USADA - Armstrong

[benzwire]

I'm just hoping Bobby J doesn't get dragged into this. When I said American or Russian, I was referring to the TT medalists.

 

[Race Radio]

Wow, this will be an interesting week indeed. Thanks Race Radio, I'm sure this is like an early Christmas for you! Good stuff!

oh, this will not all be the week. It will be over the next few months.

It would have been Christmas if it came 10 years ago. Now I just want it to be over so the sport can move on and not continue to be infected by it's past

 

[Race Radio]

From Wiki -
American Road Cycling Team

Athlete Event Time Rank
Tyler Hamilton Men's road race 5:41:56 18
Men's road time trial 57:31.74
George Hincapie Men's road race 5:41:56 24
Bobby Julich Men's road race 5:41:56 28
Men's road time trial 57:58.19
Levi Leipheimer Men's road race Did not finish
Jason McCartney Men's road race Did not finish

Of course I was referring to archery and horseback riding

 

[joe_papp]

I'm accused of witness intimidation - so give me the names of the witnesses! wtf?!

Excellent post, Joe.

I can't help but think of the AA meeting guideline where a person shares "what we were like, what happened and what we are like now". Seems to be very cathartic and effective at motivating the members to stay sober.

Thanks mate.

Interesting analogy, especially since it suggests the possibility that JV might be effectively martyring himself in order to see his team continue, b/c he's denying himself the cathartic opportunity to come clean and stop tormenting himself?

And just to be clear, I'm not arguing this from a holier-than-thou perspective or demanding that JV or his riders or anyone else do something, for that matter. They're free to do and say whatever they want. It's just that this is what I think the problem is with taking that approach - asking the public to "just trust us" - w/ fans of the sport who actually have been around the block and developed a healthy cynicism.

It's certainly not required of anyone going forward, and I can completely understand why JV wouldn't take that path, especially since he needs/needed to present a certain image and deflect a certain amount of negative attention in order to secure and maintain sponsorship (as I believe Race Radio alludes to). But it's disingenuous to complain in the form of op/ED pieces in cyclingnews about this very phenomena, when you're not willing to do anything to ameliorate the very reasonable concerns of your audience!

...

One thing I think is darkly-humorous concerning LA's attorney Luskin's angry/condescending response to USADA is the suggestion that he (Luskin) be provided with the names of the "secret" witnesses who have provided testimony implicating the suspects in the USPS Conspiracy. He doesn't come out and ask directly for their names, like he requests the laboratory data supporting the 2009/2010 tests that allegedly show blood doping, but he complains quite vehemently about their identities not being available to Armstrong's defense and concludes the letter by requesting all of the information to which he thinks LA is entitled. Does no one else see the incredible irony of the accused's attorney demanding the names of the witnesses who've provided evidence against the accused, who is alleged as one of the defining "Common Practices and Acts of the Conspiracy" to have used "fear, intimidation and coercion to attempt to enforce a code of silence (or omerta) by team members and employees to prevent detection of the Conspiracy or the prosecution of co-conspirators for anti-doping rule violations"???

The attorney for a defendant accused of multiple anti-doping violations, including witness intimidation and coercion, is precipitately demanding the names of the witness who are testifying against him!

It boggles the mind!

(especially since this demand for the identities of the witnesses against the conspirators is being made precipitately, at a point in time during the process when the defense is not entitled to this information, btw.)

note: here is link to letter referenced - http://www.scribd.com/doc/97392365/...Bill-Bock-USADA-by-Robert-Luskin-13-June-2012

 

[joe_papp]

also to be revealed

So what is next?

Last weeks events were no surprise to those who read The Clinic....but what is next?

you will hear the phrase "take the shot or you do not start"
We will find out about an American rider who got his EPO confiscated by customs
Tyler was not the only guy who doped at the 2004 Olympics
Followed, hacked, and harassed. Yup. Lots of that.
Pictures
Tapes
Tenerife
and more good news coming from across the pond

Stay tuned kids. Last week was just the half time show. This quarter going to be fun!

