USADA - Armstrong

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May 7, 2009
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Race Radio said:

"....there’s no conceivable way that I can see that a lab could’ve spiked them in a way that the data has presented itself..."

This quote and the more detailed description of the EPO decay in the blood samples is what opened my eyes initially. Everything else makes so much more sense, now.


Also this quote, priceless !!

"...So I’ll say ahead of time that any defense lawyers reading this article should not work themselves into a lather if my explanations are somewhat looser than I would use in front of an arbitration panel."
 
Jul 30, 2011
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thehog said:
Eurosport today actually ended up talking a lot about Sastre.

He was voted the hardest worker with the least natural talent. A lot of comments about how hard he trained and how well he was respected in the peloton.

He beat Cadel Evans so nothing to say on the same form he couldn't win in 2012.

Speaking of him in what context? As a model to emulate? Maybe he could, you know as well as anyone that Evans was a bit too overzealous and highstrung back then. On topic, liking Sastre as a human being and/or rider was not the aspect of hypocrisy that I was getting at.
 
May 26, 2010
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Deagol said:
"....there’s no conceivable way that I can see that a lab could’ve spiked them in a way that the data has presented itself..."

This quote and the more detailed description of the EPO decay in the blood samples is what opened my eyes initially. Everything else makes so much more sense, now.


Also this quote, priceless !!

"...So I’ll say ahead of time that any defense lawyers reading this article should not work themselves into a lather if my explanations are somewhat looser than I would use in front of an arbitration panel."

They are coming at Armstrong from a lot of different directions.

How much of Lance's old blood do they have? Can they reexamine it?
 
Jul 8, 2010
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Fearless Greg Lemond said:
Not to l'Equipe? How could that be? So we have the Gazzetto [cyclingpaper], El Pais [cyclingpaper], the Telegraaf [gossip paper, Bruyneel has a column] but not l'Equipe, the newspaper who has been at war with LA since 2001 I think.

Bad spindoctors at camp LA I must say.

Damien Ressiot is only allowed to release full proof information on doping (this was imposed on him the year Clerc was kicked out of ASO, and Groupe Amaury - owners of ASO and L Equipe - decided to prepare for LA's comeback).

I copied Ressiot's article from today's paper. I guess I m allowed to do it now as everybody's bought his paper ;o) (you won't find this in the online version)

L'AGENCE AMÉRICAINE antidopage (USADA) et son responsable Travis Tygart ont très vite réagi aux révélations du journal néerlandais De Telegraaf, qui a annoncé hier que les coureurs américains George Hincapie (BMC), Levi Leipheimer (Omega Pharma-Quick Step), Christian Vande Velde, David Zabriskie (Garmin-Sharp), ainsi que Jonathan Vaughters, aujourd'hui manager de Garmin-Sharp, avaient avoué s'être dopés en compagnie de Lance Armstrong. Ces aveux, consignés selon De Telegraph dans le dossier à charge pour dopage et ayant valeur d'accusations contre le septuple vainqueur du Tour, vaudrait aux quatre coureurs, tous présents sur le Tour, une suspension de six mois dès septembre prochain.
Rappelant qu'« aucune décision individuelle n'avait encore été entérinée », l'USADA a ajouté que « toute tentative pour deviner les noms des témoins potentiels peut seulement conduire à des informations erronées et à toutes formes de menaces et intimidations ». Pour autant, l'Agence américaine n'a nullement démenti sur le fond l'information.
Premier constat : ces six mois correspondent parfaitement à la peine inscrite dans le Code mondial antidopage, dont l'article 10.5.3 prévoit, en cas de collaboration, une réduction des trois quarts de la suspension de deux ans pour une infraction aux règles antidopage. De vingt-quatre à six mois, le compte est bon.
À qui profite la fuite ?
Deuxième remarque : dans le courrier détaillant les charges retenues contre Armstrong, son ancien directeur sportif Johan Bruyneel et son préparateur physique Michele Ferrari, entre autres, l'USADA stipule détenir plusieurs témoignages, sans les nommer, de coureurs ou anciens membres de l'encadrement des différentes équipes de leur leader. Avec ces quatre-là - si la liste se confirme -, auxquels on peut rajouter sans risques de se tromper Floyd Landis, Tyler Hamilton et Kevin Livingston, ça commence à faire beaucoup... On comprend mieux pourquoi le comité d'experts de l'USADA, chargé de valider la consistance des accusations envers Armstrong, n'a pas hésité une seconde la semaine dernière à lancer pleins gaz la procédure disciplinaire à son encontre, en dépit des dénégations du Texan, actuellement suspendu par la Fédération internationale de triathlon.
Enfin, troisième et dernière remarque : à qui peut profiter la fuite, sinon au clan Armstrong luimême, espérant ainsi mettre à mal la procédure censée rester confidentielle et faire pression sur ceux qui devront témoigner de nouveau devant le panel ? Notons que Bruyneel, qui s'est lui-même privé de présence sur le Tour, rédige une chronique sur la course dans... De Telegraph. Les coureurs concernés ont probablement exigé de l'USADA que leurs suspensions restent strictement secrètes. Leurs accords avec l'Agence américaine pourraient également stipuler qu'ils prendront leur retraite à l'issue de la saison et qu'ils ne disputeront pas les Jeux Olympiques de Londres. Ce dernier point est déjà acquis pour les quatre.
Lorsque l'on sait qu'Armstrong, déjà épaulé par une division d'avocats, s'est assuré les services d'enquêteurs privés pour mettre à mal le dossier qui le menace, on peut s'attendre à tout concernant ses méthodes. Cette orchestration lui ressemble fort. C'est lui-même qui a également annoncé dans les médias américains, très récemment, qu'un des membres du comité d'experts de l'USADA aurait eu, par le passé, maille à partir avec la justice américaine pour un possible attentat à la pudeur...Le grand show de la justice américaine, en somme, fût-elle sportive.
Armstrong a quelques mois devant lui - il comparaîtra d'ici au 22 novembre devant le panel indépendant dit AAA - pour pourrir davantage encore le débat et éclabousser l'USADA.
 
