USADA - Armstrong

[ChewbaccaD]

I know what's going to happen.

Hog, nothing but love coming from me, but please don't pontificate about what that will be...the cosmos seems to like to thwart your best laid plans. Nothing personal.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

But you are celebrating by misinterpreting that the Fed investigation was dropped through lack of evidence to prosecute and not the real cause - political intervention arising from Livestrong's hard fought funds being misdirected to create a favor for Armstrong.

But there could have been another reason which may now appear to be probable.

In February I wrote:

Props on that prediction. Now if YOU want to pontificate on the outcome, I will feel much better than if the hog does so. Again, nothing personal hog, just observing the rhythm of the cosmos man, the rhythm of the cosmos.

 

[MarkvW]

To use another football term, the Feds merely punted.

However, after all is said and done, I do not think they are going to prosecute him, one reason being that juries are easily manipulated -- re: USA vs. Clemmens.

Being humiliated, stripped of 7 Tour de France titles, paying back millions, plus fees and interest to SCA Promotions, and countless other civil suits will be enough punishment in their eyes.

Armstrong has definitely been humiliated to a certain degree.
I have zero confidence in title-stripping, because I have zero confidence in the UCI or the ASO.
Countless civil suits? I'll believe them when I see them.

I'll just be happy if USADA completes their arbitration and produces a result. If the facts come out, then that is icing on the cupcake.

 

[Digger]

I know what's going to happen.

So do I Hog...we're amazing though. Looks like we made it!!

 

[MacRoadie]

If the facts come out, then that is icing on the cupcake.

For me, THAT is the cupcake.

 

[JA.Tri]

Has the irony been lost on the lot of you.....?? Jeez, what's a guy gotta do to get a laugh around here......

Hi I think I got it, Tyler H... hence (Yes D-Q ) my reference to being booted out....the lovely was referencing the irony.

 

[mewmewmew13]

how was his reception by the crowd at Leadville ?

Standing ovation.
Humble, talked of race and Weins......

I did not probe deeper...my friends husband has bought the "Carmichael training plans"....so not much more I can add....:fp

 

[BroDeal]

I'll just be happy if USADA completes their arbitration and produces a result. If the facts come out, then that is icing on the cupcake.

I am the opposite. I want everything public. Popular sentiment will take care of the rest.

I have lost faith in the the ability of the system to produce a result in the Armstrong case. I fully expect the judge to find a way to throw a spanner in the works and then the UCI to bury any proceedings.

 

[Turner29]

Armstrong has definitely been humiliated to a certain degree.
I have zero confidence in title-stripping, because I have zero confidence in the UCI or the ASO.
Countless civil suits? I'll believe them when I see them.

I'll just be happy if USADA completes their arbitration and produces a result. If the facts come out, then that is icing on the cupcake.

I believe the USADA has authority to strip him of titles, no?

 

[BroDeal]

I expect that soon the UCI or Armstrong's goons will attack the USADA for not sanctioning Vaughters. If JV told everything to the USADA in 2004 then he could have been sanctioned. The USADA will have to explain why they sat on JV's confession for eight years. This can be spun easily by Armstrong and the UCI.

Does anyone remember the "cyclileaks" stuff that came out about JV? It seemed to be someone from Landis' camp griping about the USADA pursuing Landis to the ends of the earth while ignoring JV's confession from a couple of years earlier.

 

[BroDeal]

I believe the USADA has authority to strip him of titles, no?

Will the UCI and ASO do anything but pay lip service to the stripping?

 

[JA.Tri]

Confession vs Omerta

The anomalies of justice/retribution.

Hypothetical: Two athletes dope in 2004? 2009? One (A) admits doping some time prior to now. The other (B) denies, dissembles and otherwise avoids sanction. B points to A as lacking credibility and further demands the sanctioning that B has, to date, evaded.

This all seems warped. Absolutely justifiable, but warped none the less.

The above discussion on JV LA etc, has prompted me to mentally revisit...then put my discomfort/anxiety/ anger/frustration in words...sorry for blasting OT.

