USADA - Armstrong

[henryg]

It's mind boggling that it's now 2012, and we are still dealing with this. Assuming Armstrong is dirty, why couldn't anyone charge him and bust him and the USPS entourage earlier?

It probably took the Grand Jury to break the Omertà. Once all Lances team mates spilled their guts they could not change their story for the USADA. That was the evidence that finally made it a slam dunk for USADA. You don't go after Armstrong unless you are 100% sure you can win.

 

[Benotti69]

Comment section is telling:

Rob roberts on Jul 10, 1:37 PM said:
I am happy for all the misfortune coming his way. What Armstrong did was hoist a huge lie pn all of us, and become a "hero" based on drugs. I wish my life were that easy, and I could just lie my way to making millions and becoming a role model. Sorry Lance, you are a doper AND a liar and I hate you mostly for being a bald faced liar.

Rob roberts on Jul 10, 1:41 PM said:
@Rob roberts:
And one more thing, Lance: my older brother absolutely worshipped you. He had a brain tumor and you were his absolute role model. i am glad he died of his brain tumor before discovering his hero was a fake, a liar and a scam


http://www.businessinsider.com/lanc...-to-lose-his-doping-case-2012-7#ixzz20FK1MwRZ

the dyed in the wool blind faith fans will never understand that Armstrong does not give a toss for anyone like @Rob roberts or his brother. He is in it for himself.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

Regardless of what happens, the evidence and sworn testimony needs to be released so that we can all decide. For some reason, I still feel that Lance is going to pull a rabbit out of his hat on USADA....

Indeed he might, and Brian Alexander in Outside magazine provides a hint of how this might go:

This doesn’t mean I’m an Armstrong fan or that I think he’s innocent. I’ve covered sports doping for years, and I was convinced long ago that he cheated, even before former Postal riders Floyd Landis and Tyler Hamilton gave extensive and credible statements about how the team’s doping program worked.

But it’s not the what of this case that bothers me, it’s the how. Ends do not always justify means, and sometimes, in order to preserve higher values, you have to let guilty parties walk. In this instance, I’m less concerned about proving that Lance’s yellow jerseys are smudged than with the fact that USADA keeps mutating into what looks like a law-enforcement body, which it isn’t.

http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/celebrities/Lance-Armstrong-Victim.html

The Lance is the victim of the out-of-control/Unconstitutional USADA strategy was put into play weeks ago. The lawsuit filing was part of that. So is this Outside puff piece.

Will it work? I, for one, am not betting against it.

 

[college]

Someday you're going to have to make up your mind: is it a Witch Hunt or a Kangaroo Court? Either way the perps are bouncing, witches have been found and a stake is headed at the heart of the unkillable beast. It is over and is all TRUE, fella.

This thread is not about me nor is it about anything I need to make up my mind about. Please try to not make it personal.

Regarding Lance and his next move against usada, I expect the lawsuit will be refilled. Why anyone would expect Lance to just allow usada to make decisions without his representation would be wishful thinking in rather small echo chamber here at the clinic.

"What is stronger, fear or hope?"

 

[thehog]

"What is stronger, fear or hope?"

"What is stronger, fear, hope or stupidity?"

 

[jilbiker]

Bet ya a case of Shiner he refiles.

I agree. Call it conspiracy theory but when I heard about the case yesterday, I said " lance has a Judge in his pocket". Wait before you scream foul, Lance had UCI in his pocket right? I think this dismissal is a scam. The judge could not rule in lance's favor without it looking as if he was on the bookie. So have the lawyer file a sham case, dismiss it then they refile a proper case and he rules for lance's request. Think about it, Lance hired top lawyers, charging thousands an hour, think they would file this kind of two piece filing???

 

[Ninety5rpm]

Indeed he might, and Brian Alexander in Outside magazine provides a hint of how this might go:



http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/celebrities/Lance-Armstrong-Victim.html

Okay, I read the whole article. Highly recommended. Seems well-informed. Here's the conclusion:

That’s why, if experts are correct—and Armstrong’s lawyers are setting up an attack on USADA’s methods and authority—we could be in for a big and very important battle. Even if you are a Lance hater, and it pains you to think that he doped and might get away with it, you might want to pull for him this time.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

I agree. Call it conspiracy theory but when I heard about the case yesterday, I said " lance has a Judge in his pocket". Wait before you scream foul, Lance had UCI in his pocket right? I think this dismissal is a scam. The judge could not rule in lance's favor without it looking as if he was on the bookie. So have the lawyer file a sham case, dismiss it then they refile a proper case and he rules for lance's request. Think about it, Lance hired top lawyers, charging thousands an hour, think they would file this kind of two piece filing???

Conspiracy theory alert.

Wait. Do you believe 9/11 was an inside job?

 

[webvan]

It probably took the Grand Jury to break the Omertà. Once all Lances team mates spilled their guts they could not change their story for the USADA. That was the evidence that finally made it a slam dunk for USADA. You don't go after Armstrong unless you are 100% sure you can win.

Yes, that's what clinched it, before that no one would have gone on record and get in Dopestrong's little black book.