aphronesis said:
Are you speaking for the clinic or the US populace? Which workers, do you suppose, at US sanctioned agencies, went to their jobs because they believed strongly in the purpose and mission statement suggested by those jobs, and which do you suppose ended up there, aw shucks, out of a number of downward pressures, borne of various financial 'crises'?

They were always opportunists, and it's fair to say that they were low characters, always trimming to the prevailing political wind and ready to resort to any available means to gain whatever advantage they could from any regime. They always supported the powers that be, and as true Americans they were past masters in the art of opportunism.

So what's your point?
 
Jul 27, 2010
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Adamastor, you have provided some great links today, thanks:

Adamastor said:
Les coureurs concernés ont probablement exigé de l'USADA que leurs suspensions restent strictement secrètes. Leurs accords avec l'Agence américaine pourraient également stipuler qu'ils prendront leur retraite à l'issue de la saison et qu'ils ne disputeront pas les Jeux Olympiques de Londres. Ce dernier point est déjà acquis pour les quatre.

The concerned riders probably demanded of USADA that their suspensions remain strictly secret. Their agreements with the US Agency could also stipulate that they will retire at the end of the season and that they do not compete for the Olympic Games in London. This last point has already been established for the four of them.

And from el Pais:

Fue una negociación, relatan las fuentes, muy a la americana: o acusáis a Armstrong u os sancionamos a vosotros, porque Landis y Hamilton —dos excolegas ya retirados y habladores— nos han dicho lo que hacíais vosotros también. La confesión está sancionada con dos años de suspensión, pero, según las mismas fuentes, por su buena conducta a los cuatro, y también a Jonathan Vaughters, el manager del Garmin y también miembro de la lista de colaboradores, se les redujo la sanción a la cuarta parte, seis meses, con derecho a elegir las fechas de cumplimiento —después del Tour, pues los cuatro participan este año, y sin Juegos— y se les prometió mantenerlo en secreto hasta al menos septiembre, cuando se viera obligada la USADA a enviar a Armstrong todas las pruebas de cargo.

It was a negotiation, according to sources, for the American: you implicate Armstrong or you are sanctioned, because Landis and Hamilton - two retired teammates who are talking - have told us what you did. Confession is sanctioned with two years suspension, but according to the same sources, for their good behavior, the sanction of these four, and also that of Jonathan Vaughters, the manager of the Garmin and also a member of the list of collaborators, was reduced to a quarter of this, six months, with the right to choose the date of compliance- after the Tour, because the four are participating in it this year, and not the Olympic Games - and a promise to keep it secret until at least September, when USADA was required to send all the prosecution evidence to Armstrong.

Pretty much confirms everything I said, including how they got these guys to confess in the first place. Yes, Chewy, it hasn't been confirmed by USADA yet (as I emphasized in my earlier post--how you missed that when you quoted that post I have no idea, just as I have no idea how Mas missed the sentence in the NYT article he quoted that I got my info from), but interesting that Ressiot believes this, too.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Race Radio said:
+1

Just because the US Government dropped their investigation you don't think USADA can gain by punishing an underground doping mafia that the top cyclists in the field are prepared to testify was led by the person who was able to win the Tour de France more times than anyone in history? If they don't act on this evidence, cycling will remain a joke as a pro sport as everyone will believe it has to do with athleticism about as much as World Wide Wrestling does.

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Merckx index said:
Pretty much confirms everything I said, including how they got these guys to confess in the first place.

It doesn't.

For a couple of the riders there was some back and forth but for most of the over a dozen witnesses they gave their testimony willing with the full support of their current employers. Multiple witnesses had given evidence prior to the Landis' emails and not all are riders.

Don't fall for Armstrong's spin.
 
