USADA - Armstrong

[Benotti69]

No, he can ask that the case go directly to CAS. This has been covered before. In fact, USADA has already suggested that the case go directly to CAS, but they need LA's consent for this.



I agree completely. I think posts like those, when they don’t simply repeat what someone else has already said (and even that’s OK, as people are constantly popping into this thread without having read everything posted earlier) are the meat of this thread. Chewie had one I think yesterday that really clarified some issues for me. And even if you think someone’s post is incorrect, the process by which others debate it can be very illuminating.



Definitely. This is why I don’t understand people who “fear” LA won’t go to arbitration. I would be very happy if he didn’t and had to swallow all those sanctions. But I’m sure his lawyers know that there are some very debatable issues on the table. (A crucial one that I think QS missed is the question of jurisdiction, viz., does USADA have it for the years before UCI signed on to WADA protocols?) I don’t think he’ll walk, but I think the odds are not so good that he will lose all his titles. Let’s keep in mind that a decision like that would be absolutely unprecedented.



This is a good point, but is negated to some extent by the “kangaroo court” defense. I.e., if you are up against a kangaroo court, then of course you use whatever slick tricks you can to combat it.

Don’t underestimate the number of people who buy this concept, who believe that USADA’s proceedings are illegitimate. After all, these people apparently include top officials of the UCI

Those of you who aren’t Americans may not be familiar with a famous saying from one of our greatest Presidents, Abraham Lincoln:

This is unpalatable to Armstrong. He will not give up anything.

If he loses 1 title because he was proved to have doped then no one will believe that he won the others without dope.

Everyone knows that, if he won one on dope then he doped for them all.

He will never spin that away. The blind followers will believe anything he says, but he wants the world to believe him.

 

[Jeremiah]

This is a good point, but is negated to some extent by the “kangaroo court” defense. I.e., if you are up against a kangaroo court, then of course you use whatever slick tricks you can to combat it.

Don’t underestimate the number of people who buy this concept, who believe that USADA’s proceedings are illegitimate. After all, these people apparently include top officials of the UCI

Those of you who aren’t Americans may not be familiar with a famous saying from one of our greatest Presidents, Abraham Lincoln:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublespeak

Doublespeak is language that deliberately disguises, distorts, or reverses the meaning of words

 

[RichWalk]

As per several above I dont profess to understand under the legal jargon/details but its fascinating and most welcome.

Simplistically, what are the chances that if it goes pubic (I understand that to mean arbitration??) and it looks pretty certain Lance is going to be discredited that he will go for the UCI and its ring leaders?

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

How do you remember this thread in 2010 if you only joined in 2011? What banned user named were you using then?

A curious question I'd like to know the answer to as well. Rarely does someone lurk a year before posting. And it seems extraordinary that one would lurk so much, that they would remember specific discussions they supposedly took no part in.

His booze intake alone seems to be escalating. After Birotte halted the fed case, Armstrong admitted to getting hammered.

Didn't Floyd start to go down that same path before imploding? Though in Floyd's case, he had a conscience at his core eating away at him to be a good person.

What's at Lance's core?

 

[MarkvW]

As per several above I dont profess to understand under the legal jargon/details but its fascinating and most welcome.

Simplistically, what are the chances that if it goes pubic (I understand that to mean arbitration??) and it looks pretty certain Lance is going to be discredited that he will go for the UCI and its ring leaders?

Lance decides if the arbitration will be public.

 

[RichWalk]

Lance decides if the arbitration will be public.

Arh right, many thanks for the clarification

 

[Race Radio]

Or maybe you can look at it from the other side. Why are so many people out to get him and prove something? The egos and holier than tho' attitude to justify the hunt against him for years now is just as bizarre and shows abnormal psychological traits as LA.

Wouldn't you agree? Talking about appearances and obsession. Half the Clinic posters are just as obsessed along with USADA and the Feds to prove his guilt. I find this behavior as OCD and ego driven as Lance's.

This intense hunt by various groups, the Feds and USADA has probably put more time, money and resources into proving allegations against LA as they put into hunting Bin Laden for 10yrs.

When you say years, you really mean the last 2 years right?

The UCI was in charge of testing for most of his career. They did nothing. They actively covered up his doping.

USADA should ignore over a dozen direct witnesses? Why?

 

[Race Radio]

His booze intake alone seems to be escalating. After Birotte halted the fed case, Armstrong admitted to getting hammered. There are the recent years of drunk texting/tweeting/taunting in a manner that no other explanation really fits. There's the "pounded a few" apology in Philadelphia.