 

[ManInFull]

Indeed he might, and Brian Alexander in Outside magazine provides a hint of how this might go:



http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/celebrities/Lance-Armstrong-Victim.html

The Lance is the victim of the out-of-control/Unconstitutional USADA strategy was put into play weeks ago. The lawsuit filing was part of that. So is this Outside puff piece.

Will it work? I, for one, am not betting against it.

Thanks for providing the link. We should all read it. I think that the points are valid and his legal team is taking the right approach to fight this. Not only is "his fight" beneficial to himself, it's going to be beneficial to all athletes if Lance's legal team is successful.

I am sure that there is a reason for why Lance's team filed their complaint in Austin and it is more then the proximity to Lance's home. Based on the points brought up in that article, there is bound to be some conservative judge who will agree with Lance's complaint.

That's why I am hoping that, at some point, somebody will simply post the testimonies online so that we can read them at our leisure. Otherwise, I have this sinking feeling that our enthusiasm for the general public to know the truth will be short-lived.

 

[hfer07]

well- If Ferrari, Del Moral & Marti have been just World wide banned- that means USADA has reached a verdict on LA & Co.-then why the hold up? because of the appealing process or the dead line?

 

[MD FACG FACP]

Usada is such a bad org that they would do these type of sanctions and suspensions during the tour. The unlawful amount of time they give the accused to reply paints the accused into a corner. “What ever your 100% looks like, give it.”

I think it's worse to dope during the tour.

 

[jilbiker]

Conspiracy theory alert.

Wait. Do you believe 9/11 was an inside job?

I think you underestimate Lance....Or maybe I overestmate him. But when I remember the players he bullied into silence, the reporters he sued into silence and the UCI he had in the pocket, Fed dropping the case thanks to some political pressure, I say this fellow can have a judge for breakfast

 

[TubularBills]

"I am not going to engage in the United States Anti-Doping Agency’s secret kangaroo court. "

USADA bans Marion Jones for 2 years

Track star Marion Jones sentenced to 6 months

Thanks for the links - it really adds clarity to what is at stake:

DISQUALIFIED (from link 2 regarding Marion)

She has been disqualified from all competitive events on and subsequent to Sept. 1, 2000, and must forfeit all medals, results, points and prizes from that date, the USADA said.

In addition to Jones's five Olympic medals (LA Bronze ITT Sydney 2000), Scherr said he believed the sprinter's 2001 world championships medals (LA 1993) - gold in the 200 metres and silver in the 100 metres - should also be forfeited.

The USOC will request the return of more than 100,000 dollars in funds Jones had received, Scherr added.

The IAAF is also expected to seek millions of dollars in prize and appearance money from Jones, who according to court documents is broke. (Not the case with LA, but soon to be.)

+ maybe SCA and Landis' civil Whistle Blower case (might not be DOA if the Fed Case leverages the findings in USADA case i.e. add all USPS sponsorship monies, unless the court finds USPS got their money's worth?).

The seven Tour titles could be just the tip of the iceberg...

If the same precedents are applied to LA... a crushing and devastating outcome both financially and emotionally... really puts it in perspective.

He should immediately refocus his efforts on damage control rather than his tepid misguided shenanigans...

Twitter wars and PR spin don't save fortunes, he's on a down-bound train.

 

[peterst6906]

...think they would file this kind of two piece filing???

The evidence would suggest yes.

More likely than conspiracy, is that the judge is correct and the lawyers filed exactly what Lance asked them to, to attempt to maximise media exposure and for personal aggrandizement.

 

[Armanius]

Federal judges are appointed for life. Of course that doesn't mean they are not susceptible to corruption (and ideology), but at least, it's not as easy as donating $$$$ for election campaign.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

well- If Ferrari, Del Moral & Marti have been just World wide banned- that means USADA has reached a verdict on LA & Co.-then why the hold up? because of the appealing process or the dead line?

All 6 had the same three options regarding responding to the USADA charges by July 9:

1) Accept the charges explicitly, or do nothing and accept the charges by default.
2) Ask for a hearing.
3) Ask for a 5-day extension and then go with option 1 or 2.

We know Lance went the #3 route.

We learned today that Ferrari, Del Moral & Marti went with #1.

And we also learned that Bruyneel and the other guy went for #2 or #3.

 

[Merckx index]

Indeed he might, and Brian Alexander in Outside magazine provides a hint of how this might go:



http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/celebrities/Lance-Armstrong-Victim.html

The Lance is the victim of the out-of-control/Unconstitutional USADA strategy was put into play weeks ago. The lawsuit filing was part of that. So is this Outside puff piece.

Will it work? I, for one, am not betting against it.

This is a very interesting article. I have worried a little about WADA/USADA getting too much power, but I have been inclined to feel that it’s so difficult to catch dopers that they need all the power that they can get. But this kind of stuff disturbs me:

[USADA] argues that it can use the courts to compel people who have nothing to do with sports to testify in its private proceedings under threat of perjury, to surrender evidence or other documents, and to name names.