We may also hear how he [allegedly] tried to buy an ownership stake in the (privately-held) company of one of his principle antagonists, just to fck with them. And then had their website hacked [allegedly] - just because.

note: [allegedly] added in comical attempt at CYA.

 

[Race Radio]

We may also hear how he [allegedly] tried to buy an ownership stake in the (privately-held) company of one of his principle antagonists, just to fck with them. And then had their website hacked [allegedly] - just because.

note: [allegedly] added in comical attempt at CYA.

Well, given that his own line of spinning bikes had to be recalled it is only natural he would look to buy into a company that made good ones

 

[rhubroma]

Wow, Rhubroma!

That is as clear and beautiful as a Montana big sky in Autumn.

They should add that as a footnote to all the blanks of the revised TdF wins; 1999-2006.

Great read.

I only hope I won't seem conceited if I say that I forgot to mention: "and anyone who dared to questioned the script or called him to task on it was bullied, intimidated and in a few cases ruined."

I don't think I'm the only one around here who for this reason wouldn't be totally satisfied with anything less than him loosing all his money and being put behind bars. That *** deserves to do time.

The qualification being totally, because with the judicial system in the US being what it is - for which if you are rich you can literally get away with murder, but if you're poor you are sent straight to the electric chair to fry and the executioner is already waiting - I realize I will have to content myself with far less. Although there is the distinct possibility with even nothing, if he's not condemned. C'est la vie.

 

[ultimobici]

Word. & thx...


I know it was being argued over in a different thread, the one in which JV appeared and posted multiple times, but when "those guys" are quoted in the media saying, "just trust us and believe in us, cycling is cleaner now than it was, we deserve the benefit of the doubt," etc. the reason why it's nearly impossible for anyone to actually do that and still be able to reconcile w/ past events is because there hasn't been any kind of accounting of how things were. so how can you not feel squeamish about "trusting" the declarations of some rider ("i have values") w/o their firstly owning up to whatever it is that they may have seen and done before, and explaining how that behavior was in conflict with their values and what is actually different now such that they merit our trust.

this is the biggest problem (on the doping front) that I have w/ JV - him all but pleading with us/the public to cut him, his team, his riders, the sport some slack and just accept that things are better, riders are clean, and stop connecting the dots, but without ever owning up to what was going on before, which would serve as a baseline reference point to illustrate the differences that he's claiming exist.

I really think that, for the good of cycling, riders still competing or hoping to ever work in sport again who were active during what's generally accepted as being the doping era should be allowed (and encouraged) to sit for some truth & reconciliation committee and tell all but w/o the risk of criminal, financial or sporting penalties, assuming full, frank, honest confessions. But then any rider who doesn't avail themselves of this, if they're later caught doping, or evidence emerges that conclusively proves they doped, should be banned for life from sport.

You can't force someone to tell the truth or come clean about the past but nor should you allow them to bully you into acquiescing and accepting their claims of having values, being cleaner or otherwise being different than before, if they're not willing to explain truthfully and honestly and in detail what "before" consisted of...

Great post. In particular the highlighted part.

IMO, the only way that the sport can move forward is to face up to its past in full. The fact that Armstrong has sailed through all this while his contemporaries have to a large degree been sanctioned or exposed sends a ambiguous message to up and coming riders. He needs to be sanctioned just as Ullrich, Pantani, Basso etc have been. The way some people talk of him, referencing his charitable work in particular, you'd think he was the Second Coming. He's not. He's just another athlete who cheated the system, his competitors and the public, yet because of the cash he's accumulated has been able to evade justice to date.

As for the assertion that it's "a waste of tax dollars", would you apply the same logic to someone who had acquired their wealth on Wall Street using insider dealing 15 years ago, retired and then come back to do it again? I'd bet most here and in the wider public would want that individual pursued and punished. How is Armstrong any different?

 

[nevada]

The governing body is complicit with all that's happened, then and now. Until there's change at that level there will be no change.

