USADA - Armstrong

[ChewbaccaD]

What a joke.

Way to tie in some global political viewpoint you might have into a freaking sports story. Thanks for the laugh

Way to stick your head in the sand and pretend this isn't indicative of something larger than some narcissistic buttwipe shooting some dope to win a race. 8 posts in and this is your response. Surprise. Unprecedented. So original.

 

[mastersracer]

I might be wrong, but what I am saying is that for a lot of people around the world, Lance is symbolic of of the United States.

I am mounting the argument that for a lot of people the judgement will not be on Lance Armstrong, but rather America. Americans argue about whether Lance took drugs. I think the rest of the world accepts that he did and now wants to see how the country deals with this reality. Will it accept it or will it be a case of denial, outrage and ultimatelly sweeping under the carpet?

Previous behaviour would suggest the latter, but maybe times are changing.

This viewpoint is captured in the documentary, Bigger, Stronger, Faster, which is about steroids. The film's subtitle is "the side effect of being American," and the director makes the link between American culture and winning at all costs. Somewhat overstated, but not a preachy film - the director and his 2 brothers used steroids on and off (the brother, a pro wrestler, died a few months after the film came out at age 37).

 

[hfer07]

I am mounting the argument that for a lot of people the judgement will not be on Lance Armstrong, but rather America. Americans argue about whether Lance took drugs. I think the rest of the world accepts that he did and now wants to see how the country deals with this reality. Will it accept it or will it be a case of denial, outrage and ultimatelly sweeping under the carpet?

your quote isn't that far off- since I still have to deal with people claiming this investigation is because of "The French"....

..but following what you're implying- I also have a problem with an American Society believing that every single aspect of life can be resolved with "pills & medications"-"let alone recreational drugs" -can see such bad thing as an athlete using dope-Here in America- the minimum addictions is to "Sleeping pills", and goes up to pain killers, prescription drugs, anti-depressing pills, etc...even the kids are hooked to cold medications to get high!!!

As I wrote a couple pages back - people here seem more bothered by the money & time consuming on the investigation, rather than the "doping violations" at all...

 

[fatsprintking]

What a joke.

Way to tie in some global political viewpoint you might have into a freaking sports story. Thanks for the laugh

My pleasure - glad it gave you a bit of happiness in what might be a day thats going to be pretty tough going for you.

 

[fatsprintking]

your quote isn't that far off- since I still have to deal with people claiming this investigation is because of "The French"....

..but following what you're implying- I also have a problem with an American Society believing that every single aspect of life can be resolved with "pills & medications"-"let alone recreational drugs" -can see such bad thing as an athlete using dope-Here in America- the minimum addictions is to "Sleeping pills", and goes up to pain killers, prescription drugs, anti-depressing pills, etc...even the kids are hooked to cold medications to get high!!!

As I wrote a couple pages back - people here seem more bothered by the money & time consuming on the investigation, rather than the "doping violations" at all...

Yes this is another whole issue - at one level there is "the end justifies the means" side of the arguement with drugs in sport, which is taken to a new level with Lance in that his "end" takes in the fight for cancer etc.

This however moves onto the normalization of a whole range of drug use. Every day we are sold performance enhancing drugs in the mainstream media. You have a headache or cold, you pop a pill right, so you can perform to your potential. You have a bit of a sore throat - antibiotics. Not feeling 100% positive about your life? Antidepressants.

It is a pretty slippery slope and you can see how many people would feel that in sport they are not performance enhancing drugs, they are performing to your potential drugs.

 

[mastersracer]

Re documentary Bigger, Stronger, Faster, craziest moment: Floyd Landis and his homemade altitude chamber at about 51 minutes in:

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/bigger-stronger-faster/

 

[MarkvW]

Yes this is another whole issue - at one level there is "the end justifies the means" side of the arguement with drugs in sport, which is taken to a new level with Lance in that his "end" takes in the fight for cancer etc.

This however moves onto the normalization of a whole range of drug use. Every day we are sold performance enhancing drugs in the mainstream media. You have a headache or cold, you pop a pill right, so you can perform to yoour potential. You have a bit of a sore throat - antibiotics. Not feeling 100% positive about your life? Antidepressants.

It is a pretty slippery slope and you can see how many people would feel that they are not performance enhancing drugs, they are performing to your potential drugs.

