USADA - Armstrong

[MartinGT]

Well I am delighted with the news. A fair dinkum as it gets considering it is America, committal hearing and then a trial after that if the hearing finds enough evidence to sustain the charges. New testing of old samples with new technology is what is bringing down those who thought they could escape.

Hard evidence in court, that is what I want so we can get to the bottom of this mess.

I am no fan of Armstrong, the sides were chosen well before his last tours. If found guilty, Cycling will not suffer, the millions of well meaning followers will. Whatever the result, it shows that Cycling wants the truth, no matter the consequences.

Cycling is the most heavily tested sport in the world, seek and ye shall find always applies. If other sports delved as deeply, they would find as many drug cheats as have been found in Cycling and more.

Bring it on.

Yes, but its cycling that gets a sh!t name because of it.

I know a lot of football (soccer) and rugby fans that always ignortaly chirp on how dirty cycling is and it hurts because those two sports, Rugby especially must be bad if not worse.

 

[fatsprintking]

Ohhh it's coming... Along with high fives and fist bumps and hoopla about the truth finally having it's day. But the truth can be a funny thing once that genie is out of the bottle. And I am not saying in any way that it shouldn't be... but it brings with it some other truths that we don't really want to admit to.

Like... We all support doping, and we always have. We tune in, watch, and follow a sport that is riddled with doping, and always has been... and we've always known it. To dispute this basic premise is to say that you really don't know Jack Sh!t about the sport, and that you believe in Santa Claus.

If you have been a "Fan" for say twenty years, consider that you have never seen a Pro Tour, Classic, or GT event that was not a direct outcome of organized doping. You have been cheering it on for decades... and you know it. Your cycling heros, the icons of the sports, are all as dirty as an old dish rag. It may have been a little more ridiculously blatant back in the 90's as they were getting the dose dialed in, but no one wanted to see it, and they couldn't really prove it, so we all just pretended, and cheered any way. Now they have it all down to a science, and they just shrug as interested parties try to prove it... well sort of try.

But we don't really want a clean sport. There are many here who say that they do. But clean sport is boring. Should an athlete actually succumb to the physical stresses of the sport... you know, act like a real human and falter from the effort, there will be a new thread here in the Clinic from those same people about why that rider sucks now. We all want to see Pantani or Armstrong, or Rasmussen or Contador rip the legs off their rivals with a super human attack on the final climb. Anything less is just p!ss poor racing, and more fodder for the Forum.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but it's been like Professional Wrestling for some time now, and we are all still sitting here ring side waiting for the next event. But hey... don't feel bad. Try naming a sport at the professional level that is clean, Yeah... I can't do it either. The interesting thing is that the sports where the doping is the worst, and the fans care the least, are financially doing the very best. Like the NFL. Gee... if we could only be honest, and come to grips with the fact that we don't give a sh!t either, maybe cycling would be less vilified and we could all get back to cheering those super human efforts brought to us through better science, that we have come to know and love.

Many will cheer the recent developments with Lance and USADA. He is after all the Hulk Hogan of our sport. The guy we love to hate, because Lord knows, he's an a$$hole, and karmic payback is a b!tch. But as he burns justifiably on the funeral pyre of public opinion, I will be listening for that sucking sound. You will probably hear it too... it will be the sound of money leaving the sport. Sponsorship money, television money, endorsement money, prize money, rider salaries, all making the high pitched squeaking sound of air leaking out of a balloon.

Lance will undoubtedly go down. It will be great theater like Tiger Woods, and it is absolutely what should happen. But I can't help but heave a big sigh, because the media impact of invalidating seven TDF wins will send cycling back down a rabbit hole of obscurity from which it may never fully recover... all it seems, because we can't come to grips with the facts that like NFL fans, we'd all probably be better off not giving a sh!t about something that we always knew was there... and which actually makes us want to tune in to watch.

I was a cyclist when the sport lived in the rabbit hole in my country 30 years ago and will still be a cyclist if it returns there.

If it has to burn down so it can be rebuilt into what it has the capacity to be then thats OK with me. I would rather a sport with an honest soul after 20 years in the wilderness than to see the guff that the sport has become continue.

 

[rata de sentina]

Yup. BPC, who is now Technical Descent, and Polish destroyed this forum. It is a shadow what it used to be.

