USADA - Armstrong

[Kennf1]

Link to velonews?

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012...-not-to-be-considered-for-olympic-team_224532

 

[Merckx index]

I'd be interested to see if the UCI attempt to intervene.

I can see a couple of issues where they will just about have to, at least have to make some kind of statement:

1) the alleged EPO positive coverup at the TdS. Ashenden made a good point in an interview reported on CN the other day. Regardless of whether that was a real positive or just a borderline positive, Lance's reported words indicate he thought he had the power to influence the decision.
2) the 09-10 blood samples. UCI was running the passport, and they apparently found no problem with those samples. IF USADA has, UCI will have some explaining to do. However, though UCI was running the BP, quite often the samples were tested in WADA-affiliated labs. It would be interesting and obviously relevant to know if that were the case with LA's samples. If the samples were tested in a WADA lab, would WADA scientists be involved in their interpretation, or would they just pass the raw data on to UCI scientists?

Edit: Apparently all the statistical analysis was done by UCI up until January of this year. WADA now conducts the analysis. I knew they were doing it now, but did not know when they were given this responsibility.

So the bottom line is, UCI would have made the interpretation of Armstrong's blood values, regardless of whether the tests were carried out by WADA. This could be the answer to why, if these values were so dodgy, a case had not been brought against LA sooner. Boy, if WADA pushes this issue, they will in effect be saying that UCI let LA off. Remember, the reason WADA was not in charge of interpreting the passport data before was because UCI got sulky over Pound's comments that they weren't trying to catch dopers. All of this could very likely be dredged up again in this hearing.

 

[sniper]

I always thought CVV is one of the clean guys? Has he a bad history in his past?

one of the clean guys? how many clean guys you think there are? and even if you find a handful of clean guys in the peloton (which I doubt), why would CVV be one of them?

# 1998–2003: US Postal Service Pro Cycling Team
# 2004: Liberty Seguros
# 2005–2007: Team CSC


and how are you gonna end 4th in the tour without juicing?

 

[mewmewmew13]

Velonews statement: USA Cycling statement: Hincapie, Leipheimer, Vande Velde & Zabriskie individually requested they not be considered for Olympic nomination

Very interesting. I know DZ was targeting the ITT. So there's 4 former teammates who are USADA witnesses. None of them seeking revenge, etc.

USA CYCLING statement
(thanks lyne for thlink)

http://www.podiuminsight.com/2012/06/16/usa-cycling-statement-regarding-olympic-selection/

edit: oops just saw kennf link velonews

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I'd wait on the a link and a story, and if there's a story, look closely at the source. I thought I read several strories about Phinney vs. Z in which Z was quoted in the context of wanting the slot?

I hope you are wearing gloves while you are grabbing at that straw.

Maybe yourself and Straydog would like to clarify your positions on Hincapie?
Nice guy George or
Bitter, jealous, lying doper type guy.

 

[Benotti69]

has it been sussed who the 10 riders are

Floyd
Tyler
Hincapie
Leipheimer
Vande Velde
Zabriskie
Andreu
Vaughters?
McCarty?
Danielson?
Barry?
Cruz?

 

[BillytheKid]

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012...-not-to-be-considered-for-olympic-team_224532

Thanks. If reference to their early statement about those with connection to the USADA case?

Interesting.

 

[TubularBills]

I always thought CVV is one of the clean guys? Has he a bad history in his past?

No, no, no.. I was speaking about Horner's support of Armstrong. Sorry it wasn't explicit. CVV is in my mind a rock-star!

 

[webvan]

one of the clean guys? how many clean guys you think there are? and even if you find a handful of clean guys in the peloton (which I doubt), why would CVV be one of them?

# 1998–2003: US Postal Service Pro Cycling Team
# 2004: Liberty Seguros
# 2005–2007: Team CSC


and how are you gonna end 4th in the tour without juicing?

Racing for JV ? Wiggo did say that seeing CVV finish 4th gave him hope that he could make it clean.

 

[rhubroma]

I have to disagree, Hog. I think these are mostly reasonable requests, though I don’t know exactly what Luskin offered to say or do in any communication he had with USADA prior to the release of USADA’s letter.

