USADA - Armstrong

[TourOfSardinia]

Exactly!

They say they're doing this to keep the sport of cycling clean, but all they're doing is brining more negativity into an already tainted image of cycling!

It's Lance that is negative - he never tested positive!

 

[BillytheKid]

It's Lance that is negative - he never tested positive!

Nice quip, but more's the point. Cycling is under attack. I am dubious that other sports don't have the even a bigger problem.

Sports dollars are tight. Other sport interests stand to benefit from such a high dollar sport.

You might win the battle, but lose the war.

 

[spetsa]

85 pages in this thread and no one has questioned why his "coach" isn't named in the charges.

Chris Carmicheal is either celebrating his luck or he is one of the non-cyclists that provided testimony. My bet is he turned on LA.

 

[Berzin]

George Hincapie was indeed interviewed by the Feds, just in case anyone was wondering-

"One of the cyclists who agreed to be interviewed by federal investigators after receiving a subpoena was George Hincapie, Mr. Armstrong's longtime lieutenant who raced alongside him in all of his Tour de France victories."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303410404577467004057970544.html

 

[VeloCity]

Nice quip, but more's the point. Cycling is under attack. I am dubious that other sports don't have the even a bigger problem.

Sports dollars are tight. Other sport interests stand to benefit from such a high dollar sport.

You might win the battle, but lose the war.

How exactly is "cycling" under attack?

 

[MarkvW]

Nice quip, but more's the point. Cycling is under attack. I am dubious that other sports don't have the even a bigger problem.

Sports dollars are tight. Other sport interests stand to benefit from such a high dollar sport.

You might win the battle, but lose the war.

What war? "Lance Armstrong's War?"

 

[ChrisE]

You're being very vague about the fearful consequences you're touting. It isn't complicated - the risk of discovery was there all the time. He gets caught - he gets sanctioned, eg by losing his Tour victories, his status. That's how it works.

I laid out why this will go off the rails, and its bigger implications in an earlier post(s). Scroll up a few pages or use the search function.

 

[ChrisE]

85 pages in this thread and no one has questioned why his "coach" isn't named in the charges.

Chris Carmicheal is either celebrating his luck or he is one of the non-cyclists that provided testimony. My bet is he turned on LA.

Interesting. Thanks for bringing this up. Maybe it can be discussed between the screeching.

 

[straydog]

So....what's happening? How have things been? What did I miss?

Oh....nothing. Same as usual in here, just a few more trouser tents on display from some of the cult members.

Ok, in all seriousness....firstly to Race Radio: You took it well when the feds dropped the case, so, honestly, I know you must be enjoying this and props where it's due. I sincerely hope this hasn't further affected your weekly rides with Polish, I know he is terrible for doing his turns on the front when he is upset. God knows that TexPat and I have barely looked each other in the eye at our monthly hot yoga sessions since all this broke.

OK, I know this has been an exciting few days for some of you. But slow down dears, we have been here before and look what happened then. All those jokes wasted about LA doing the "perp walk", who was going to be on the top bunk in jail, how long he was going to get etc etc etc.

Now if some of you slowed down and wiped the saliva from your mouths before you read the USADA letter you might have noticed a few things:

Firstly:

"While the doping allegations brought by USADA expand beyond the eight year statute of limitations, USADA states that all of the respondents took part in doping activities within the eight year statute of limitations and that corroborating evidence from beyond the eight year statute of limitations can still be utilised to prove the conspiracy"

In summation, for anyone who may be suffering from self abuse induced myopia, or just skim read it, this is a pretty clear indication that USADA is trying to introduce evidence from pre 2004 to corroborate the charges they are trying to bring related to after that period. It doesn't relate necessarily to charges pre 2004. I think they are fully aware that pre 2004, there is not much that the WADA statute of limitations will let them do. Those quoting the Eddy Helleybuck case forget that it didn't reach CAS. It was only heard by the American Arbitration Panel. Now, why would they need further evidence? Could it be that the only direct evidence they have from 2004 is good old Floyd? Floyd, who has shown himself to be such a reliable witness and has covered himself in so much glory for his behaviour at his own arbitration hearings (remember that call to Lemond) and his continued denial of having actually failed that test in 2006. What appears to be happening is that Travis Tryhard is attempting to argue that testimony from riders pre 2004, will prove that Armstrong was a doper then and therefore must have continued doping during and after 2004. As for the 2009 and 2010 blood values. Well, if they were consistent with manipulation, why has it taken USADA 3 years to come to that conclusion? Why did they not charge him earlier, before he had retired from cycling?