Jul 14, 2009
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Hugh Januss said:
And maybe they should, immediately after Lance confesses. ******!
you missed the entire justice process. Armstrong still claims he is innocent, they have all confessed to crime at one degree or another. Directly taking drugs or watching drugs used to influence races. The punishment should be swift. Armstrong is still entitled to due process, the confessed jump to the front of the line.Levi first please
 

thehog

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Jul 27, 2009
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Merckx index said:
Adamastor, you have provided some great links today, thanks:





And from el Pais:





Pretty much confirms everything I said, including how they got these guys to confess in the first place. Yes, Chewy, it hasn't been confirmed by USADA yet (as I emphasized in my earlier post--how you missed that when you quoted that post I have no idea, just as I have no idea how Mas missed the sentence in the NYT article he quoted that I got my info from), but interesting that Ressiot believes this, too.

I'm sorry but you have no idea. Period. You're actually one of the worst on this board for detail.
 
Aug 10, 2010
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Race Radio said:
It doesn't.

For a couple of the riders there was some back and forth but for most of the over a dozen witnesses they gave their testimony willing with the full support of their current employers. Multiple witnesses had given evidence prior to the Landis' emails and not all are riders.

Don't fall for Armstrong's spin.

USADA would never officially leak. If it were an unofficial leak from USADA, why would they only leak a subset of riders who are currently riding on the Tour? That doesn't make sense to me.

It's not the riders. First, because it is way against their interest. Second, because this story is a plant, the only way that would work is if all the riders got together and jointly planted the story.

Who's left, other than the Co-Cons?

And what about Vaughters' denial that a deal is in place? He puts a huge amount of effort into being perceived as honest. If he's lying, then it is a stupid lie that will eventually be uncovered. I believe him.

On the other hand, the NYT is a reliable paper.

Guess we'll find out sooner or later.
 
Aug 10, 2010
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thehog said:
I'm sorry but you have no idea. Period. You're actually one of the worst on this board for detail.

You should appreciate his honest effort. He doesn't make stuff up, he stimulates thought, he's always civil, and he never trolls.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Merckx index said:
And from el Pais:
It was a negotiation, according to sources, for the American: you implicate Armstrong or you are sanctioned, because Landis and Hamilton - two retired teammates who are talking - have told us what you did. Confession is sanctioned with two years suspension, but according to the same sources, for their good behavior, the sanction of these four, and also that of Jonathan Vaughters, the manager of the Garmin and also a member of the list of collaborators, was reduced to a quarter of this, six months, with the right to choose the date of compliance- after the Tour, because the four are participating in it this year, and not the Olympic Games - and a promise to keep it secret until at least September, when USADA was required to send all the prosecution evidence to Armstrong.


Pretty much confirms everything I said, including how they got these guys to confess in the first place. Yes, Chewy, it hasn't been confirmed by USADA yet (as I emphasized in my earlier post--how you missed that when you quoted that post I have no idea, just as I have no idea how Mas missed the sentence in the NYT article he quoted that I got my info from), but interesting that Ressiot believes this, too.
Yeah, I think the theory that they were given the choice to cooperate and get a relatively light negotiated sanction, or be charged along with Armstrong, makes sense.
It's consistent with what the USADA letter said: Armstrong is being charged because he is the only one that was approached who chose not to cooperate. It explains the Hincapie retirement announcements, the decisions to not take part in the Olympics, etc.

What's the alternative explanation for all of that?
 
Mar 17, 2009
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MarkvW said:
You should appreciate his honest effort. He doesn't make stuff up, he stimulates thought, he's always civil, and he never trolls.

all true about MI, and you wonder why hog doesn't like him? ;)
 
Aug 10, 2010
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Ninety5rpm said:
Yeah, I think the theory that they were given the choice to cooperate and get a relatively light negotiated sanction, or be charged along with Armstrong, makes sense.
It's consistent with what the USADA letter said: Armstrong is being charged because he is the only one that was approached who chose not to cooperate. It explains the Hincapie retirement announcements, the decisions to not take part in the Olympics, etc.

What's the alternative explanation for all of that?

But what about Vaughters' statement that there is no deal?
 
Aug 6, 2009
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Ninety5rpm said:
Don't miss the commentary at the end of Howard Kurtz' terrible article.

Yes, this comment is pure comedy gold-

Nicksr-"I don't want the truth if it costs so much and has so little value."

The American Moral Compass has hit a new all-time low with this little nugget of profound wisdom.
 
Jun 15, 2009
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Have googled some polls. Around 70% (some at 80+, some in the low 60s) believe that Armstrong doped. That´s a good sign. Now, when will his sponsors show him the cold shoulder? Those days will be fantastic...
 
May 26, 2009
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Berzin said:
Yes, this comment is pure comedy gold-

Nicksr-"I don't want the truth if it costs so much and has so little value.".


Jeez. Nice.

Could be the mantra underlying much of the dysfunctional aspects of the world - not just in the USA, it seems to be a common human condition.
 
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