Specifically:

1) I think USADA should tell LA/Luskin the names of the witnesses, with the understanding that the names don’t go public. Since the witnesses have already testified, I don’t see how intimidation can come into play. I’m sure the witnesses would prefer that LA never know who they are, but at some point he will have to know, why not tell him now? What’s he gonna do that he couldn’t do after any hearing?
2) As I’ve said before, I don’t think USADA has a strong case on the blood values in 09-10. The values are probably like Contador’s, suspicious but not compelling. But whatever they do have, they should make it available to LA (though in fact he must have it already).

If USADA’s case is as strong as they claim it to be, why not present the details to LA? Why give him the chance to complain about due process? I think in a case with stakes these high, USADA should go out of their way to accommodate any requests LA’s team makes. That will send the signal that they are confident they have a very strong case and don’t need any advantages other than the evidence itself.

They also need to do this to move the case forward. I believe USADA said it was submitting more detailed information to the Review Board. They would virtually have to if they wanted to ensure that the process will move on. It only makes sense to give that same information to LA. In fact, if they don’t, the RB might even rule against them.

I interpret Luskin’s letter pretty straightforwardly. He’s gearing up for battle, and wants to get as much information pre-hearing as he can. If LA had meant what he said about not fighting in the MJ interview, Luskin would not have written this letter.

Like in Al Copone's case. When dealing with the mafia, one must be prudent. Prudency is of the utmost necessity, in cases like these. One must act with caution and, of course, circumspection; otherwise with all the legal considerations, which have nothing to do with the facts, one is doomed. The facts, as they occured, are prey to that which money can buy or sustain in obfuscating the events as they have actually taken place. Capito?

 

[TubularBills]

I can see a couple of issues where they will just about have to, at least have to make some kind of statement:

1) the alleged EPO positive coverup at the TdS. Ashenden made a good point in an interview reported on CN the other day. Regardless of whether that was a real positive or just a borderline positive, Lance's reported words indicate he thought he had the power to influence the decision.
2) the 09-10 blood samples. UCI was running the passport, and they apparently found no problem with those samples. IF USADA has, UCI will have some explaining to do. However, though UCI was running the BP, quite often the samples were tested in WADA-affiliated labs. It would be interesting and obviously relevant to know if that were the case with LA's samples. If the samples were tested in a WADA lab, would WADA scientists be involved in their interpretation, or would they just pass the raw data on to UCI scientists?

Thanks index for mentioning this - everyone else is assuming USADA ran the controls - not "received access to the results" - hence the delay... i.e '10 to the present.

 

[BillytheKid]

that pretty much cinches it.

What is most rewarding, are the ripples... throughout the sport - the timing is perfect to signal a sea change & a benefit to the future of cycling! Kudos to the courage & tenacity of USADA. I'm optimistic that their timely action will reinvigorate the sport with honesty & sportsmanship. (& chapeau to the aging U.S. pros for playing along, there are those among them that truly do love the sport and are tainted by the LA pay-to-play doctrine.)

I am disappointed in Chris for trading lies for a potential tour seat & Olympic spot... out of the sphere of all predicted character, unlike him... "use the force Luke." - family values & ETHICS.

Horner does not have to be lying. He may not be in agreement with you. If he's never seen it, how can he convict?

Of course you may be of generation that's come to believe in guilt by association as a rational argument.

such false logic goes like this: If Presdent Jimmy Carter's brother Billy had a drinking problem. President Carter must have a drinking promblem also.

Out for a troll today are we?

 

[Kennf1]

Racing for JV ? Wiggo did say that seeing CVV finish 4th gave him hope that he could make it clean.

CVV has a suspect past by virtue of the teams he was on, but I like to think that he got refuge from the doping scene when he moved to Vaughters' team. I recall a story (can't remember from where) that in one of the early Postal training camps he was putting out numbers higher than Armstrong. They didn't want to tell Lance for fear of ****ing him off.

 

[Polish]

Velonews statement: USA Cycling statement: Hincapie, Leipheimer, Vande Velde & Zabriskie individually requested they not be considered for Olympic nomination

Very interesting. I know DZ was targeting the ITT. So there's 4 former teammates who are USADA witnesses. None of them seeking revenge, etc.

Maybe they are Boycotting the Olympics?
In support of Lance.
I would call that a Mancott grrrr.

 

[TubularBills]

Like in Al Copone's case. When dealing with the mafia, one must be prudent. Prudency is of the utmost necessity, in cases like these. One must act with caution and, of course, circumspection; otherwise with all the legal considerations, which have nothing to do with the facts, one is doomed. The facts, as they occured, are prey to that which money can buy or sustain in obfuscating the events as they have actually taken place. Capito?