Honestly, this seems like a last throw of the dice from Tryhard. The scatter gun stategy. Throw everything and see if something, anything sticks.

I can't see CAS, and this could go straight to CAS, as Tim Montgomery chose to do, allowing anything from pre 2004....so no Tyler....no Emma O'Reilly....no ex posties...no frankie (or Betsey)....and thankfully, for his own self respect, no Greg.

And for those of you speculating about GH's retirement. Have any of you considered that maybe, by retiring he avoids any sanction for not responding to demands to testify? After all, the arbitration panel cannot force him to.

It seems that WADA know or suspect that Floyd's testimony alone might not stand much scrutiny or that his veracity as a reliable witness might well be questioned, and that their accusation of blood manipulation in 09 and 10 is speculative at best and are therefore trying to find a way to introduce further corroborating evidence from prior to 2004. Well, Let's see how that pans out.

Worst/ Best case scenario (depending on which side you butter your bread), and I agree it is possible, is that CAS hails the all avenging super hero of truth that is Floyd and ban LA for two years commencing 2004....backdated.

So two further asterisks in the TDF records....Wow....that's gonna soooo be worth it.

p.s.

I did hear a completely unconfirmed rumour that if Tygart is successful with this one, and therefore doesn't get fired, that he is going after Antequil next, then Coppi and then Fignon.

Peace

 

[MarkvW]

So....what's happening? How have things been? What did I miss?

Oh....nothing. Same as usual in here, just a few more trouser tents on display from some of the cult members.

Ok, in all seriousness....firstly to Race Radio: You took it well when the feds dropped the case, so, honestly, I know you must be enjoying this and props where it's due. I sincerely hope this hasn't further affected your weekly rides with Polish, I know he is terrible for doing his turns on the front when he is upset. God knows that TexPat and I have barely looked each other in the eye at our monthly hot yoga sessions since all this broke.

OK, I know this has been an exciting few days for some of you. But slow down dears, we have been here before and look what happened then. All those jokes wasted about LA doing the "perp walk", who was going to be on the top bunk in jail, how long he was going to get etc etc etc.

Now if some of you slowed down and wiped the saliva from your mouths before you read the USADA letter you might have noticed a few things:

Firstly:

"While the doping allegations brought by USADA expand beyond the eight year statute of limitations, USADA states that all of the respondents took part in doping activities within the eight year statute of limitations and that corroborating evidence from beyond the eight year statute of limitations can still be utilised to prove the conspiracy"

In summation, for anyone who may be suffering from self abuse induced myopia, or just skim read it, this is a pretty clear indication that USADA is trying to introduce evidence from pre 2004 to corroborate the charges they are trying to bring related to after that period. It doesn't relate necessarily to charges pre 2004. I think they are fully aware that pre 2004, there is not much that the WADA statute of limitations will let them do. Those quoting the Eddy Helleybuck case forget that it didn't reach CAS. It was only heard by the American Arbitration Panel. Now, why would they need further evidence? Could it be that the only direct evidence they have from 2004 is good old Floyd? Floyd, who has shown himself to be such a reliable witness and has covered himself in so much glory for his behaviour at his own arbitration hearings (remember that call to Lemond) and his continued denial of having actually failed that test in 2006. What appears to be happening is that Travis Tryhard is attempting to argue that testimony from riders pre 2004, will prove that Armstrong was a doper then and therefore must have continued doping during and after 2004. As for the 2009 and 2010 blood values. Well, if they were consistent with manipulation, why has it taken USADA 3 years to come to that conclusion? Why did they not charge him earlier, before he had retired from cycling?

Honestly, this seems like a last throw of the dice from Tryhard. The scatter gun stategy. Throw everything and see if something, anything sticks.

I can't see CAS, and this could go straight to CAS, as Tim Montgomery chose to do, allowing anything from pre 2004....so no Tyler....no Emma O'Reilly....no ex posties...no frankie (or Betsey)....and thankfully, for his own self respect, no Greg.