 

[DirtyWorks]

The attorney for a defendant accused of multiple anti-doping violations, including witness intimidation and coercion, is precipitately demanding the names of the witness who are testifying against him!

It boggles the mind!

(especially since this demand for the identities of the witnesses against the conspirators is being made precipitately, at a point in time during the process when the defense is not entitled to this information, btw.)

note: here is link to letter referenced - http://www.scribd.com/doc/97392365/...Bill-Bock-USADA-by-Robert-Luskin-13-June-2012

Apparently during the now moribund Federal Investigation, there was the same pursuit of informers. Scary!

I think this particular letter sets up an awful, slow, grind to disappointment. Mostly because procedure and law is poorly defined and tested in this area, so plenty of exploits. Looking backwards, perhaps letting Wonderboy off the list and running down the other uncapitalize scumbags would possibly have been better.

 

[Elagabalus]

This is what I've been saying. I'd love to have a beer with JV, but only after he tells the entire story. I don't hate the guy, but until he squares-out the ledger, I have to hold my ground. Apologies in advance to those of you that have lower standards for redemption.

You don't even have to buy him a beer. Just get him in front of a room full of high schoolers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PP3vRSohTHc

OK ... it's not enough info so maybe you need the beer!

 

[Oldman]

I only hope I won't seem conceited if I say that I forgot to mention: "and anyone who dared to questioned the script or called him to task on it was bullied, intimidated and in a few cases ruined."

I don't think I'm the only one around here who for this reason wouldn't be totally satisfied with anything less than him loosing all his money and being put behind bars. That *** deserves to do time.

The qualification being totally, because with the judicial system in the US being what it is - for which if you are rich you can literally get away with murder, but if you're poor you are sent straight to the electric chair to fry and the executioner is already waiting - I realize I will have to content myself with far less. Although there is the distinct possibility with even nothing, if he's not condemned. C'est la vie.

You underestimate the power of the common constituency that made him wealthy. Americans love winners but generally reward the the phonies with what they deserve...conspicuous indifference and zero financial reward. What could hurt him more?

 

[CraigN]

Wasnt it Horner who said that today. Stop focusing on the past and concentrate on today......can you not see that if he is convicted it would be a huge deterrent on dopers today. The realisation that you can be caught at any time. You let it go because it happened ages ago and you only cement the notion that cheating can benefit you. Even if he is cleared it still puts fear into those who want to dope. Lance would be creating doping awareness...that you could be caught..
Any talk of waste of money etc is another deflection tactic that doesnt sound like its coming from an innocent party.

Deflection tactic?

So firstly, you dont think there's something wrong with being charged for something 12 or 13 years AFTER the offence?

& secondly, there was obviously someone on the inside in USADA who helped with the initial cover ups of Lances "so called" positive EPO test in the first place... hows that going to make them look?

They're throwing mud in their own faces if he does in fact get found guilty!

 

[Oldman]

Deflection tactic?

So firstly, you dont think there's something wrong with being charged for something 12 or 13 years AFTER the offence?

& secondly, there was obviously someone on the inside in USADA who helped with the initial cover ups of Lances "so called" positive EPO test in the first place... hows that going to make them look?

They're throwing mud in their own faces if he does in fact get found guilty!

Dude, there's stuff going on now. LA's USADA file is as current as your last physical and I'm not talking about the self-acutalization you perform while looking at Lance's cover shot on Outdoor magazine. How do you get USADA being involved in USAC and UCi administration of the two-wheeled sport?

 

[Oldman]

PS: Horner wants to ride another Tour. He'll do just about anything to get the last shot before the party is over.

 

[MacRoadie]

& secondly, there was obviously someone on the inside in USADA who helped with the initial cover ups of Lances "so called" positive EPO test in the first place... hows that going to make them look?

Ok, I'll bite: what EPO positive?

 

[joe_papp]

Dude, there's stuff going on now. ...

As an aside...

I think new registrants to Cyclingnews Forum should have to have a minimum of 15-25 posts outside of the Clinic before they're allowed in here to start derailing higher-level conversations with extremely weak opening shots.

