USADA - Armstrong

[JA.Tri]

Time: several months hence.

Headline: Lance alleges AC doped on numerous occasions "and I saw him do it".

Alberto's response: I like my credibility!


(s****; but boy howdy that would be justified and appropriate for Lance to be on the receiving end at least once)

 

[frenchfry]

This crap is orchestrated by Lance - he's trying to destabilise the alleged witnesses and sabotage the Tour. Notice he doesn't complain about leaks when he's making them.

This is what I think, and it appears to be working. He has hired the best, no question.

 

[rhubroma]

Slightly off topic, but just realized there are perhaps strong similarities between the Armstrong crowd, Livestrong, etc., and the Scientologist hierarchy. Big bucks using legal heavy hitters if you dare challenge them.

"Hey, we're all just raising our kids, doing great things for healthcare, and being patriotic Americans!"

Poor guys who speak the truth about how the above got there! I hear USDA is reported to have been concerned about witness intimidation from the start.

(Correction: USADA ! We don't want d'em intimidation of any agriCULTural. species, ya know?)

That would indeed seem to be the case Parot23. Comes with the territory of being a cult, you know. Like the mormons. Only in Murica.

I like your hypothesis.

 

[D-Queued]

That would indeed seem to be the case Parot23. Comes with the territory of being a cult, you know. Like the mormons. Only in Murica.

I like your hypothesis.

It is an interesting parallel.

But, such tactics are not limited to Scientology.

Even if that cult* is the mother ship, there are enough PR specialists familiar with the dirty tricks, attempts to seize momentum, influence juries and the public by controlling headlines through an offensive defense that 'guidance' could be inspired by, but totally independent of any reference organization and/or its members.

There are definite commonalities with Floyd's original disinformation campaign (attack the source...), and even with Tyler's campaign. Rather than involvement of a cult, it might be even more intriguing to see if there is any commonality in any of the advisors. Is there anyone working with Lance now that worked for either Tyler or Floyd before?

Please recall that WADA has introduced a couple of 'Floyd' rules. One being that the ADA's can respond to misplaced slagging and unfounded criticism. Prior to that, they were not allowed to comment on PR smear campaigns.

*Just to be clear that I am not supporting Scientology in any way here.

Dave.

 

[iZnoGouD]

Lance Armstrong on facebook:

"So let me get this straight....come in and tell USADA exactly what they wanted to hear in exchange for immunity, anonymity and the opportunity to continue to race the biggest event in cycling. This isn't about USADA wanting to clean up cycling rather its just plain ol' selective prosecution that reeks of vendetta"

http://www.facebook.com/lancearmstrong

 

[mewmewmew13]

Since when are riders testimonies enough to prove that someone is guilty of doping? Wouldn't they need actual proof that he did? What if the samples they put forward are dubious?

I'm just saying... we've yet to see the full story. Armstrong might very well set up here by ex-teammates holding a grudge and the USADA...

What if.
All holding a grudge...bitter, vindictive...

Not this time. These are sterling witnesses...

 

[mewmewmew13]

Lance Armstrong on facebook:

"So let me get this straight....come in and tell USADA exactly what they wanted to hear in exchange for immunity, anonymity and the opportunity to continue to race the biggest event in cycling. This isn't about USADA wanting to clean up cycling rather its just plain ol' selective prosecution that reeks of vendetta"

http://www.facebook.com/lancearmstrong

Just typical isn't it. His expensive mouthpieces aren't good at reeling in his inane statements.

He is grasping and even suggesting that the witness may have perjured themselves just for a 'vendetta'.

I think Armstrong should have that word tattooed somewhere on his body.

 

[mewmewmew13]

(1) Only a subset of names was published. If somebody really had access to the USADA list, why wouldn't they name all the informants.

(2) The article uses the term "miraculously." That indicates partisanship--and a partisan source.

(3) The connection Brodeal points out. If Bruyneel writes a column for the paper, he is a plausible source.

(4) Vaughters denial of the six months' suspension 'miracle'. It is utterly inconceivable that Vaughters would be lying about something like this. There is too much at stake for him and he is not a moron. If Vaughters is telling the truth, then the part about the "six months" suspension is simply made up. If the six months' suspension is made up, then that casts real doubt on the authenticity of the names. It also indicates that the source is partisan.

This looks like a phony (and amateurish) attempt at suggesting a USADA leak. We've seen this before when Armstrong suggested a federal leak.

You just can't make this stuff up.

The part about the 6 month suspension.....may be wrong if it is a different length of suspension?
or not all the same suspension per each rider?

 

[Ninety5rpm]

http://www.cyclesportmag.com/features/lance-armstrong-the-end/

A few days after interviewing Lance Armstrong in Austin, Texas, for this magazine on the occasion of his comeback, in late 2008, I got The Call.

