USADA - Armstrong

[MarkvW]

Given how much lobbying is done by demand media, and livestrong I'd say the chances are slim to none they let USADA just do their job.

If trouble is going to come USADA's way, it's got to come through USA Cycling. No blubbery congressman is going to get USADA to breach its contract with USA Cycling.

If anything bad is going to happen, it's going to come from USA Cycling--Lance's buddies. They're predisposed to help him, but it is difficult to see how they can interfere before USADA completes its task.

Please explain how Demand Media and Livestrong can deter USADA from doing their job.

 

[frenchfry]

If trouble is going to come USADA's way, it's got to come through USA Cycling. No blubbery congressman is going to get USADA to breach its contract with USA Cycling.

If anything bad is going to happen, it's going to come from USA Cycling--Lance's buddies. They're predisposed to help him, but it is difficult to see how they can interfere before USADA completes its task.

Please explain how Demand Media and Livestrong can deter USADA from doing their job.

USADA has most certainly anticipated this risk, and I would imagine they will skillfully deflect it as they have been doing so far with attempts to undermine the process.

 

[DirtyWorks]

If trouble is going to come USADA's way, it's got to come through USA Cycling. No blubbery congressman is going to get USADA to breach its contract with USA Cycling.

If anything bad is going to happen, it's going to come from USA Cycling--Lance's buddies. They're predisposed to help him, but it is difficult to see how they can interfere before USADA completes its task.

Please explain how Demand Media and Livestrong can deter USADA from doing their job.

The smarter congress critters, especially the ones with appropriations influence, won't grandstand for Wonderboy. When it comes time to fashion a budget and the USADA/anti-doping line item is considered, if Wonderboy's lobbyists are doing their job the USADA's budget gets smaller.

Go back to Fabiani's work. The Federal investigation evaporated and Fabiani's activities remain undocumented. That's why you pay lobbyists.

The how it gets done by a lobbyist is a discussion about USADA with a bunch of dishonest representations about what USADA are doing, and then closing with an "oh yeah, livestrong wants you to appropriate more money for awareness/bill xxyyzz." Or, if it's Demand Media, drop a line at the end about how great SOPA is or something. And then the lobbyist makes a little money rain on the congress critter's election campaign. Totally legal. Maybe you aren't from the U.S., but this is how the game is played. If you are from the U.S. you need to know how your political system works.

Hog, it's not about 'shutting down USADA.' It's about gutting their future budget, then attempting to overwhelm them with litigation so Wonderboy's team can fabricate a legal exception against weak legal representation. This is a classic business tactic in the U.S. anyway. And yes, I think that's Wonderboy playing way out of his league. Now, I think USOC would have something to say about all of this because his doping is now tainting the favorable perception of the Olympics. Once again, Wonderboy probably has inspired quite a bit of chaos/infighting, this time with USADA and USOC, perhaps all the way into the IOC.

 

[D-Queued]

... <Snipped some really good points>

Once again, Wonderboy probably has inspired quite a bit of chaos/infighting, this time with USADA and USOC, perhaps all the way into the IOC.

Isn't it fascinating that WADA and Lance are effectively the Yin and Yang that were borne out of the Festina scandal?

Don't underestimate the power of the dark side...

Dave.

 

[MarkvW]

The smarter congress critters, especially the ones with appropriations influence, won't grandstand for Wonderboy. When it comes time to fashion a budget and the USADA/anti-doping line item is considered, if Wonderboy's lobbyists are doing their job the USADA's budget gets smaller.

Go back to Fabiani's work. The Federal investigation evaporated and Fabiani's activities remain undocumented. That's why you pay lobbyists.

The how it gets done by a lobbyist is a discussion about USADA with a bunch of dishonest representations about what USADA are doing, and then closing with an "oh yeah, livestrong wants you to appropriate more money for awareness/bill xxyyzz." Or, if it's Demand Media, drop a line at the end about how great SOPA is or something. And then the lobbyist makes a little money rain on the congress critter's election campaign. Totally legal. Maybe you aren't from the U.S., but this is how the game is played. If you are from the U.S. you need to know how your political system works.

Hog, it's not about 'shutting down USADA.' It's about gutting their future budget, then attempting to overwhelm them with litigation so Wonderboy's team can fabricate a legal exception against weak legal representation. This is a classic business tactic in the U.S. anyway. And yes, I think that's Wonderboy playing way out of his league. Now, I think USOC would have something to say about all of this because his doping is now tainting the favorable perception of the Olympics. Once again, Wonderboy probably has inspired quite a bit of chaos/infighting, this time with USADA and USOC, perhaps all the way into the IOC.