And Telluride....and drunken, rambling calls to journalists.

 

[DomesticDomestique]

A curious question I'd like to know the answer to as well. Rarely does someone lurk a year before posting. And it seems extraordinary that one would lurk so much, that they would remember specific discussions they supposedly took no part in.

I strongly disagree, I lurk A LOT, but don't usually have a comment. I come here to read and gain info. I don't have inside information on most topics and I'm not a lawyer or a biochemist, so I don't have a lot to add. I only ask the occasional question or make a statement when I have a strong opinion on something, and thus I'm not even a "senior member."

Look at the view counts on some of these threads vs the post counts, then consider that most posters are posting multiple times per view. Views to posts on this thread is over 100:1, not counting posters who make multiple posts per visit. Figure that the average poster makes at least 2 posts per visit, and we're at 200:1 lurkers : posters. Don't underestimate how many people are doing what I'm doing. On a side note, that stat makes the "small echo chamber" argument unfounded.

 

[QuickStepper]

. . . I’m sure his lawyers know that there are some very debatable issues on the table. (A crucial one that I think QS missed is the question of jurisdiction, viz., does USADA have it for the years before UCI signed on to WADA protocols?) I don’t think he’ll walk, but I think the odds are not so good that he will lose all his titles. Let’s keep in mind that a decision like that would be absolutely unprecedented.

I don't think I missed the issue of jurisdiction and certainly didn't mean to exclude it as one of the main preliminary threshold issues that need to be determined by the arbitrators. I agree with you completely that the question of the jurisdiction of USADA to adjudicate matters occuring in years when there was no WADA Code (or USADA for that matter) is a threshold issue that, depending on how it's resolved, will affect the outcome of the rest of the case.

 

[mewmewmew13]

I'm sure she enjoys her publicity. She puts out a blog, like about a million others. It was certainly creepy HOW Lance tweeted her, but what is more surprising is that he DID tweet her - one of the most famous, rich and powerful athletes in Texas personally contacting a blogger

Lance must still be using his blackberry

We have ALL chosen a high profile target, but we lurk in the lair of the Clinic surrounded by fellow denizens, twelve apostles and the odd fanboy.

Anyway, the point is she has an opinion just like all of us here, she expresses that opinion on her blog while we choose to do so here. Again, that takes courage when we ALL know that Lance is a vindictive sociopath who has gone after Emma, David, Betsy, Frankie, Floyd, Tyler...

She is fighting the good fight. Instead of having a pop at her, support her. You don't have to agree with her.

Back on topic, Lance is a sociopath, he will not respond logically or heed legal advice. His choices are extremely simple, agree to arbitration of not.

If he does not agree to arbitration, he will be found guilty of the instances listed on the charge letter, namely a conspiracy of team based doping and pedaling dating back to 1998 and lose all titles. USADA will probably publish a full and frank Fact. UCI will have to follow the USADA or be booted from the Olympics, which would lead to their complete destruction. He could face civil litigation. He could face Federal prosecution for perjury and fraud.

If he does agree to arbitration, he can opt for public or private hearing. The most likely scenario is he will be found guilty of the instances listed on the charge letter, namely a conspiracy of team based doping and pedaling dating back to 1998 and lose all titles. USADA will probably publish a full and frank Fact. UCI will have to follow the USADA or be booted from the Olympics, which would lead to their complete destruction. He could face civil litigation. He could face Federal prosecution for perjury and fraud.

Either way all the evidence will leak out, it always does.

It seems to me he is screwed either way, so expect an unusual response.

And because he is a sociopath, he will not go quietly into the night, he will go down kicking and screaming, taking everybody with him - Hog, Tailwind, USAC, UCI, Ferrari, Del Moral the lot. And all his team mates on USPS, Disco and Astana.

I wasn't 'having a pop at her.'

The earlier statement about how she was 'alone ' out there and so brave seemed to me to sound like it was making her out to be a poor 'victim', when in fact I was pointing out that she was no such thing.

I would bet that she would not think of herself either as 'poor little Anna' who was being snapped at by the big bad wolf.....
I know if it were me writing my own blog and lashing out publicly at Lance, I wouldn't be surprised if I got a response from him, and all I was really saying was 'don't worry' --Anna can hold her own and take care of herself.

Otherwise she really shouldn't be out there in the media looking for followers and visibility.

btw, armstrong is a big 'celebrity, bla,bla ' but he is just a human being....don't be so starstruck....

