted, could be hacked, but who says your email address has to contain your real name?

Secondly, and most important, you have the protection of law. Anyone can attack you at any time, for any reason or no reason, but if they do they will be subject to severe criminal and civil penalties. The payoff for finding out who you are and then attacking you - a total, if opinionated, nobody - would be almost nil. The penalty for doing so, on the other hand, would be huge. Under those circumstances, even a Mafia kingpin wouldn't bother.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

He doesn't care about an explanation. What he is really doing is placing both hands over his ears, stamping his little feet, and shouting over and over "it's not true about Lance".

I must admit to being surprised that anyone responded to the rant let alone give a clear explanation to it, as it will be ignored.

It was almost McQuaidesque in its tone.

 

[thehog]

I think you may misunderstand the ADA's process and how nicely it actually parallels the criminal justice system in most coutries. For example:

The police gather evidence and when they are satisfied that you have broken the law, they arrest you. The USADA has collected evidence of a doping violation. They don't arrest you, but they do notify you that you've been caught.

When sitting in jail, the police do not hand over all their case files for you to sift through. Instead, after a short time you are given the chance to plead guilty or not guilty. Likewise, Lance has currently been given time plus a lengthy extension to essentially plead guilty or not guilty (accept the charges or request arbitration).

There is a delay in Lance's case because he is asking a judge to decide whether the USADA has the jurisdiction to handle these charges. That should be wrapped up soon after today's court hearing. This is not typical, but could possibly happen in a criminal case as well (i.e., an Alaskan court shouldn't be responsible for prosecuting a speeding ticket in Arkansas).

If Lance pleads not guilty/asks for arbitration then there will be a trial/arbitration hearing scheduled for some time in the future. In both the criminal case and the doping violation case the attorneys from both sides will only now get access to all the evidence. They will also be given enough time to evaluate the evidence and prepare for trial.

Once the trial/hearing is over, either side has the right to appeal. In the criminal case, this is to a higher court. It's possible for this to happen ad nauseum until it reaches the supreme court. In the case of a doping violation there is only one higher court. The CAS, based in Switzerland.

Really, there's no difference between what WADA does and what the criminal justice system does. The rules and procedures are different, but that's about it.

John Swanson

Excellent post.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

To take my analogy a bit further: I think it's hilarious that Lance's objection over jurisdiction is more along the lines of "I should be tried in Arkansas for my speeding ticket in Alaska because I have an Arkansas driver's license". It's just so ludicrous.

John Swanson

 

[DirtyWorks]

I wouldn't worry about that. I wouldn't worry about it at all.

I second this. To get what they would need would require violation of Federal law in the U.S. I think as long as you are peripheral to the cycling industry, anyone is fine. It's when your livelihood is tied into cycling like the Andreau's that things get difficult on many levels. If you've spent any time in the industry you realize how small it is, even on an international level.

All that said, Internet users leave the equivalent of fingerprints behind in most cases. Since "internet stuff" is a field I have expertise in, I'm always open for questions in this area via PM.

 

[MacRoadie]

I have thought of this before, and it is not reassuring. Hopefully Lancey-poo and his hired thugs have enough on their plate these days to keep them from going after hater internet posters.

It's about who you are or who you know outside the internet...

 

[Turner29]

USADA's process's are very clear. They have been used for years in thousands of cases.

Armstrong and the UCI have introduced chaos into the process then babble "Look how chaotic USADA is!"

Their games are tiresome

Yes, the Abu-Jamal Defense -- make a mockery of the process and proceedings then claim it is unfair.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Yes, the Abu-Jamal Defense -- make a mockery of the process and proceedings then claim it is unfair.

Yip - I think that's the only option they have at the moment.
Unfortunately, this is going to be a long process as LA/UCI exhaust every legal avenue but when the chips fall they will claim that they never would have been sanctioned under an American court.
But it's no longer 2005 and there will be few who care to hear what they say.