You describe circumstances that might favor a protracted war between USADA and Lance. While such a protracted war might take place, I don't think it will take place until after USADA has done its job and rendered its decision.

USADA's first two arguments are proven winners. Ted Stevens gives the USOC exclusive jurisdiction over antidoping. That means that federal courts must stay out. Lance is not going to win that one legally, and any attempt to change the law will fail because Lance's all-powerful lobbyists will never trump USOC's more powerful lobbyists. Lance should also lose because the federal courts are not going to override an arbitration agreement--especially not before the arbitration has even happened. Bottom line: Litigation is not likely to disrupt USADA before USADA renders its decision.

Lobbying efforts are worthless unless Lance contests. If Lance does not contest, then the decision is entered and USADA's job is done.

If Lance does contest, the arbitration decision will likely be rendered prompty and without a lot of expensive litigation. That is the whole point of arbitration. Lobbying is not going to produce results fast enough to derail any antidoping process. Further, as another poster has noted, Lance may be a rich guy, but he is not rich and powerful like NBC and the USOC. Lance may retain a little juice, but he is now damaged goods, and he has to proceed with at least some circumspection if he wants any results. Such results take time, and that's one thing Lance doesn't have.

I don't see any reasonable probability of anything derailing USADA. They were set up as an independent entity for circumstances just like this.

The interesting bit comes afterward. What are USAC and the UCI going to do after USADA is done? For me, that's where the corrupt fun begins.

 

[thehog]

The smarter congress critters, especially the ones with appropriations influence, won't grandstand for Wonderboy. When it comes time to fashion a budget and the USADA/anti-doping line item is considered, if Wonderboy's lobbyists are doing their job the USADA's budget gets smaller.

Go back to Fabiani's work. The Federal investigation evaporated and Fabiani's activities remain undocumented. That's why you pay lobbyists.

The how it gets done by a lobbyist is a discussion about USADA with a bunch of dishonest representations about what USADA are doing, and then closing with an "oh yeah, livestrong wants you to appropriate more money for awareness/bill xxyyzz." Or, if it's Demand Media, drop a line at the end about how great SOPA is or something. And then the lobbyist makes a little money rain on the congress critter's election campaign. Totally legal. Maybe you aren't from the U.S., but this is how the game is played. If you are from the U.S. you need to know how your political system works.

Hog, it's not about 'shutting down USADA.' It's about gutting their future budget, then attempting to overwhelm them with litigation so Wonderboy's team can fabricate a legal exception against weak legal representation. This is a classic business tactic in the U.S. anyway. And yes, I think that's Wonderboy playing way out of his league. Now, I think USOC would have something to say about all of this because his doping is now tainting the favorable perception of the Olympics. Once again, Wonderboy probably has inspired quite a bit of chaos/infighting, this time with USADA and USOC, perhaps all the way into the IOC.

I can see the point you’re driving at but I’m skeptical. The reason I suggest this is Armstrong actually doesn’t have any money. He’s not as wealthy as people would lead you to believe. In addition USADA is 40 people strong. They don’t need to commission external legal counsel. Its housed within. If Armstrong wants to spend 15m to gut a 15m organization he can go right ahead. But it’s probably Armstrong last 15m. I doubt he has that much in cash. Armstrong will have to go to CAS and once they also find him guilty he’ll try the federal route again. That’s going to cost money. I see it the other way around. USADA will be burning up cash from Armstrong. They just have to worry about payroll. Armstrong has to fund these guys and has to do so outside of Livestrong. That’s gotta hurt.

 

[Cloxxki]

I can see the point you’re driving at but I’m skeptical. The reason I suggest this is Armstrong actually doesn’t have any money. He’s not as wealthy as people would lead you to believe. In addition USADA is 40 people strong. They don’t need to commission external legal counsel. Its housed within. If Armstrong wants to spend 15m to gut a 15m organization he can go right ahead. But it’s probably Armstrong last 15m. I doubt he has that much in cash. Armstrong will have to go to CAS and once they also find him guilty he’ll try the federal route again. That’s going to cost money. I see it the other way around. USADA will be burning up cash from Armstrong. They just have to worry about payroll. Armstrong has to fund these guys and has to do so outside of Livestrong. That’s gotta hurt.

Isn't Livestrong already picking up lobby costs?