That's only because people persist in engaging with these clowns.

 

[pastronef]

from Dim twitter

Levi says that all hes ever taken is over the counter hayfever medicine, and Horner produces a TUE for memory loss after last years crash

 

[johnnycash]

Yes. Because that happened after Festina, Puerto et al didn't it?

It'll be ok, golf is fine after Tigers shananigans and its not like doping isn't associated with cycling already. I'm not sure LA is as pure evil as some might suggest, he has done some good for cancer awareness and that is a good thing despite his motives.

I thought he said that if another doping accusation came his way he wouldn't fight it? Seems to be fighting this.

They have to pursue him, and prosecute. Whatever the cost to US tax payers, its called Due Process. Enforcing the law is/should not be about cost effectiveness.

The Tdf's can't be given to anyone else though, just write those years off. As the UCI have done with Riis' Tdf win.

 

[rata de sentina]

Where does the USADA charge letter state that it relies on testimony of Landis? Or is every American cyclist who rode for USPS/Disco now a liar too? Did they also lie to USADA when interviewed by them?

You should know that someone who posts like that is not worthy of your attention. Logic and reason are not required only a large can of trollicide.

 

[Benotti69]

He'll be regretting not re-hiring Landis until the day he dies. He probably could have just paid a million bucks at the time... and got him on to some other pro tour team.

I only got as far as page 15 before replying to this. But yes I think that Armstrong, Weisel, Bruyneel and others will regret this for ever and for what a measly contract to ride as a pro for another year or two.

And I think this will be the only thing Armstrong will regret as for all the other stuff he will still believe he was right.

 

[poupou]

Now. Watch the sponsors run and the sport wither up and die. Now, watch.

Lance and Bruyneel had already killed sport to replace it by mafia.

 

[pastronef]

from here: mobile.twitter.com/fmk_RoI/

David Walsh, Pierre Ballester, Paul Kimmage. Betsy Andreu, Frankie Andreu. Emma O'Reilly. Filippo Simeoni. Floyd Landis, Tyler Hamilton.
Christophe Bassons, Greg LeMond. **** Pound. Bob Hamman. Stephen Swart. Mike Anderson. Thank you all.

 

[TourOfSardinia]

from Dim twitter

What became of Dim /TeamSkyFans he seems to have left these forums?

 

[BroDeal]

What became of Dim /TeamSkyFans he seems to have left these forums?

He runs the velorooms.com forum. That is where a lot of the old CN posters went when they could not take this place anymore.

 

[airstream]

Lance and Bruyneel had already killed sport to replace it by mafia.

Why so, only him? Bruyneel and Armstrong just embodied the most successful long-term cycling business project. Until recently UCI clearly knew 99% of the peloton doped and if trying to handle that by rights they would have to kill procycling entirely, so UCI didn't touch anyone. All prominent DS's (Waughters, Saiz, Riis bribed UCI to some extent. They know how the system works but none of them ever had a rider resource to win so much as Bruyneel did.

 

[webvan]

ok after reading this http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/armstrongcharging0613.pdf i might have to rebut myself

in the section under "Review Board Process" it has this to say (last paragraph)



In short, if LA had have stayed retired they could do nothing. Now that they have evidence he doped on return, they can use all his 13 years from 1998 to 2010 to hang him up by the short and curlys, and strip him of everything.
If that happens, it would have to go down as the biggest failed comeback in the history of sport

The other thing i noted in the letter was all 5 are being charged as a consolidated case. If one goes down they all go down.

Well they could still have gone after him for anything within the 8 years of their filing but the 2009/2010 suspicious data certainly doesn't hurt.

As someone pointed out since, the real "matchpoint moment" (W.Allen movie from 2005) was when Landis came knocking for a job and was turned down, actually it wasn't even that, he just wanted LA & Cie to help get him team into the 2010 TOC. Without Landis spilling the beans following their refusal (I guess they didn't trust him to keep quiet about their help) he would probably have been fine.

 

[SilentAssassin]

The difference between the Federal investigation and USADA's investigation is the Feds were looking to prove a criminal act had occured(ie, tax evasion, misappropriation of gov money etc..). USADA is not looking to prove a criminal act, they are only looking to prove evidence of doping.