It’s not unusual for me to contact interviewees after we’ve spoken. In the course of transcribing an interview and writing a feature, it’s sometimes necessary to follow up and check a couple of facts, or explore a line of inquiry that we didn’t have time for.

This one was different.

Number withheld.

“Hey Ed, it’s Lance Armstrong,” said the voice at the other end. “How’s your kid?”

I fought the urge to go upstairs and check he was still asleep in his cot. Armstrong hadn’t called to make small talk, however. He wanted to discuss our interview, although to describe it as a discussion would be to overplay my part in the conversation.

“Your questions came from a very negative place,” he informed me.

I like to think I gave as good as I got. Armstrong chewed me out for obsessing about doping, while I lectured him about the sport needing to be built on ethical foundations and integrity, or it would have no meaning at all. This went on for a good half hour.

Then things turned a bit weird.

“OK then, if I cheated to win all those Tours, how did I do it?” Armstrong asked, challenge in his voice.

I was gobsmacked. The situation reminded me of OJ Simpson’s book If I did it. I was silent for a long time while my amazement found expression.

“Well, I don’t know,” was the best I could manage.

Great article. Thanks.

 

[biopass]

The part about the 6 month suspension.....may be wrong if it is a different length of suspension?
or not all the same suspension per each rider?

Dont worry about that. UCI will give them lifetime bans for breaking the omerta.

 

[spetsa]

Procedural Question

If the witnesses provided information "under oath" (Tygart's words) in the initial, voluntary, interviews, can they refuse to show up to the hearing and let their prior testimony stand for itself, or does either USADA or Armstrong's team now have the power to compell them to show up and either provide testimony, or for the sake of LA's team cross examining them?

I am curious, due to Hincapie's post tour retirement, if he could avoid having to put himself in a position that I would assume makes him uncomfortable. I would hope that if he tried to pull something like this, that it would come back to haunt him. If others are going to get sanctioned along with LA, George should not a get a free pass from scrutiny just because he is choosing to walk away.

 

[mewmewmew13]

This is what I think, and it appears to be working. He has hired the best, no question.

Ditto ff.
This makes a lot of sense.

 

[VeloMaster]

Then again...

Armstrong and the rest of the fraud conspirators have until 9th July to respond to USADA - so they would not have the name of the witnesses, that would only be provided if they contest the charges and go to arbitration.

IF Armstrong is guilty, then he would certainly know the names of the likely witnesses because they were involved with his activities, or deeply in the know, too. After all, if this story holds, then they were there, no?

No one knows whether the leaked list is accurate but the usual suspects in this sad, sorry saga of sporting fraud and human hubris are mentioned and -- importantly -- the still-active racers excused themselves from US Olympics consideration.

Putting 2+2 together is not rocket science, it seems to me.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

If the witnesses provided information "under oath" (Tygart's words) in the initial, voluntary, interviews, can they refuse to show up to the hearing and let their prior testimony stand for itself, or does either USADA or Armstrong's team now have the power to compell them to show up and either provide testimony, or for the sake of LA's team cross examining them?

I am curious, due to Hincapie's post tour retirement, if he could avoid having to put himself in a position that I would assume makes him uncomfortable. I would hope that if he tried to pull something like this, that it would come back to haunt him. If others are going to get sanctioned along with LA, George should not a get a free pass from scrutiny just because he is choosing to walk away.

As per the UCI rules I would expect USADA to have it all locked-down.

299. For the purposes of article 298, a Licence-Holder providing substantial assistance must: (1) fully disclose in a signed written statement all information he possesses in relation to anti-doping rule violations, and (2) fully cooperate with the investigation and adjudication of any case related to that information, including, for example, presenting testimony at a hearing if requested to do so by an Anti-Doping Organization or hearing panel. Further, the information provided must be credible and must comprise an important part of any case which is initiated or, if no case is initiated, must have
provided a sufficient basis on which a case could have been brought.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

I don't see how harassing his former teammates during TDF help Armstrong. It'd only make the former teammates even more ****ed at him, and encourage them to really go after him. If they were reluctant witnesses, they would now be very willing witnesses, assuming Armstrong leaked the info.

Although I do see the benefits of attacking the former teammates credibility by alleging that they made a deal with USADA for a slap on the wrist. But even so, leaking the info about the "slap on the wrist" during the TDF doesn't add anything to that argument, which would still be the same whether it is leaked during the TDF or it is used later during the AAA proceeding.

Something isn't adding up, from a legal strategical point of view.

Wonderboy has a GED and and ego that tells him he knows what's best for him no matter what he is told by others.