 

[thehog]

Yes, the Abu-Jamal Defense -- make a mockery of the process and proceedings then claim it is unfair.

"cause célèbre"

 

[python]

I don't necessarily agree with this. Like I said, it's going to be a detailed order granting (or denying) the motion. He's got other cases on his docket (including criminal ones). He needs time with his law clerk to hammer out the order, and make sure it's bullet proof in this high-profile case. I've seen federal judges take months to rule on a motion to dismiss, not because it was a close call, but simply because they were backlogged.

i second that and perhaps a tactically wise move that any smart person, not necessarily a lawyer, should have made.

an extension granted before being told or requested by the judge shows respect for the court. imagine usada plays hard ball with armstrong and hands a verdict the coming monday w/o waiting for the federal judge's decision. that even if not ill-conceived, puts pressure on the judge's timing.
not wise at all with any judge particularly this one. moreover, it would be a pr disaster if the judge rules against usada. travis is too brilliant a player to make such elementary mistakes.

Here's the question though. If USADA were to hand the case over to UCI, does the UCI have any deadline to take action? At what point can USADA appeal to CAS for the UCI's inaction?

it's too improbable but let's say it did happen. if memory serves me right, i think the uci's own results management window is very generous. recall, they were sitting on contador's case for months before handing it over to spain. even if there was a legitimate time limit somewhere in the rules, the uci would do anything in its power to suppress it because they themselves are alleged to cover up a positive.

i can not seriously entertain any other reason the uci is so adamant about taking over this case,

 

[mewmewmew13]

You really do not understand the USADA process or even a standard criminal one. For example, when I person is charged with a crime, they are not first given all the evidence collected against them during investigation, then to decide whether to plead innocent or guilty.

They make a decision and a plea. If they plead guilty or even no contest, the case is closed and punishment is accepted, without seeing any evidence. If they plead not guilty, the case goes to trial where evidence and witnesses are presented.

Right now, the USADA is merely charging Armstrong with various doping infractions based upon their investigation, evidence indicates Armstrong committed various infractions. All he need to is either "plead guilty" and accept the punishment or "plead not guilty" and accept arbitration, where all the evidence collected against him will be presented.

There is nothing unfair about the process. I truly wish people would stop posting "fairness" statements without understanding the USADA process and how it very much parallels the criminal court process.

It's called de-railing.

It is so along the lines of Armstrong's M.O. to delay upon delay....

 

[Race Radio]

I second this. To get what they would need would require violation of Federal law in the U.S. I think as long as you are peripheral to the cycling industry, anyone is fine. It's when your livelihood is tied into cycling like the Andreau's that things get difficult on many levels. If you've spent any time in the industry you realize how small it is, even on an international level.

All that said, Internet users leave the equivalent of fingerprints behind in most cases. Since "internet stuff" is a field I have expertise in, I'm always open for questions in this area via PM.

It is rather easy if they pay somebody for your identity because they are desperate.

 

[Maxiton]

i second that and perhaps a tactically wise move that any smart person, not necessarily a lawyer, should have made.

an extension granted before being told or requested by the judge shows respect for the court. imagine usada plays hard ball with armstrong and hands a verdict the coming monday w/o waiting for the federal judge's decision. that even if not ill-conceived, puts pressure on the judge's timing.
not wise at all with any judge particularly this one. moreover, it would be a pr disaster if the judge rules against usada. travis is too brilliant a player to make such elementary mistakes.

it's too improbable but let's say it did happen. if memory serves me right, i think the uci's own results management window is very generous. recall, they were sitting on contador's case for months before handing it over to spain. even if there was a legitimate time limit somewhere in the rules, the uci would do anything in its power to suppress it because they themselves are alleged to cover up a positive.

i can not seriously entertain any other reason the uci is so adamant about taking over this case,

Oh, given the degree of long term corruption we're talking about, and the resulting arrogance and stupidity - and don't forget greed - there could be lots of reasons. Lots.