Tygart has told Outside that he can force anybody to give testimony or produce evidence to an arbitration panel, even if that person has no relationship to sports. According to Weston and other experts, Tygart could try to convince the arbitrators that your evidence is crucial to a case. The panel can then ask a court to issue a subpoena. You would be sworn in and, if you lie, you could be charged with felony perjury.

Even if you take the position, as most in the Clinic do, that WADA has to have major powers in order to catch dopers, the fact that these powers can be turned on people who never applied for a racing license, who never agreed to be bound by the WADA rules, has to be worrisome.

And even the athletes themselves may get more than they signed up for:

The reverse form of intertwinement—a private body serving as a “stalking horse” for federal law enforcement—is also problematic. Because athletes are assumed to have waived important rights, anti-doping agencies can conduct body searches like urine or blood testing, and then feed the information to the FBI or police. The anti-doping code encourages this.

I keep coming back to the conclusion that pro sports are simply too powerful and too awash in money. It’s that power and money that makes cheating such a big deal. If this were just masters racing, one could still feel disgust at cheaters without feeling that what they were doing was so destructive of the sport that we had to make special, extra-legal rules to catch them.

Floyd lost his case, but he did manage to cast light on lab mistakes, and even got the arbs to throw out some of the charges against him. From my point of view, maybe a similar outcome would be best. LA loses, but in the process draws attention to the power USADA has. The question is, can this power be restrained without compromising its effectiveness.

 

[college]

Okay, I read the whole article. Highly recommended. Seems well-informed. Here's the conclusion:

There are reasons for everything that Lance’s legal team have done so far. They have a plan otherwise they would not be so good at their law practice. Just wait and see how this will unfold. It is only the first quarter of the game, not even have half time yet.
I read here in the small echo chamber that people expect Lance to fold. That is far from what is about to happen. Usada made default punishment against the doctors but why would those doctors waist any money trying to defend themselves in a procedure that is a witch hunt and kangaroo court?
“Knowledge is power, community is strength and positive attitude is everything”

 

[Epicycle]

Okay, I read the whole article. Highly recommended. Seems well-informed. Here's the conclusion:

A lot of smoke and mirrors in that article. Why even bring up "beyond a reasonable doubt"? Even if being banned from sport and having results disqualified were decided in court, it would be a civil matter. And the author does his best to confuse the review board and arbitration panel. And what's the point of positing the doomsday scenario of USADA exerting it's control over everything from high school sports to the NFL when that's never, ever going to happen. As for USADA and the Justice Department...that's all just speculation at this point.

 

[snackattack]

I agree. Call it conspiracy theory but when I heard about the case yesterday, I said " lance has a Judge in his pocket". Wait before you scream foul, Lance had UCI in his pocket right? I think this dismissal is a scam. The judge could not rule in lance's favor without it looking as if he was on the bookie. So have the lawyer file a sham case, dismiss it then they refile a proper case and he rules for lance's request. Think about it, Lance hired top lawyers, charging thousands an hour, think they would file this kind of two piece filing???

Another bright eye in this land of the forum blind.

The refurb was already there at the time make-believe was filed.

Nice soufflé from Herman to the jud by the way ´when Sparks .....´ very touchy.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

Even if you take the position, as most in the Clinic do, that WADA has to have major powers in order to catch dopers, the fact that these powers can be turned on people who never applied for a racing license, who never agreed to be bound by the WADA rules, has to be worrisome.

Here's a general legal question for the lawyers and law students on this list.

In a civil case between Party A and Party B, and either party compel Party C to testify as a witness?

I mean, if my neighbor cuts his tree down and it falls on my house, and I know my neighbor across the street witnessed the whole thing, if that neighbor is unwilling to testify, in my suit against my neighbor do I have any legal recourse to require the witness neighbor to testify? Can I get the court to subpoena him?

My point:
If an ordinary citizen can't get a witness subpoenaed in a civil case, then I agree the USADA should not have such powers either.
But if he can, then I don't see why the USADA should not also have such powers.

 

[ManInFull]

Floyd lost his case, but he did manage to cast light on lab mistakes, and even got the arbs to throw out some of the charges against him. From my point of view, maybe a similar outcome would be best. LA loses, but in the process draws attention to the power USADA has. The question is, can this power be restrained without compromising its effectiveness.

So Lance is going to fight the process by trying to show that USADA is acting as a government entity while not providing athletes with rights mandated under the US Constitution. IMHO, there's nothing outrageous in that claim...

My question is what happens to the evidence and testimony?

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Actually I believe cycling is far more of a joke than any of the others listed above considering they cannot even get legitimate champions for the sport's biggest crown. I think you answered your own question about golf. It is not really a size or endurance sport anyway.

You are an complete idiot. For example, NFL "journalists" re-vote a caught doper as "Rookie of the year".
Voter for the "Hall of fame" give a $hit of McGwire´s doping admission, and so on, and so on...

The top 5 major leagues are wayyy more of a joke than cycling. At least cycling is trying to clean up.

But you moron won´t understand it anyway. Dream on and insult USADA...

 

[Armanius]

In a civil case, a private party can ask for subpoenas to be issued to compel a non-party to testify (before a court or in a deposition). You still need to serve the party with the subpoena. If the non-party witness ducks the service, then you are out of luck.