USADA - Armstrong

[my username is flish]

Would that be an eight "ball" to the Austin strip club? Remember those events?

tbh I was more along the lines of the whole uniballer thing, but not surprised at the unexpected drugs twist - story of wonderboy's life, i suppose.

 

[cleanmarine]

Are you going to answer my question?

Do you posses any logical thinking skills? If I gave you the answer as 1+1 would I have to say 2?

 

[Neworld]

Finally! This will be great

Any info about Steffen Kjærgaard?

What about the collusional Vrijman's report that cleared Armstrong ?

Will the USADA be able to find that report and comment on those details as they relate to the UCI?

 

[andy1234]

Do you posses any logical thinking skills? If I gave you the answer as 1+1 would I have to say 2?

So you're not going to answer then?

 

[MarkvW]

Are you going to answer my question?

I sure hope he isn't. Lance vs. God would be really boring.
Maybe something like Lance vs. Mothra? That would be cool.

 

[red_flanders]

Please cease with the personal insults and off-topic religious discussion.

Argue the post, don't insult the poster. Thank you.

 

[soverylarry]

required listening Velocast on USADA...

the podcast i've been waiting for...

http://velocastcc.squarespace.com/race-radio/2012/6/17/scott-plays-switzerland.html

 

[frenchfry]

I think he is very much on script. My sense is that USADA probably have an airtight case and he knows it. If this is true, then his only chance is to muddy the waters of public perception as much as possible to keep his machine running.

Again, assuming USADA has a good case, there will be a ruling, and it will be against him. If he knows this, then his only game plan is to get people doubting the verdict he knows is coming.

And if you look at all their communication thus far, that is exactly what they are doing. I think they have had this scripted for months. Every tweet he makes on the subject was written months ago, and is being tweeted as part of the overall plan. Or at least that's my reading of the whole sordid affair.

This is a key point. From what I have seen of USADA in the past (mostly from the Landis affair) they are extremely serious and above all incredibly discreet. If they are going after Armstrong and his support team now it is because they have an airtight case and because before now they didn't have all the pieces put together yet. Anyone who follows the evolution of doping in cycling, and specifically Armstrong, can easily see why the timing has lead to charges coming out now and not before, and not after. USADA is the antithesis of "star chamber" and that is why Armstrong is in big trouble. Floyd was a catalyst, then the pieces just kept falling in place and the truth just kept coming out. The dike has now burst and Armstrong has been disarmed - even the PR campagn is ineffective.

When Armstrong announced his comeback I said it could be the key to his demise. And it was.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

I'm against doping. Look at my thread " Doping in the Lower Ranks".........But I'm also against self awarded the title of Self-Righteous Monsignors....LOL

Yea, you're against doping, unless your fraud of a hero has to face the music. Then you vomit the same thing that has been vomited here thousands of times for several years. Be original junior.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

I think this sums up 99.999999999% of the public's opinion about this matter.


"Don't care."


But all of the people posting on the forum with their moral high ground and perfect lives they live will continue on, wishing they were something they weren't.

Carry on Joe Papp and the likes.

My goodness, you people don't have an original thought between you. "We all make mistakes so a multimillion dollar fraud should be overlooked!" "None of you are anything and you hate people who are!" Gebbus you guys really must have a handbook and a secret handshake and everything....

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Lance was bluffing. Been known to do that.
"I won't fight any charges. I don't care"

"He is not going to fight?" thinks the USADA.
"Lets add on a few more pages to this powerpoint"
"Lets rush it out before the TdF and the French Tri-Race"

The USADA gets sloppy.
Lance attacks.

Beautiful.

Wow, Landis said this right after The Uniballer said the stuff. Is this you Floyd?

Come on man, fess up.

Grrrrr!!!!!!!!!!

 

[patricknd]

No, normally when people are trying to argue a point they can't back up properly, they throw in words like "everyone" to try and create a false impression of consensus on their side. That is exactly what you did - say "everyone thinks" when all you really meant was "I think".

they use troll a lot, too

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

'...'I haven't read the entire thread yet (stopped at page 20, out of 118), so someone else may have pointed this out:'...'

Why not hand off the evidence gathered to USADA and others, where the bar of proof is lower, if only slightly, and the stakes not quite so high, seemingly. Let them do their thing, resulting in a thoroughly discredited athlete who has been stripped of all racing titles from 1998 onwards; an athlete who has consequently been chewed up in the press and whose charitable organization has long since jettisoned his name or else itself been held up to unfavorable scrutiny; an athlete, moreover, whose support has dwindled to little or nothing and whose coffers have been all but dried up by the effort to fight and survive.

Result? A soft(er) target.