We should be able to take good drugs. We should not take bad drugs. If we give the power to other people to decide which drugs we can and cannot take, then that grant of power is a political and not a moral issue.

Nothing wrong with "drugs." Defined broadly enough, "food" is "drugs."

The problem with doping in sports is that the doping contestant breaks a promise to the other contestants (and would-be contestants). USADA's mandate is to work to keep sport free of people who break that promise.

But the morality isn't about "drugs," it's about the sportsman's pledge to play by the rules.

 

[Neworld]

I think this sums up 99.999999999% of the public's opinion about this matter.


"Don't care."


But all of the people posting on the forum with their moral high ground and perfect lives they live will continue on, wishing they were something they weren't.

Carry on Joe Papp and the likes.

I think most people with cancer care. Believe it or not when people are dying they are, get ready for it...they are usually going to die. And within their last days and months of existence they don't like to spend energy on fake initiatives. They don't like being deceived by a schmuck who lies to attain a position of power and wealth while taking their own fragile but pristine moral donations.

Don't even talk sarcastically about high moral ground. Lancey's behaviour BEYOND doping and breaking ethics in sport is diabolical.

 

[MarkvW]

I think most people with cancer care. Believe it or not when people are dying they are, get ready for it...they are usually going to die. And within their last days and months of existence they don't like to spend energy on fake initiatives. They don't like being deceived by a schmuck who lies to attain a position of power and wealth while taking their own fragile but pristine moral donations.

Don't even talk sarcastically about high moral ground. Lancey's behaviour BEYOND doping and breaking ethics in sport is diabolical.

Why should I care? I see scumbags fantastically worse than Lance all the time.

I just want to see the cheater get scorned by the sport!

 

[Neworld]

True. Maybe his quest for bigness wouldn't stop and that's what brought the downfall.

I reckon that the reason for Comeback 2.0 was due to Contador. Contador had 3 TDFs and other GTs under his belt. Under Bruyneel's guidance, Alberto was a runaway train on its way to erasing Armstrong's record. He could not handle that, so he had to comeback.

Sociopaths cannot stop, but ultimately make such bad decisions that they 'take care' of themselves. Natural selection I guess.

 

[Neworld]

Do not try to bait me. I can see what you were trying to do.
I don’t understand why if someone does not like Lance they would still follow his twitter account.
I would never go out and buy a book on Charles Manson but like you said some people do.
Does usada have a twitter account? If so then I would not follow it.

Know your enemy... (Sun Tzu)

 

[mewmewmew13]

Sociopaths cannot stop, but ultimately make such bad decisions that they 'take care' of themselves. Natural selection I guess.

It does also seem to be the downfall of big politicians and greedy business moguls, although not nearly catching up enough of them in my opinion.

It seems as if this has been hashed out in the original 'Lance' thread.

 

[MarkvW]

Know your enemy... (Sun Tzu)

Don't feed the trolls... (Bart Simpson).

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

It was not orchestration. USADA did not "Use" the Feds evidence in the traditional sense. They used it for leverage but they would take their own depos

I agree, Qui Tam is the next big hit. Criminal would be far off.

Yes, I noted Bonnie Ford making the point that USADA used their own evidence, not the Feds evidence up-thread. "Smells orchestrated", was poor wording on my part, as it implies USADA/Fed collaboration is negative, when in fact it is both positive and proper. I really meant that although I can't see proof of it, I think some kind of tag team arrangement has been made.

It just seems too happy a coincidence for the Feds to investigate first, followed by formal USADA action, instead of the two running concurrently. Obviously if Armstrong et al deny the allegations at a USADA hearing under oath, they could face perjury charges. USADA sanctions are therefor likely for Armstrong, Bryuneel and frineds, which paves the way for the Qui Tam nicely. Doping ring leaders sanctioned, fraudsters fined, taxpayers money recovered not wasted. Peace breaks out etc. This happy non-coincidence would provide an explanation for the federal case being dropped so strangely too.