Actually they were looking to prove evidence of doping because one of the supposed schemes was to sell their usps road bikes in order to fund their doping scheme. In other words the doping scheme was the motive for the misappropriation of gov money.

 

[thingswelike]

Someone mentioned that they didn't know if José Marti was currently active within a team.

Well Dopeology has him down as a trainer for Saxo Bank 2011/12

http://www.dopeology.org/people/José-Pepi_Marti/

 

[JPM London]

Actually they were looking to prove evidence of doping because one of the supposed schemes was to sell their usps road bikes in order to fund their doping scheme. In other words the doping scheme was the motive for the misappropriation of gov money.

Yes, but I think Frizzles point was that the feds could not just prove doping as that is/was not a criminal act in and of itself - the feds had to also prove the more difficult stuff.

Whether or not they did anything illegal is OTOH completely irrelevant to the doping case from USADA.

So although the two cases walk down the same tracks, they've different focus points...

 

[Animal]

Now. Watch the sponsors run and the sport wither up and die. Now, watch.

What shiit!

People will still ride bikes if the whole sorry commercial circus collapses!

 

[SilentAssassin]

Double post

 

[hrotha]

Help me out here, guys. Where are all the tweets from current pros saying LA is the lowest of the low etc etc?

 

[SilentAssassin]

I don't know cycling is great to watch but a ruling that will have lance stripped of all titles will hurt the sport. Mostly Americans will be turned off from watching pro cycling but that doesn't mean it'll turn them off from participating in cycling.

A lance guilty ruling would mean a lot of people in he USA won't watch cycling. It'll hurt the ratings and maybe sponsorship revenue long term but it won't kill the sport it just won't be aired over here as much which is a raw deal for us americans rooting for the true people's champion denis menchov. Boxing is far more corrupt than cycling. Worst case scenario cycling will continue to be one of those cult sports to watch.

Regardless say what you want about lance but he put cycling on the map. He made the sport popular on a global scale.

If he's guilty I hope he does get his titles stripped. But if the guilty verdict lies mainly with the eyewitness testimonies of dirty riders who have lied in the past, then it will ruin the sport. It sets a precedent that riders can be banned just by pointing the finger at them. Lance is a brash and obnoxious character who has undoubtedly made enemies in the sport. Let's face it he's a cocky American bad asse that put the smack down on all European riders for a decade. If your in the sport as long as lance has been you are bound to have enemies. So I'm not surprised there are witnesses...and that's why you can't rely on witnesses especially if they are the people that have tested positive for doping.

 

[yourwelcome]

us americans rooting for the true people's champion denis menchov.

LOL.

Then again, I guess Pantani is revered as a people's hero too.

 

[yourwelcome]

Help me out here, guys. Where are all the tweets from current pros saying LA is the lowest of the low etc etc?

Don't know about pro cyclists, but Daniel Benson was clearly so overcome with excitement that he forgot to try and appear objective, or even proofread his copy. The current article on the Cycling News homepage contains this:

"Armstrong... (blah blah)... his defiant vitriol... (blah blah)... he appeared to tired of fighting authorities".

 

[T-Nielsen]

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/47803607/ns/sports-cycling/

Bob Roll being fair and balanced.

 

[henryg]

Lance got offered the same deal as the teammates. He could be in the same filthy bed as his fellow cheaters. Lance, though, chose to maintain the lie!

Don't be so sure. I doubt they offered Lance immunity. If they did not, he did not have to say anything that would incriminate him. Had he lied he would have been charged with perjury or if he was granted immunity and refused to answer questions he would have been jailed for not answering the Grand Jury questions after having been granted immunity.

 

[Benotti69]

In order for this thread not to go AWOL can posters please ignore the posts of known Trolls

Polish
HughMoore
Techical Descent
EusibioKing
ChrisE


to name but a few.

USADA operates differently to Feds and criminal investigations are therefore the burden of proof is different. It will be very hard for Armstrong to beat this considering the number of ex riders, 10 who have testified against him.
There is the possibility that those who have administered the EPO, HGH, Corticoids etc have testified, we dont know.

But that Armstrong is reduced to proclaiming tested X amount of times and never positive means nothing and Marion Jones fully agrees