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

CraigN, please back up your allegations. You can't randomly make things up and assert them as facts.

Susan

 

[TexPat]

CraigN, please back up your allegations. You can't randomly make things up and assert them as facts.

Susan

Yeah, I'd love to see the facts behind that one. Really. You have no idea.
Quick. Who was in charge of USADA in 2004?

 

[D Avoid]

Excellent post, Joe.

I can't help but think of the AA meeting guideline where a person shares "what we were like, what happened and what we are like now". Seems to be very cathartic and effective at motivating the members to stay sober.

What you may not realise is that Pance Arsethong displays many of the

classic addict/alcoholic traits and that PED's are probably very addictive to

that particular mindset. Wigans displays it with the drink, Armstrong with the

rage, control freakery, constant undermining of those not on message, being

out of or off of your head doesn't necessarily mean falling around the place

in an incapable fashion. The living of a lie, with his one covering everything

he does and has done, makes for one of the most volcanicly eruptive

mindsets going. I doubt he really knew how good it would get when he started

getting the "right" medical treatment in 98? Generally speaking I would not

mention the behaviour of a suffering celebrity online but he has achieved

special status with his ongoing, imploding lifestyle, that has attacked and

severely damaged many others in his chosen sport. I would be fairly confident

that their will be a psychiatric angle to his diagnosis and that when, assuming

he has not already(control), he melts down it will be extremely messy indeed

and his self destruction will enter warp drive or he might just hit the pub

instead!!

 

[mikkemus23]

So what is next?

Last weeks events were no surprise to those who read The Clinic....but what is next?

you will hear the phrase "take the shot or you do not start"
We will find out about an American rider who got his EPO confiscated by customs
Tyler was not the only guy who doped at the 2004 Olympics
Followed, hacked, and harassed. Yup. Lots of that.
Pictures
Tapes
Tenerife
and more good news coming from across the pond

Stay tuned kids. Last week was just the half time show. This quarter going to be fun!

Finally! This will be great

Any info about Steffen Kjærgaard? He was on the USP TdF-team with LA twice, and is now the sporting director of the Norwegian Cycling Federation. He never saw or heard a thing about PEDs in those years... Yeah right.

Would love to see some heat on him!

Steffen Kjærgaard denies for the 30th time use of dope at USP

 

[poupou]

Armstrong has left Nice

Lance flew with his own jet to USA Saturday has said french TV!

 

[sniper]

Finally! This will be great

Any info about Steffen Kjærgaard? He was on the USP TdF-team with LA twice, and is now the sporting director of the Norwegian Cycling Federation. He never saw or heard a thing about PEDs in those years... Yeah right.

Would love to see some heat on him!

Steffen Kjærgaard denies for the 30th time use of dope at USP

Same here, I'd love to see some heat be brought upon my compatriot Hein Verdruggen.
I recall Landis in 2010 calling Hein out to testify in the case:
http://www.focus.de/sport/mehrsport...-zeugenaussage-von-verbruggen_aid_530748.html

Wonder if Hein's going to be more explicitly implicated in this.
Can they subpoena the guy?

 

[CraigN]

Dude, there's stuff going on now. LA's USADA file is as current as your last physical and I'm not talking about the self-acutalization you perform while looking at Lance's cover shot on Outdoor magazine. How do you get USADA being involved in USAC and UCi administration of the two-wheeled sport?

As current as my last physical on a case thats 13 years old? how exactly?

& as for "self-acutalization you perform while looking at Lance's cover shot on Outdoor magazine"... come now dude; i voice my opinion about something & you come back at me with that? lol!

I wont lose sleep if he does get proven guilty & has TDF medals stripped... i just dont think this whole case is necessary, thats all.

 

[cprior]

I wont lose sleep if he does get proven guilty & has TDF medals stripped... i just dont think this whole case is necessary, thats all.

We are all different, I guess. I personally think the world will be a better place if high-profile examples of bullying, cheating and unsportsmanlikeness are offcially sanctioned.