The Justice Department has already done most of the heavy lifting with its investigation. Now it hands the evidence off to USADA, which handles matters from a sporting end and chops our hero down to size. When in the process certain matters of a criminal nature are brought to light, the Justice Depart is justified and indeed obligated to start a new investigation (or, if you prefer, to restart this one). When they do, it will be against a broke, discouraged, discredited person who is proven to be a liar and conspirator, one who, moreover, has few if any genuine athletic accomplishments to his name, no charity to call his own, no corporation or politician willing to go to bat for him, and far fewer fans than before.

In an interview around the time of the Men's Journal article, Armstrong said he wasn't going to contest anything anymore; and if that meant giving up a Tour title or two, that was an outcome he'd be happy with. With this, he was signaling USADA that he'd make a deal, thereby saving them the expense and trouble of a full-court press. Their response is seen in this letter: we don't want a Tour title or two in exchange for going away. We want it all. The figure standing in shadows around the corner is none other than Jeff Novitsky and the U.S. Justice Department. At least, that's how I think it will play out.

Not many comments about this but I agree. It smells orchestrated to me. I think the Qui Tam case might be standing in the shadows might, rather than a criminal investigation though. Why waste taxpayers money when you can impose fines and make taxpayers money?

 

[fatsprintking]

I think that for a lot of people outside of the states, Lance represents America at its best and worse. For me, the real question is how long are American citizen's happy for that to be the case.

Lance falls back on the rules when it suits him, and disregards them when they don't. He uses the media to further his agenda and to drown out any dissent. He creates a situation where you are either with him or against him - with him good/against him evil.

His approach is to some extent a relic of another time when America's influence was different. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and the GFC have left much of the rest of the world questioning whether what was promised was what was received. The use of social media has moved on and people are less happy to accept what is being said at face value.

People are getting pretty sick of people getting away with things just because they have money and power. They are particularly sick of being manipulated by PR strategies.

If Lance in guilty and forced to face the realities of this, it will be a much bigger than just a win for cycling, it will be about how the world has changed. If he is able to duck and weave his way out of it I believe that it will be looked at by the majority of the rest of the world as a case where in America Lance was too big to fail. Either way there are some petty big ripples that are going to travel a long way for a long time.

For me the cycling element is a pretty small part of the story. Cycling was just a vehicle for what is a much bigger story.

 

[Race Radio]

Not many comments about this but I agree. It smells orchestrated to me. I think the Qui Tam case might be standing in the shadows might, rather than a criminal investigation though. Why waste taxpayers money when you can impose fines and make taxpayers money?

It was not orchestration. USADA did not "Use" the Feds evidence in the traditional sense. They used it for leverage but they would take their own depos

I agree, Qui Tam is the next big hit. Criminal would be far off.

 

[gerundium]

Uhm i just thought of something that could totally be off base but could also be interesting to discuss.

The USADA letter specifies that the 09/10 test results are completely consistent with the use of EPO (or was it blood doping i forgot).

how is the likelihood that the 09/10 samples WERE negatives. as in, armstrong did come back clean.

Could they reverse the argument and point towards his 09/10 values being off in a negative sense as an argument for doping during his tour wins?

EDIT: if im being dumb due to regulations / technical side / whatever, just call it out. it's just an option i just thought of.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

I think that for a lot of people outside of the states, Lance represents America at its best and worse. For me, the real question is how long are American citizen's happy for that to be the case.

Lance falls back on the rules when it suits him, and disregards them when they don't. He uses the media to further his agenda and to drown out any dissent. He creates a situation where you are either with him or against him - with him good/against him evil.

His approach is to some extent a relic of another time when America's influence was different. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and the GFC have left much of the rest of the world questioning whether what was promised was what was received. The use of social media has moved on and people are less happy to accept what is being said at face value.

People are getting pretty sick of people getting away with things just because they have money and power. They are particularly sick of being manipulated by PR strategies.

If Lance in guilty and forced to face the realities of this, it will be a much bigger than just a win for cycling, it will be about how the world has changed. If he is able to duck and weave his way out of it I believe that it will be looked at by the majority of the rest of the world as a case where in America Lance was too big to fail. Either way there are some petty big ripples that are going to travel a long way for a long time.

For me the cycling element is a pretty small part of the story. Cycling was just a vehicle for what is a much bigger story.

Lance Armstrong embodies the very Gestalt of American Capitalism. Unfortunately, many in our country secretly love the cheater who makes a fortune. Our economic system is much more embodied in people like Armstrong and the Snake Oil Salesman than the fictional hard working individual who worked his way to the top fair and square. People like Armstrong are reviled in the shallowest way when they are caught. People feign disgust, but secretly, there are many people like his defenders here. They don't really care if he cheated. He made a lot of money. He bedded a lot of hot chicks. He had an endless pool built in his backyard. That's what really matters to them. Have I screwed up? Have I ever cheated? Yea. The difference is that I don't wear it as a badge of honor. I went to the people I hurt and asked forgiveness. I took it as a bottom to build from. I don't despise him out of righteous indignation, I despise him because he isn't man enough to live an honest life.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

Lance Armstrong embodies the very Gestalt of American Capitalism. Unfortunately, many in our country secretly love the cheater who makes a fortune.