In the above scenario, the only way for the guilty to fight would be procedure, not substance, which certainly matches what we are seeing from Armstrong. But if the Feds are helping USADA, they might have helped them make sure their procedures where spot on too. I'm becoming more hopeful that this is going to end spectacularly after all. The only loose end for USADA is to make sure nothing spectacularly awful happens to the people who cooperated with their investigation. A 6 months off season suspension for GH, DZ, CVV, LL etc wont be spectacular. Bit of a non event really. Perhaps we could have a sweep-stake on the start date to liven it up. 31 July? 4th September.....?

 

[MarkvW]

Yes, I noted Bonnie Ford making the point that USADA used their own evidence, not the Feds evidence up-thread. "Smells orchestrated", was poor wording on my part, as it implies USADA/Fed collaboration is negative, when in fact it is both positive and proper. I really meant that although I can't see proof of it, I think some kind of tag team arrangement has been made.

It just seems too happy a coincidence for the Feds to investigate first, followed by USADA, instead of the two investigations running concurrently. Obviously if the deniers deny to a USADA hearing under oath, they face perjury charges from the Feds. USADA sanctions are therefor likely, which paves the way for the Qui Tam nicely. Doping ring leaders sanctioned, fraudsters fined, taxpayers money recovered not wasted. Peace breaks out etc. This happy non-coincidence would provide an explanation for the federal case being dropped so strangely too.

In the above scenario, the only way for the guilty to fight would be procedure, not substance, which certainly matches what we are seeing. But if the Feds are helping USADA, they might have helped them make sure their procedures where spot on too. I'm becoming more hopeful that this is going to end spectacularly after all. The 6 months off season suspension for GH, DZ, CVV, LL etc wont be spectacular though. Bit of a non event really. Perhaps we could have a sweep-stake on the start date to liven it up. 31 July? 4th September.....?

Bonnie Ford also appeared to make the unqualified statement that the feds are still (currently) investigating the qui tam. That's good news (if true).

 

[Oldman]

This viewpoint is captured in the documentary, Bigger, Stronger, Faster, which is about steroids. The film's subtitle is "the side effect of being American," and the director makes the link between American culture and winning at all costs. Somewhat overstated, but not a preachy film - the director and his 2 brothers used steroids on and off (the brother, a pro wrestler, died a few months after the film came out at age 37).

As much as any one thing the attitude that the ends justify the means in sports needs to be exposed as wrong. As an American I especially want the selfish manipulators that can't at least say they "did what it took to win" exposed as wrong. As a human being I especially want to expose those that would prosper by feeding on the deathly fears and faint hope of the weak as what they are: anti-human.
As a cynic I know it will always be an ongoing battle. As a weak hypocrite I will always need to remind myself that it could happen to me.

 

[Jeremiah]

your quote isn't that far off- since I still have to deal with people claiming this investigation is because of "The French"....

..but following what you're implying- I also have a problem with an American Society believing that every single aspect of life can be resolved with "pills & medications"-"let alone recreational drugs" -can see such bad thing as an athlete using dope-Here in America- the minimum addictions is to "Sleeping pills", and goes up to pain killers, prescription drugs, anti-depressing pills, etc...even the kids are hooked to cold medications to get high!!!

As I wrote a couple pages back - people here seem more bothered by the money & time consuming on the investigation, rather than the "doping violations" at all...

You forgot bombs!

I'm an American. I look around and realize that most Americans are imbeciles. They're just stupid, what can you say?

Of course LA is a symbol of the USA mostly for the worse.

We're not "ugly Americans" for nothing.

Jeez, I have to live here and listen to the morons every day.

The people who've made political tie ins on this thread are mostly correct too. You'll get a few yahoos dismissing those assesments but they're right on target for the most part.

These idiots are serious with the French conspiracy stuff btw.

Anyway the Pod people have taken over.

 

[Jeremiah]

As much as any one thing the attitude that the ends justify the means in sports needs to be exposed as wrong. As an American I especially want the selfish manipulators that can't at least say they "did what it took to win" exposed as wrong. As a human being I especially want to expose those that would prosper by feeding on the deathly fears and faint hope of the weak as what they are: anti-human.
As a cynic I know it will always be an ongoing battle. As a weak hypocrite I will always need to remind myself that it could happen to me.

Congratulations my brother. You belong to the vanishingly small percentage of Americans who are thoughtful and introspective.