 

[MarkvW]

I believe the USADA has authority to strip him of titles, no?

I think so. But . . .

The UCI has already breached its deal with WADA. Unfortunately, unless something changes, I expect more of the same from the UCI (and maybe USAC too). I expect that the UCI might eliminate the WADA/USADA connection.

I expect nothing but the worst from McQuaid and his corrupt bunch.

 

[MarkvW]

I am the opposite. I want everything public. Popular sentiment will take care of the rest.

I have lost faith in the the ability of the system to produce a result in the Armstrong case. I fully expect the judge to find a way to throw a spanner in the works and then the UCI to bury any proceedings.

I still think that the case will be dismissed.

 

[python]

let's do one step at a time.

the priority now is to get the arbitration hearing. in less than 10 days we should know.

the title stripping, when we get there, will require cas involvement one way or another... the uci will be irrelevant .

i feel the case will almost be on autopilot once the arbitration gets going.

 

[Animal]

Mellow Johnny's Bike Shop, Austin TX. Or might that be rubbing it in a bit too much?

Too far. The Limes Cafe, Old Rufford Road, Bilsthorpe, Nottinghamshire NG22 8TH on any Saturday morning!

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I don't think the judge will toss it, but I agree with everything else BroDeal wrote. If the Judge does stop it, the UCI will indeed bury it.

So, I don't trust the UCI, at all, I don't trust the ASO, I don't actually trust the courts to do what's right either. And I fear USADA will ultimately be too handicapped to present all evidence at a hearing, and the hearings, arbitration and lawsuits will drag on forever, years. So, I want it all leaked to the public, all of it. Let us sort it out for ourselves if he doped or not. We can have both the Game of Shadows (Mark Fainaru-Wada and Lance Williams book on Barry Bonds, from leaked GJ docs) version, and a Wikileaks version of everything on a website for all to read.

 

[DirtyWorks]

I expect that the UCI might eliminate the WADA/USADA connection.

The IOC will let them know that WADA compliance is required to be an Olympic sport. If this reaches into the IOC like it should with Hein being a made man and all, they may just kick cycling out anyway. But no one bothers the IOC about the IAAF, so I don't see why they would bother with the UCI.

That is not to say the UCI would not have options should they manage to wrestle it out of USADA's grasp. They make stuff up as they go along for the ASO/big-money side of the sport with no consequences, so they can figure something out if they get that lucky.

You guys realize as symbolic the USADA arbitration is, it's the first step. It's not even the close to the best event. Bigger and better litigation starts as soon as a decision leaves CAS. That's assuming CAS returns something with some legitimacy.

 

[Maxiton]

I don't think the judge will toss it, but I agree with everything else BroDeal wrote. If the Judge does stop it, the UCI will indeed bury it.

So, I don't trust the UCI, at all, I don't trust the ASO, I don't actually trust the courts to do what's right either. And I fear USADA will ultimately be too handicapped to present all evidence at a hearing, and the hearings, arbitration and lawsuits will drag on forever, years. So, I want it all leaked to the public, all of it. Let us sort it out for ourselves if he doped or not. We can have both the Game of Shadows (Mark Fainaru-Wada and Lance Williams book on Barry Bonds, from leaked GJ docs) version, and a Wikileaks version of everything on a website for all to read.

The IOC will let them know that WADA compliance is required to be an Olympic sport. If this reaches into the IOC like it should with Hein being a made man and all, they may just kick cycling out anyway. But no one bothers the IOC about the IAAF, so I don't see why they would bother with the UCI.

That is not to say the UCI would not have options should they manage to wrestle it out of USADA's grasp. They make stuff up as they go along for the ASO/big-money side of the sport with no consequences, so they can figure something out if they get that lucky.

You guys realize as symbolic the USADA arbitration is, it's the first step. It's not even the close to the best event. Bigger and better litigation starts as soon as a decision leaves CAS. That's assuming CAS returns something with some legitimacy.