Meh. Capitalism relies on a legal system that bans fraud and enforces against fraud effectively.

It's a misunderstanding and/or misrepresentation of capitalism to say that capitalism is about cheating to make a fortune.

Capitalism relies and flourishes on honesty.

 

[Maxiton]

Not many comments about this but I agree. It smells orchestrated to me. I think the Qui Tam case might be standing in the shadows might, rather than a criminal investigation though. Why waste taxpayers money when you can impose fines and make taxpayers money?

Because they (DOJ attorneys) are, by nature, pugnacious, tenacious, aggressive competitors - in particular, from what we hear, a certain Mr. Novitsky. That's the first thing. Second, if they feel certain crimes have been committed and that this can be proven in court, they probably feel a certain moral and professional obligation to do so. Third, they already have a lot of time and money and thought wound up in this, and would not like to walk away from it. Fourth, a broke and winless, guilty Armstrong, against whom the press and public have turned, would make a pretty easy target. Like all beasts of prey, prosecutors probably like easy targets. Fifth . . . . but those four are probably enough.

It was not orchestration. USADA did not "Use" the Feds evidence in the traditional sense. They used it for leverage but they would take their own depos

I agree, Qui Tam is the next big hit. Criminal would be far off.

If they could get the qui tam thing first, that would certainly justify the expense of all this and make subsequent prosecution even easier.

 

[TexPat]

I think that for a lot of people outside of the states, Lance represents America at its best and worse. For me, the real question is how long are American citizen's happy for that to be the case.

Lance falls back on the rules when it suits him, and disregards them when they don't. He uses the media to further his agenda and to drown out any dissent. He creates a situation where you are either with him or against him - with him good/against him evil.

His approach is to some extent a relic of another time when America's influence was different. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and the GFC have left much of the rest of the world questioning whether what was promised was what was received. The use of social media has moved on and people are less happy to accept what is being said at face value.

People are getting pretty sick of people getting away with things just because they have money and power. They are particularly sick of being manipulated by PR strategies.

If Lance in guilty and forced to face the realities of this, it will be a much bigger than just a win for cycling, it will be about how the world has changed. If he is able to duck and weave his way out of it I believe that it will be looked at by the majority of the rest of the world as a case where in America Lance was too big to fail. Either way there are some petty big ripples that are going to travel a long way for a long time.

For me the cycling element is a pretty small part of the story. Cycling was just a vehicle for what is a much bigger story.

Brilliant assessment. This is very similar to my own view, as well as many Kiwis I've spoken to.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Meh. Capitalism relies on a legal system that bans fraud and enforces against fraud effectively.

It's a misunderstanding and/or misrepresentation of capitalism to say that capitalism is about cheating to make a fortune.

Capitalism relies and flourishes on honesty.

Nice unrealistic take on the reality of capitalism. Capitalism has not, and never will proceed upon such utopian ideas. It's a game of 3 card Monty. I realize that in textbooks it is supposed to work one way, but in the real world it plays by a completely different set of rules. See the most recent financial crisis for clarification.

As is the case with doping in cycling, the regulatory agencies are always behind in terms of knowing where the current fraud is taking place. They are okay at dissecting it when it's caught, but knowing where the greed will find its next outlet has never been their strong suit.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

While I agree that Lance (or his situation) is bigger than cycling, or even bigger than sports. I don't know that the ripples will be that big. But it certainly is endemic to the world we live in.

 

[fatsprintking]

While I agree that Lance (or his situation) is bigger than cycling, or even bigger than sports. I don't know that the ripples will be that big. But it certainly is endemic to the world we live in.

I might be wrong, but what I am saying is that for a lot of people around the world, Lance is symbolic of of the United States.

I am mounting the argument that for a lot of people the judgement will not be on Lance Armstrong, but rather America. Americans argue about whether Lance took drugs. I think the rest of the world accepts that he did and now wants to see how the country deals with this reality. Will it accept it or will it be a case of denial, outrage and ultimatelly sweeping under the carpet?

Previous behaviour would suggest the latter, but maybe times are changing.

 

[Boeing]

No thank you.

I am going to leave this thread alone as it appears that I am only being baited and flamed by people who have their minds made up.

Junior College;

Back up and see if you can make an argument with out you in it.

 

[PosterBill]

What a joke.

Way to tie in some global political viewpoint you might have into a freaking sports story. Thanks for the laugh