Imagine if LA has direct evidence of UCI or McQuaid/Verbruggen involvement in drug trafficking, for instance. That would be explosive, 'ey? Imagine if he has evidence of many positives that were covered up, or of direct, personal cash bribes throughout UCI. Imagine if he has evidence of riders being sabotaged by people in and around UCI - Landis and Contador come to mind (not that either of them is innocent in general). And then imagine all those possibilities we can't imagine - and will be shocked by, if and when we hear of them.

There are all kinds of real, possible, probable and even likely possibilities. One thing's for sure: Armstrong knows where the bodies are buried. (Figuratively speaking, of course. )

 

[Maxiton]

It is rather easy if they pay somebody for your identity because they are desperate.

Don't they have your identity, RR? Has it done them any good?

 

[Turner29]

Oh, given the degree of long term corruption we're talking about, and the resulting arrogance and stupidity - and don't forget greed - there could be lots of reasons. Lots.

Imagine if LA has direct evidence of UCI or McQuaid/Verbruggen involvement in drug trafficking, for instance. That would be explosive, 'ey? Imagine if he has evidence of many positives that were covered up, or of direct, personal cash bribes throughout UCI. Imagine if he has evidence of riders being sabotaged by people in and around UCI - Landis and Contador come to mind (not that either of them is innocent in general). And then imagine all those possibilities we can't imagine - and will be shocked by, if and when we hear of them.

There are all kinds of real, possible, probable and even likely possibilities. One thing's for sure: Armstrong knows where the bodies are buried. (Figuratively speaking, of course. )

Given Armstrong's sociopathic nature, in the end I could see him turning evidence against the UCI. Or, perhaps an even wilder defense that the UCI somehow "extorted" him into doping...

 

[thehog]

UCI president Pat McQuaid wants independent review of USADA case before proceeding; "isn't trying to save Armstrong's skin".

Full story soon @ VeloNews.

 

[Race Radio]

Don't they have your identity, RR? Has it done them any good?

It has done a great job of proving they are bitter, obsessive, bullies

 

[mewmewmew13]

Given Armstrong's sociopathic nature, in the end I could see him turning evidence against the UCI. Or, perhaps an even wilder defense that the UCI somehow "extorted" him into doping...

It would make sense in his mind that if he could initiate , expose and then inflate the corruption in the UCI in the hopes it would make his own crimes 'pale' in comparison....apply the 'deflection' ploy of which he is the master.

 

[mewmewmew13]

UCI president Pat McQuaid wants independent review of USADA case before proceeding; "isn't trying to save Armstrong's skin".

Full story soon @ VeloNews.

omg...more sh!tstorm coming

 

[DirtyWorks]

UCI president Pat McQuaid wants independent review of USADA case before proceeding; "isn't trying to save Armstrong's skin".

Full story soon @ VeloNews.

Proving once again that VN is the UCI's codpiece. The editor will probably have lots of trouble getting it into a sensible narrative. Definitely out of the realm of an intern.

It's going to be a doozy. Baghdad Bob will finally have some competition. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Saeed_al-Sahhaf Make the analogy complete Pat and do an interview every day. Please!

 

[Maxiton]

Given Armstrong's sociopathic nature, in the end I could see him turning evidence against the UCI. Or, perhaps an even wilder defense that the UCI somehow "extorted" him into doping...

That might actually be a defense. I think the McQuaid/Verbruggen position is: we want you GC leaders to give us a good show. We know that you know what you have to do to make that happen. And if it doesn't happen, your career in GT racing will be short.

It's a short step from that - tacitly encouraging doping, even demanding it - a short step from that, to making a little profit on the side, saying to top GC riders, "When you buy, you'll buy from these approved vendors" (from whom Mc/V get a cut, of course). (Not saying this is the case, of course, because how would we know? It's only a possibility. Once you're corrupt, you're only limited by your own capabilities, and those of your associates.)