I agree with both you guys. There's a very real possibility the judge will rule in Armstrong's favor, or, if he doesn't, that he will be overturned on some sort of appeal. There is also a real possibility, even assuming the court cases are favorable to USADA, that the latter will be rendered somehow powerless. So many points of possible corruption. All kinds of things can go foul, up to and including CAS.

If it gets past CAS and it's still on, then it's on for real. Until then I'm in wait and see mode.

 

[Cavalier]

You're enormously overstating the possibility that Sparks will rule that way.

 

[veganrob]

I expect that soon the UCI or Armstrong's goons will attack the USADA for not sanctioning Vaughters. If JV told everything to the USADA in 2004 then he could have been sanctioned. The USADA will have to explain why they sat on JV's confession for eight years. This can be spun easily by Armstrong and the UCI.

Does anyone remember the "cyclileaks" stuff that came out about JV? It seemed to be someone from Landis' camp griping about the USADA pursuing Landis to the ends of the earth while ignoring JV's confession from a couple of years earlier.

It is a very sticky situation I think for USADA and all that are testifying against LA. WIll they be sanctioned in some way? Lance will be arguing that. As for JV, they can just ban him from riding for 8 years or whatever like they did with Jan. Riis, no penalties. There are some precedents it seems. Did Ulrich get some other ban as far as being associated with racing? I am not aware of any. Or Tyler. Floyd. They all did their time.

 

[Cobblestoned]

Hehe
No. I go crazy when I get around too much yellow and black

What about all of you meeting in Texas, jumping into dead man's hole totally naked and then just leave all the beer you people drank, leave it all there as a testament of anger ?
It's then called and sold as "Pißwasser" I guess.
Ok, ok. No panic.
The party will be cancelled - like all others were before.

PS: In case it will happen after all, I will call Lance to empty the hole and just leave a few inches of water in there. Should be no problem for him. Just for the smooth landing and to keep the water even warmer.

 

[sniper]

It is a very sticky situation I think for USADA and all that are testifying against LA. WIll they be sanctioned in some way? Lance will be arguing that. As for JV, they can just ban him from riding for 8 years or whatever like they did with Jan. Riis, no penalties. There are some precedents it seems. Did Ulrich get some other ban as far as being associated with racing? I am not aware of any. Or Tyler. Floyd. They all did their time.

I'm not sure. LA demanding they be banned equals LA lending credibility to their story. So that might backfire.

 

[python]

i was reading and considering the wada rebuke letter to the uci again.

the language there is so resolute and determined that the only conclusion comes to mind is - 'we will not let you uci shysters get away with this'

so how can wada keep the pressure on and move the case forward if the federal judge sides with armstrong ??

one clue could be found in this statement:

UCI’s refusal to cooperate with USADA appear to me to be against article 23.2.3 of the Code.

this is a veiled threat of non-compliance but wrapped in the very soft and thick cloth. the uci already rejected it in verbiest's indignant writing that accused wada of anti cycling and anti armstrong sentiment.

what's wada's next move ? i wish i knew but i suspect that wada lawyers are consulting around as to filing a formal charge of non-compliance...this would be a huge political step that requires very careful multi-level coordination with ponderous ioc brass. thus it is a long shot.

can wada do something else and quicker ?

again, this is a pure speculation on my part but i believe there is an indirect procedural mechanism that would be entirely based on the code provisions and that would allow wada to take the case to cas directly even if the american judge blocked usada.

what is this mechanism ?

again, that's for wada and usada lawyers to answer but i speculate it would be based on a counter-intuitive if not a crasy idea - usada officially drops charges and wada not happy with the outcome, exercises it's many times tried appeal right and files with cas


how is that for crasy ?

 

[Cloxxki]

Is there the risk that WADA will pull the plug on the UCI and denounce then a non-WADA federation, effectively opening themselves to a new federation to govern WADA-compliant cycling?
Lance would then throw all of the UCI, and all national federations under the bus, and we'd all be non-WADA athletes from one day to the other.
A new Global Cycling Federaion would be needed and national federations can decide whether or not to join in on more strict doping-regulalated sports as WADA will surely require.