And for those of you speculating about GH's retirement. Have any of you considered that maybe, by retiring he avoids any sanction for not responding to demands to testify? After all, the arbitration panel cannot force him to.

It seems that WADA know or suspect that Floyd's testimony alone might not stand much scrutiny or that his veracity as a reliable witness might well be questioned, and that their accusation of blood manipulation in 09 and 10 is speculative at best and are therefore trying to find a way to introduce further corroborating evidence from prior to 2004. Well, Let's see how that pans out.

Worst/ Best case scenario (depending on which side you butter your bread), and I agree it is possible, is that CAS hails the all avenging super hero of truth that is Floyd and ban LA for two years commencing 2004....backdated.

So two further asterisks in the TDF records....Wow....that's gonna soooo be worth it.

p.s.

I did hear a completely unconfirmed rumour that if Tygart is successful with this one, and therefore doesn't get fired, that he is going after Antequil next, then Coppi and then Fignon.

Peace

But it is going to be a REALLY good show!!

 

[mastersracer]

good commentary here:

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/06/15/opinion/pearlman-lance-armstrong/index.html

 

[BillytheKid]

What war? "Lance Armstrong's War?"

It applies to the concept that more damage may come from it than it's worth.

Other sports interests will not mind picking up the "dope-sport dropouts" and the disalussioned that will fade away as they once did here for other reason in the distant past.

I do think it is true some are so focus on bringing Armstrong down that they are not aware of the damage to the sport. Maybe more so here in the States. It's a sad affair.

I worked with sports writers for years, most thougth little of cycling.

The war that's lost is the sport dies. Maybe in the long run it will be for the best, but I could do without it. For me, Armstrong never made cycling dirty, although it may have made him so. It would have been his choice however.

 

[Race Radio]

Don't care what you think of lance, usada really shouldn't repeatedly accuse someone of something with zero hard evidence. If you have evidence, convict someone. If you don't, then it's done.

.......Link?

 

[Master50]

Yes. I bet AC is overjoyed right about now. LA finally gets his comeuppance for being mean to him at dinner and taking his wheels.

You missed my point, AC might be on the same bus as LA. Do you really think they went through so much trouble to prosecute AC over previously undetectable levels of clen? Why wouln't Johan look after Bert too? For A C fans I might not buy my Vuelta tickets too early. Just following the yellow brick road.

 

[ChrisE]

But it is going to be a REALLY good show!!

You're talking out of both sides of your mouth again.

Maybe you should square your predictions about LA rolling over in that other thread with the good show you will want to watch when he fights it.

 

[Oldman]

It applies to the concept that more damage may come from it than it's worth.

Other sports interests will not mind picking up the "dope-sport dropouts" and the disalussioned that will fade away as they once did here for other reason in the distant past.

I do think it is true some are so focus on bringing Armstrong down that they are not aware of the damage to the sport. Maybe more so here in the States. It's a sad affair.

I worked with sports writers for years, most thougth little of cycling.

The war that's lost is the sport dies. Maybe in the long run it will be for the best, but I could do without it. For me Armstrong never made cycling dirty, although it may have made him so. It would have been his choice however.

Armstrong made the choice early in his amateur career which could be chalked up to absent parenting or just and ethical base that justified winning at all costs. That's a sad point to consider but very likely.
As for the sport; we've seen a huge influx of new riders, most of which don't relate to Armstrong as much as Tyler Farrar and many local riders now on the National/international scene. Few believe Armstrong or anyone from those Tours to be clean. They do believe the scrutiny has improved the clarity of the sport as do I; a very hardened cynic. The argument to ignore the crime because it could do more damage completely ignores the peripeheral "crimes" of society that Armstrong continues to commit: the diefication via Cancer and benefits he enjoys from that farce are far worse than doping in cycling. Would exposing his past hurt cancer funding? Like cycling I think it could be just the opposite as it would expose flaky "charities" that exploit donations for overhead and awareness instead of actual research. Thoughtful donors would do their homework and give to foundations that actually do some good instead of providing pimp funds for a hack sportsman.

 

[Captain Sensible]

Yes it is a huge waste of tax payer’s money.
Since USADA refuse to give all the evidence or present the evidence to Lance then we will have to wait and see them at the hearing. I am not sure there will be a hearing. I imagine a few things will happen before then. Probably Lance will sue USADA and if congress gets involved it will be the end for whoever started this witch hunt in the first place.