 

[Race Radio]

Yes, I noted Bonnie Ford making the point that USADA used their own evidence, not the Feds evidence up-thread. "Smells orchestrated", was poor wording on my part, as it implies USADA/Fed collaboration is negative, when in fact it is both positive and proper. I really meant that although I can't see proof of it, I think some kind of tag team arrangement has been made.

It just seems too happy a coincidence for the Feds to investigate first, followed by USADA, instead of the two investigations running concurrently. Obviously if the deniers deny to a USADA hearing under oath, they face perjury charges from the Feds. USADA sanctions are therefor likely, which paves the way for the Qui Tam nicely. Doping ring leaders sanctioned, fraudsters fined, taxpayers money recovered not wasted. Peace breaks out etc. This happy non-coincidence would provide an explanation for the federal case being dropped so strangely too.

In the above scenario, the only way for the guilty to fight would be procedure, not substance, which certainly matches what we are seeing. But if the Feds are helping USADA, they might have helped them make sure their procedures where spot on too. I'm becoming more hopeful that this is going to end spectacularly after all. The 6 months off season suspension for GH, DZ, CVV, LL etc wont be spectacular though. Bit of a non event really. Perhaps we could have a sweep-stake on the start date to liven it up. 31 July? 4th September.....?

Certainly a possibility but it is likely the opposite

They talked in the press about how they worked together the entire time but ultimately USADA needs to take their own statements. If a rider refuses to work with USADA and they have can pull out the statement they made to the Feds and sanction them.....but I doubt they had to do that.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

Certainly a possibility but it is likely the opposite

They talked in the press about how they worked together the entire time but ultimately USADA needs to take their own statements. If a rider refuses to work with USADA and they have can pull out the statement they made to the Feds and sanction them.....but I doubt they had to do that.

By deniers I meant Armstrong, Bryuneel, Del Moral, Marti, Ferrari and the other guy. IMO they are the ones who face perjury charges if they try to defend themselves by denying the USADA allegations at a USADA hearing. I doubt they had to do anything heavy handed to the cooperative riders.

@Markvw, no need to invert the thumbs up for people in the southern hemisphere, the technology does it for you. Thanks for trying tho.

 

[Neworld]

Why should I care? I see scumbags fantastically worse than Lance all the time.

Because maybe you care about someone other than yourself? Maybe you'd like to maintain a level of integrity in your society so that future generations of 'scumbags' are reduced.Maybe not.

I just want to see the cheater get scorned by the sport!

Ok, I agree

 

[thehog]

Bonnie Ford also appeared to make the unqualified statement that the feds are still (currently) investigating the qui tam. That's good news (if true).

Maybe Lance can't start restituting his victims? Start the long process of returning all monies obtained by fraud.

I'd wish he'd stop lying though. Who's he kidding?

 

[Epicycle]

I can guarantee that USADA has been running their own investigation since they first communicated with Floyd. My guess is it behooved them to wait until after the Federal investigation was finished in order to see if they could get their hands on the Feds info. When the Feds investigation was put aside, USADA probably started moving to wrap up their own and start the process of charging Lance and company. I doubt much info flowed back to USADA from the federal investigation, based on what happened in the Balco case. But maybe Joe Papp can give some insight, it's not clear to me how USADA got the info that he was selling EPO (which was used against Leogrande).


I wonder if Matt Damon still has hopes of doing a Lance biopic. Probably a lot easier to get it funded after all of this, Gordon Gekko on a bike is a great angle.

 

[thehog]

Maybe Lance can't start restituting his victims? Start the long process of returning all monies obtained by fraud.

I'd wish he'd stop lying though. Who's he kidding?

Edit: I hope Lance doesn't run out of money. I hope there's enough to go around.

My only concern is his new lawyer looks and sounds cheap. Hate to see his suit collection. I bet they're shiny used car salesman type.

 

[Maxiton]

Of course USADA has to gather its own evidence, take its own statements. But being shown the evidence from the federal investigation is like being given a guidebook, where the whole thing is laid out, the picture already drawn, and all you have to do is color inside the lines.

There was never any factual or procedural basis, that I know of, for dropping the federal investigation just before indictments were issued. And yet it was dropped. Maybe they never intended to drop it forever. Once LA is out of money and options and everything else, a successful prosecution will be like slicing through warm butter with a sharp knife. No reason for them not to do it. After all, they have the Barry Bonds case to live down.