I'd love someone to get into UCI's face and ask them if they are not uncomfortable in the illegal manner Armstrong seems to prefer their verdict or at least opposition in his case that the only rightful one, USADA. In light of allegations from riders regarding all too cozy relations between UCI and Armstrong in doping matters, Armstrong is making UCI look pretty bad here. Who wants to be "good cop" in doping affairs in the public eye, really, when sports governing is your prime role?
It's like a mob boss saying he doesn't want to be tried by the universally respected judge, but by the one who's got a rep of being owned by the mod, duaghter married a convicted mobster, etc.

 

[D-Queued]

... Lance may be a rich guy, but he is not rich and powerful like NBC and the USOC. Lance may retain a little juice, but he is now damaged goods, and he has to proceed with at least some circumspection if he wants any results. Such results take time, and that's one thing Lance doesn't have.

...

Let's ask Lance for his opinion on this:


How would you assess the strength of your case?

"I live for this jersey. It's my life. No one's taking it away from me. This ****ing jersey's mine."

Will you agree to arbitration or any sort of compromise?

"I have given gifts on the Tour de France and very rarely has it ever come back to help me. ... I want to win … no gifts."

Can you overcome the apparent damage to yourself and your reputation? Do you have enough money to continue this reckless legal path, let alone win in the end?

"Finally, the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics: I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles."

I can see the point you’re driving at but I’m skeptical. The reason I suggest this is Armstrong actually doesn’t have any money. He’s not as wealthy as people would lead you to believe. In addition USADA is 40 people strong. They don’t need to commission external legal counsel. Its housed within. If Armstrong wants to spend 15m to gut a 15m organization he can go right ahead. But it’s probably Armstrong last 15m. I doubt he has that much in cash. Armstrong will have to go to CAS and once they also find him guilty he’ll try the federal route again. That’s going to cost money. I see it the other way around. USADA will be burning up cash from Armstrong. They just have to worry about payroll. Armstrong has to fund these guys and has to do so outside of Livestrong. That’s gotta hurt.

This is an interesting point, but perhaps it argues the other way around.

If one player is rational, and the other is not, the irrational party may prevail.

It would be interesting to know what recourse USADA has, and/or to what extent it can exceed its budget. Obviously, through an arbitration procedure on a doping violation, USADA cannot be assessed financial compensation for damages.

Lance should never be expected to take a rational approach. Scorched earth appeals to him.

Like many other high profile violators, he can keep spending well past his total assets - so long as his attorneys are willing to accept an IOU. The PR value of defending Lance is certain to be repaid from opportunities with other high profile athletes with faulty moral compasses. There is probably a line around the block already.

Dave.

 

[DirtyWorks]

USADA is making UCI look pretty bad here.

Fixed that for you. An interesting bit of information from a Spanish article on Wonderboy's situation stated the UCI was locked out of the process entirely.

I think the UCI/IOC did not imagine that information would pass from law enforcement back to the sovereign's anti-doping authority when they designed the system. Every nation should turn that little feature into a law if it isn't already.

I agree Wonderboy's chances of making another exception somehow voiding the USADA action are slim to none, but Team Wonderboy (tailwind cons) are endlessly creative in sodomizing rules to meet their goals. But, some were skeptical of the method. The method (lobbying) is there and it works.

I'm repeating myself, but I'll be glad if the wins are voided, but it's no sure thing. More importantly, that's a long way off from well-deserved felony indictments. Lots of innocent people are still locked out of the sport too. The Andreau's come first to my mind.

 

[thehog]

Let's ask Lance for his opinion on this:


How would you assess the strength of your case?

"I live for this jersey. It's my life. No one's taking it away from me. This ****ing jersey's mine."

Will you agree to arbitration or any sort of compromise?

"I have given gifts on the Tour de France and very rarely has it ever come back to help me. ... I want to win … no gifts."

Can you overcome the apparent damage to yourself and your reputation? Do you have enough money to continue this reckless legal path, let alone win in the end?

"Finally, the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics: I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles."




This is an interesting point, but perhaps it argues the other way around.

If one player is rational, and the other is not, the irrational party may prevail.

It would be interesting to know what recourse USADA has, and/or to what extent it can exceed its budget. Obviously, through an arbitration procedure on a doping violation, USADA cannot be assessed financial compensation for damages.

Lance should never be expected to take a rational approach. Scorched earth appeals to him.

Like many other high profile violators, he can keep spending well past his total assets - so long as his attorneys are willing to accept an IOU. The PR value of defending Lance is certain to be repaid from opportunities with other high profile athletes with faulty moral compasses. There is probably a line around the block already.

Dave.