Not being a American and knowing nothing of how your laws work is the above post possable ?.

 

[pedaling squares]

85 pages in this thread and no one has questioned why his "coach" isn't named in the charges.

Chris Carmicheal is either celebrating his luck or he is one of the non-cyclists that provided testimony. My bet is he turned on LA.

I don't know that Carmichael has any relevance. My feeling is that he has been little more than a dust cover on this book, and that Armstrong received his training programs from Dr Ferrari.

 

[131313]

85 pages in this thread and no one has questioned why his "coach" isn't named in the charges.

Chris Carmicheal is either celebrating his luck or he is one of the non-cyclists that provided testimony. My bet is he turned on LA.

Spetsa, I'm willing to bet that you've had more impact on LA's training than his "coach", Chris C. His real coach was, indeed, implicated. That is nothing more than a business arrangement, lending his name to dupe masters idiots out of their money. "For $1,000 a month, Lance Armstrong's Coach will tell you to go ride your bike!". Sheer genius.

 

[VeloCity]

I do think it is true some are so focus on bringing Armstrong down that they are not aware of the damage to the sport. Maybe more so here in the States. It's a sad affair.

So again, what's the alternative? The USADA just ignores the evidence because it's Lance Armstrong?

The war that's lost is the sport dies. Maybe in the long run it will be for the best, but I could do without it. For me, Armstrong never made cycling dirty, although it may have made him so. It would have been his choice however.

Please. Exposing Armstrong as a doper won't bring the sport down.

 

[red_flanders]

So again, what's the alternative? The USADA just ignores the evidence because it's Lance Armstrong?

He's too big to fail.

 

[Race Radio]

Thanks for the kind words straydog

I doubt it will go to CAS. Lance knows he can't win. The case is far from "scatter gun stategy". USADA has over a dozen direct witnesses. If Lance fights it in the traditional manner he loses. BTW, George does not avoid a sanction if he does not talk and retires

He knows he has no chance fighting the USADA case so he is focusing on the "Unconstitutional" route. I expect he will attempt to fight USADA in a Federal court but will fail as he signed the WADA code when he took a Professional license.

The Obfuscation machine will be full gas for the next year. Gotta give hope to the groupies

 

[ChrisE]

You missed my point, AC might be on the same bus as LA. Do you really think they went through so much trouble to prosecute AC over previously undetectable levels of clen? Why wouln't Johan look after Bert too? For A C fans I might not buy my Vuelta tickets too early. Just following the yellow brick road.

I was making a joke, thus the emoticon. Contadoper's rep in here went up several notches when LA started being mean to him. That buys alot of sympathy and selective memory loss in the clinic.

I agree with your assessment, but we will see the fallout. AC etal are not happy this is happening. GH is not happy, Levi, etc. Even JV with his team clean being able to compete with dopers beating tests and bribing officials lol. But hey, CN let us know that Simeoni and Bassons are ok with it so it is all good.

 

[Race Radio]

Not being a American and knowing nothing of how your laws work is the above post possable ?.

No.....it is just wishful thinking

 

[Polish]

Yes it is a huge waste of tax payer’s money.
Since USADA refuse to give all the evidence or present the evidence to Lance then we will have to wait and see them at the hearing. I am not sure there will be a hearing. I imagine a few things will happen before then. Probably Lance will sue USADA and if congress gets involved it will be the end for whoever started this witch hunt in the first place.

Of course it is a waste of taxpayer money - but THIS time Lance has the power to stop the waste. Lance can nip this witch hunt right in the bud.

Lance could NOT stop the waste with the Fed Investigation. The Feds will do whatever they want. They ended up clearing Lance, but a waste just the same. Why spend millions and millions of dollars telling us what we already know? Oh well, at least Lance was cleared.

But this next witch hunt - the USADA witch hunt - Lance can stop. Stop the waste of taxpayer money. Write a letter pointing out the Spite and Malice and refusing to be witch hunted. "See ya witch hunters. Wouldnt want to be ya". There will be NO hearing. Good Lord, why would there be a hearing? That is just what the money wasting witch hunters are hoping for. Lance will nip that right in the bud. Nip nip nip.

Although, there probably needs to be a Federal Investigation into the USADA.
Something certainly does NOT smell right with this "case". File a motion maybe?