Might be important to remember that this isn't a court. USADA may have the latitude to include some of the plastic residuals that indicate transfusion.

The hurdle is markedly lower than the federal case. i.e. rules violation(s).

Which I think supports eyewitness testimony?

No jury, just an "impartial" board.

How much "Board" does the potential for "465k" of leverage buy?

 

[Race Radio]

It is comical that Wonderboy is crying about the USADA rules. He seems to have forgotten that his agent, Bill Stapleton, played a key role in crafting those rules when he was an USOC board member. Maybe he should take up his complaints with his partner in crime?

He also need to stop with the persecution complex, crying about not receiving anything. He has received a bunch and knows exactly how and when he will receive more. Looks like his normal strategy, tell a big lie to get the groupies motivated

As for the Olympic team stuff, err....I told you about that months ago.

 

[webvan]

CVV has a suspect past by virtue of the teams he was on, but I like to think that he got refuge from the doping scene when he moved to Vaughters' team. I recall a story (can't remember from where) that in one of the early Postal training camps he was putting out numbers higher than Armstrong. They didn't want to tell Lance for fear of ****ing him off.

I hope so too, I'd be really upset if I found that Wiggo is doping too.

 

[sniper]

perception is reality

CVV has a suspect past by virtue of the teams he was on, but I like to think that he got refuge from the doping scene when he moved to Vaughters' team. I recall a story (can't remember from where) that in one of the early Postal training camps he was putting out numbers higher than Armstrong. They didn't want to tell Lance for fear of ****ing him off.

what's it about JV that makes even some more critical clinic posters believe Garmin is clean?
is it JV's glasses? the nerdy mike myers look?

really, it's not that complicated: you're not gonna end 4th in the tour without juicing.
you're not gonna win the races Garmin is winning without juicing.

 

[TubularBills]

Horner does not have to be lying. He may not be in agreement with you. If he's never seen it, how can he convict?

Of course you may be of generation that's come to believe in guilt by association as a rational argument.

such false logic goes like this: If Presdent Jimmy Carter's brother Billy had a drinking problem. President Carter must have a drinking promblem also.

Out for a troll today are we?

I agree with the premise, but he contradicted himself in an interview, by absolving and supporting Lance while simultaneously supporting evolution of more effective drug controls that would improve on the past.

Apologies for not having the link at hand.

If Trolling is truthing, I accept the criticism.

 

[BillytheKid]

No, no, no.. I was speaking about Horner's support of Armstrong. Sorry it wasn't explicit. CVV is in my mind a rock-star!

You some kind of all seeing and all knowing eye?

You just called Chris Horner a lier with no proof of it at all. CVV has no particular claim one way or the other, that makes him a Rock-Star?

 

[TubularBills]

I hope so too, I'd be really upset if I found that Wiggo is doping too.

Ouch. Don't you think it is pretty likely?

 

[TubularBills]

You some kind of all seeing and all knowing eye?

You just called Chris Horner a lier with no proof of it at all. CVV has no particular claim one way or the other, that makes him a Rock-Star?

I stand by my perception. Subjective, not objective.

You are free to believe and interpret your own reality.

I am also not an elite athlete, & therefore don't pretend to understand their motivations or aspirations.

 

[Race Radio]

VDV will have some interesting stories. He is one of the few guys who asked "Why?" "What is this?"

 

[BillytheKid]

I agree with the premise, but he contradicted himself in an interview, by absolving and supporting Lance while simultaneously supporting evolution of more effective drug controls that would improve on the past.

Apologies for not having the link at hand.

If Trolling is truthing, I accept the criticism.

I read Horner's comments as well. Sure he's long winded, but he's commenting on hard physical evidence and lack there of to date. Damming physicial evidence would be presumed in the GJ going forward with charges, but that evaporated.

Sure there lots of smoke on LA, but I've seen you guys running victory laps before.

A legal ruling on this ruling chould effect all sport for a long time. I think that the long delay in bringing this forth may actually be a leg to stand on. The comeback however may yield some fruit.

.

 

[rhubroma]

Might be important to remember that this isn't a court. USADA may have the latitude to include some of the plastic residuals that indicate transfusion.

The hurdle is markedly lower than the federal case. i.e. rules violation(s).

Which I think supports eyewitness testimony?

No jury, just an "impartial" board.

How much "Board" does the potential for "465k" of leverage buy?

Enough lottery tickets to win. Or is this football?