 

[DomesticDomestique]

And Telluride....and drunken, rambling calls to journalists.

What happened in Telluride? This is the second time you mentioned it, but I don't think we've heard details of any incident.

 

[JRTinMA]

A curious question I'd like to know the answer to as well. Rarely does someone lurk a year before posting. And it seems extraordinary that one would lurk so much, that they would remember specific discussions they supposedly took no part in.

What a ridiculous comment. I "lurked" for over a year before I registered and made a post. Matlock just flipped over...

 

[Jack (6 ch)]

Simplistically, what are the chances that if it goes pubic (I understand that to mean arbitration??) and it looks pretty certain Lance is going to be discredited that he will go for the UCI and its ring leaders?

It could get quite hairy for all concerned...

 

[sashimono]

Originally Posted by Alpe d'Huez
A curious question I'd like to know the answer to as well. Rarely does someone lurk a year before posting. And it seems extraordinary that one would lurk so much, that they would remember specific discussions they supposedly took no part in.

What a ridiculous comment. I "lurked" for over a year before I registered and made a post. Matlock is just flipped over...

The ridiculous part is calling this a discussion. It's more like that part of a bodybuilding competition where everybody comes out and flexes at the same time.

 

[MD FACG FACP]

"Originally Posted by zigmeister
Or maybe you can look at it from the other side. Why are so many people out to get him and prove something? The egos and holier than tho' attitude to justify the hunt against him for years now is just as bizarre and shows abnormal psychological traits as LA.

Wouldn't you agree? Talking about appearances and obsession. Half the Clinic posters are just as obsessed along with USADA and the Feds to prove his guilt. I find this behavior as OCD and ego driven as Lance's.

This intense hunt by various groups, the Feds and USADA has probably put more time, money and resources into proving allegations against LA as they put into hunting Bin Laden for 10yrs."

No wonder Armstrong has supporters, Someone stupid enough to compare LA/USADA to BinLaden/TheWorld.......what a flipping moron.

 

[mewmewmew13]

Agreed. I expect his drug abuse to escalate. Especially seeing he is banned from all competition. He's been a long time user of the white lady as it stands.

It all starts with something as innocent as michelob ultra....
all downhill from there....

seriously, he will find outlets for his anger somehow....remember, he said that if he was "going down he would take cycling down with him" did he not?

 

[RichWalk]

It all starts with something as innocent as michelob ultra....
all downhill from there....

seriously, he will find outlets for his anger somehow....remember, he said that if he was "going down he would take cycling down with him" did he not?

hence my simplistic comments, long term it could actually benefit clean cycling, not holding my breath on that but its an option

 

[Turner29]

and what of Chris Carmichael ? I haven't heard from this guy during these latest proceedings at all ? Will he be part of the revelation when it all comes out ?

thanks in advance

Unfortunately, Chris Carmichael, America's honorary "Doctor Evil" and one of the early proponents of doping, will get off scott free.

 

[Oldman]

Unfortunately, Chris Carmichael, America's honorary "Doctor Evil" and one of the early proponents of doping, will get off scott free.

I know a few former Carmichael training instructors that have left and their clients left with them. That will hurt him where it counts. Since his legacy is closely tied with Lance they'll likely end up in the same handbasket on it's way to the nether region.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

The ridiculous part is calling this a discussion. It's more like that part of a bodybuilding competition where everybody comes out and flexes at the same time.

Isn't that what you just did? Don't answer, it will cause you to realize the actual height from which you post.

 

[Microchip]

....remember, he said that if he was "going down he would take cycling down with him" did he not?

I've heard said of him before. If it's true he said that, he still thinks he's big, so big that if he falls, he'll bring down the planet (of cycling). If it's not true, well, he still won't bring down cycling.

 

[mewmewmew13]

I've heard said of him before. If it's true he said that, he still thinks he's big, so big that if he falls, he'll bring down the planet (of cycling). If it's not true, well, he still won't bring down cycling.

It's why I can't wait until he is irrelevant.
That is a low and small thing to say.

...and why you can have such great fodder for toons.

 

[python]

we now have a little more than 24 hours left for the deadline to expire...

still no news from team armstrong. what is going on ?

quickstepper, do you want to take a shot ? what is your prediction (if i did not miss it) ?

 

[mewmewmew13]

we now have a little more than 24 hours left for the deadline to expire...

still no news from team armstrong. what is going on ?

quickstepper, do you want to take a shot ? what is your prediction (if i did not miss it) ?

RR says it will be "craptastic" in the coming days...