 

[Dr.Sahl]

Lance Armstrong on facebook:

"So let me get this straight....come in and tell USADA exactly what they wanted to hear in exchange for immunity, anonymity and the opportunity to continue to race the biggest event in cycling. This isn't about USADA wanting to clean up cycling rather its just plain ol' selective prosecution that reeks of vendetta"

http://www.facebook.com/lancearmstrong

He leaks it himself and now twit to use it to his advantage.... I hate armstrong more and more from each day that goes on... I really hope he gets busted big time, if anyone deserves to be hunted by ADA then its Armstrong.... sadly, there will be dumb people that eat this raw and support him....

 

[thehog]

Ditto ff.
This makes a lot of sense.

The sad and sorry tale is that there appears people and fans out there supporting this method. I for one cannot believe that people are willing to champion the cause for USADA not to their jobs. If they stop now where would the sport be left and where would those witnesses be?

At this point the UCI should step in and assist. But they won’t. A statement from them ensuring that due process would be followed and intimidation will not work would make a big difference.

 

[Armanius]

This is what I think, and it appears to be working. He has hired the best, no question.

Sorry, I just don't see how "destabilizing" the witnesses and sabotaging the TDF helps Armstrong in anyway. It just turns reluctant witnesses into willing witnesses. My personal experience when dealing with unfavorable witnesses is to turn them into favorable witnesses. If unwilling witnesses remain unwilling, they will tend to say favorable things -- think Andy Pettitte in the case against Roger Clemens.

 

[Armanius]

Wonderboy has a GED and and ego that tells him he knows what's best for him no matter what he is told by others.

Well, he does have an ego. That's undisputed for sure!!

 

[Dr. Maserati]

IF Armstrong is guilty, then he would certainly know the names of the likely witnesses because they were involved with his activities, or deeply in the know, too. After all, if this story holds, then they were there, no?

No one knows whether the leaked list is accurate but the usual suspects in this sad, sorry saga of sporting fraud and human hubris are mentioned and -- importantly -- the still-active racers excused themselves from US Olympics consideration.

Putting 2+2 together is not rocket science, it seems to me.

Agree - we had put this list together as soon as USADA mentioned "10 people" - and the excusing themselves from the Olympics confirmed it.

That is why I put little value to todays "news" - it is either a publication making a story or an attempt to put the witnesses under the media spotlight.
Perhaps in the general publics understanding it might look as though the noose has become a little tighter around Armstrong.

 

[TheMight]

Lance Armstrong on facebook:

"So let me get this straight....come in and tell USADA exactly what they wanted to hear in exchange for immunity, anonymity and the opportunity to continue to race the biggest event in cycling. This isn't about USADA wanting to clean up cycling rather its just plain ol' selective prosecution that reeks of vendetta"

http://www.facebook.com/lancearmstrong

Story has much better legs if he can specify why exactly they have a vendetta. You know, how Lance had a one night stand with Tygart's sister and never called her back or something. Or Lance black balled him at the country club.

 

[Berzin]

In terms of Armstrong and/or Bruyneel being the source of the leak to the Dutch newspaper, it makes sense to name only those riders currently still riding for the time being.

1) It will ruin their Tour, which is the point to such a well-timed leak.

2) They are going to spend time having to answer questions they don't want to answer and it will become a huge distraction for them.

3) It saves Armstrong the time/money it will take to harass these people himself. Now he has the press doing it for him.

I don't see how harassing his former teammates during TDF help Armstrong. It'd only make the former teammates even more ****ed at him, and encourage them to really go after him. If they were reluctant witnesses, they would now be very willing witnesses, assuming Armstrong leaked the info.

Because he's a bully, and that's how bullies roll. They don't know any other way.

 

[PedalPusher]

Sorry, I just don't see how "destabilizing" the witnesses and sabotaging the TDF helps Armstrong in anyway. It just turns reluctant witnesses into willing witnesses. My personal experience when dealing with unfavorable witnesses is to turn them into favorable witnesses. If unwilling witnesses remain unwilling, they will tend to say favorable things -- think Andy Pettitte in the case against Roger Clemens.

It's about power.Plain and simple. Lance has an incredible ego. He is just letting them know that he can make them irrelevant and ostracized in the peloton. He already knows they talked, but he is making them pay a price. He is showing them he still has power.

Sociopaths are about control and power, it is all a game.


And greetings all! Long time listener and first time caller! Been reading this from day one. Covered the topic well most of you except for the cult fan boys. Who seem to have a lack of understanding in the basics....of life..

 

[Armanius]

Sorry, I still disagree that Armstrong is leaking info simply because he is an egotistical maniacal power hungry vindictive individual. I see Armstrong as being much more calculated in his actions. If he is leaking the info, there's something to be clearly gained from the leak other than harassing the would be witnesses.

 

[MD FACG FACP]

500 tests

I know how to find the tests that USADA has done, but where can I find a total done by other entities. Because argueing with people that 500 tests are total BS is starting to annoy me.