Armstrong doesn't have a job. In fact he doesn't know how to work at doing anything. He's the laziest guy I know. A lifetime spent paying other people to do your dirty work and drug you.*

Whilst I agree the legal eagles are lining up around the corner Armstrong has zero future income prospects. Zero. He has some investments but he'll be selling up on various parts of those in time to fund the legal battles.*

The other problem USADA is not his only fight. He can't gut them as he has to then start funding the next 2-4 legal fights. There are several coming.*

I'd hate to be in his position. This is only the beginning.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

He's the laziest guy I know.

How do you know him?

 

[thehog]

How do you know him?

Ha!!



....

 

[Turner29]

The unfortunate fact about people like Lance Armstrong is that they will never be poor. Even if he was to forfeit his "bonus" money (the SCA case) and pay their legal fees and interest, etc, he still made huge amounts from endorsements. I would think that some of companies put various "morality" clauses to protect from a doping or other scandal but without seeing the actual contract, we don't know if they can recoup payments, especially if Armstrong is no longer under contract.

If he is smart, he has already put a significant amount of money into annuities, which are very difficult to touch, as might be properties in a foreign country. But most sadly, he has connections and those connection will always be able to provide him with a very high standard of living.

 

[D-Queued]

... I would think that some of companies put various "morality" clauses to protect from a doping or other scandal ...

Only if someone learned their lesson from SCA.

(BTW - Other high profile, very rich athletes have driven themselves to financial ruin)

Dave.

 

[Turner29]

"It would be interesting to know what recourse USADA has, and/or to what extent it can exceed its budget. Obviously, through an arbitration procedure on a doping violation, USADA cannot be assessed financial compensation for damages."

The USADA does bear the arbitration's cost. However, as mentioned by several, by intent and design, costs are not open-ended as in civil court.

 

[D-Queued]

"It would be interesting to know what recourse USADA has, and/or to what extent it can exceed its budget. Obviously, through an arbitration procedure on a doping violation, USADA cannot be assessed financial compensation for damages."

The USADA does bear the arbitration's cost. However, as mentioned by several, by intent and design, costs are not open-ended as in civil court.

And what about the legal costs of responding to baseless requests for temporary restraining orders?

Dave.

 

[Turner29]

And what about the legal costs of responding to baseless requests for temporary restraining orders?

Dave.

Yes, there are costs but huge and I sincerely doubt the process will bankrupt the USADA.

 

[MarkvW]

And what about the legal costs of responding to baseless requests for temporary restraining orders?

Dave.

Not that expensive if you have already got a lawyer and no discovery is involved.

 

[MacRoadie]

Not that expensive if you have already got a lawyer and no discovery is involved.

And as many have pointed out, this isn't USADA's first rodeo: most if not all of the arguments raised in the Armstrong motion have been successfully challenged by USADA in the past. It's not like they had to reinvent the wheel.

 

[thehog]

The unfortunate fact about people like Lance Armstrong is that they will never be poor. Even if he was to forfeit his "bonus" money (the SCA case) and pay their legal fees and interest, etc, he still made huge amounts from endorsements. I would think that some of companies put various "morality" clauses to protect from a doping or other scandal but without seeing the actual contract, we don't know if they can recoup payments, especially if Armstrong is no longer under contract.

If he is smart, he has already put a significant amount of money into annuities, which are very difficult to touch, as might be properties in a foreign country. But most sadly, he has connections and those connection will always be able to provide him with a very high standard of living.

He already is poor. I wish the fallacy that he is wealthy would cease to exist. Where is all this money coming from that you think makes him so affluent?

What properties foreign countries? Already sold.

 

[mastersracer]

He already is poor. I wish the fallacy that he is wealthy would cease to exist. Where is all this money coming from that you think makes him so affluent?

What properties foreign countries? Already sold.

can you provide a source for this? According to published sources, he has a net wealth of about $135,000,000 and annual income of about $10,000,000

 

[D-Queued]

can you provide a source for this? According to published sources, he has a net wealth of about $135,000,000 and annual income of about $10,000,000

I don't know about that, and cannot comment.

What we do know from published sources is that he uses more water annually than the House of Saud.

In that case, he must be very rich.

Dave.

 

[thehog]

can you provide a source for this? According to published sources, he has a net wealth of about $135,000,000 and annual income of about $10,000,000

Wow! that's a lot of money. Enough money to retire on. No need to come back with that sort of money. You know like in 2009

 

[D-Queued]

Wow! that's a lot of money. Enough money to retire on. No need to come back with that sort of money. You know like in 2009

It's not about the bike.

Dave.

 

[MarkvW]

can you provide a source for this? According to published sources, he has a net wealth of about $135,000,000 and annual income of about $10,000,000

I think that the hog's source is the Troll Library.