USADA - Armstrong

[BYOP88]

We could look at this in a different way. Maybe FatPat is telling Lance: "Look Lance, baby. You're on your own here. Don't count on me to help you out."

Probably the first bit of good news Lance has had in a while.

 

[thehog]

Probably the first bit of good news Lance has had in a while.

Pat's probably upset that Lance's Federal suit asks him to come under the UCI and not USADA.

 

[D-Queued]

Lets see.

UCI in charge of testing Armstrong for 15 of the 17 years he raced as a Pro....but it is WADA's fault

Exactly my reaction.

And, what did the UCI do when Lance was a passport high risk, and AFLD/WADA was an observer at the Tour? They avoided testing for EPO and didn't target the high risk cyclists to the incredulity of the observers.

Then there was the advance warnings...

Nope, nothing here. Move along.

What a crock.

Dave.

 

[DirtyWorks]

We could look at this in a different way. Maybe FatPat is telling Lance: "Look Lance, baby. You're on your own here. Don't count on me to help you out."

I bet those two were pretty tight until things started warming up with USADA.

Right now, Pat's got no inside track to what USADA is doing. Not good. Expect a rule change. That's part of why he straight-up lied to CN. If he had inside information like he does at processing, he'd have something sort of ready to say and throw in a personal attack or three.

Can Armstrong use the nuclear option and get away with it sort of like a Landis? I don't think so. I don't think The Hog would play along either. Wonderboy would be threatening the legitimacy of a long-time Olympic sport.

If this were a corporation, right about now both Pat and Hein would get a promotion.

 

[D-Queued]

I bet those two were pretty tight until things started warming up with USADA.

Right now, Pat's got no inside track to what USADA is doing. Not good. Expect a rule change. That's part of why he straight-up lied to CN. If he had inside information like he does at processing, he'd have something sort of ready to say and throw in a personal attack or three.

Can Armstrong use the nuclear option and get away with it sort of like a Landis? I don't think so. I don't think The Hog would play along either. Wonderboy would be threatening the legitimacy of a long-time Olympic sport.

If this were a corporation, right about now both Pat and Hein would get a promotion.

That's what you get when you block out the national anti-doping association (USADA) from testing a race on their soil (TofC).

Which reminds me, didn't Pat say something about WADA being in charge of the testing?

liar, liar...

Dave.

 

[Page Mill Masochist]

Two quick Ferrari questions needed for a column I am writing:

1. How long was his affiliation with Armstrong? I have 1996-2005 and 2009-2010. Is this correct?

2. How much money was Ferrari paid over those years? Total figure.

Thanks.

 

[Stingray34]

I think the endgame for this will be a 'surprise announcement' from LA that his cancer has returned. It will be the ultimate play for public sympathy. Of course there won't be any actual proof shared, citing doctor/patient confidentiality. Just my cynical opinion.

You might be onto something with that one. Great deflection tactic, although it could backfire somewhat: it could inflame and give credence to the self-inflicted claims. Still, he would take the moral high ground on it, that was always his MO.

 

[BroDeal]

Two quick Ferrari questions needed for a column I am writing:

1. How long was his affiliation with Armstrong? I have 1996-2005 and 2009-2010. Is this correct?

2. How much money was Ferrari paid over those years? Total figure.

Thanks.

Eddy Merckx arranged a meeting for Armstrong with Dr. Ferrari in the fall of 1995. Ferrari did not want any more clients but Merckx persuaded him. Merckx was the bike sponsor for Motorola, so he had an incentive. In the spring of '96 Armstrong showed up at team training camps with a shocking amount of muscle packed on him. He was also super strong, able to drop teammates at will during training.

I do recall a story about Armstrong introducing himself to Ferrari at the 1994 Fleche-Wallone where Gewiss-Ballan went 1-2-3. Ferrari was the team doctor. Shortly aftward he was released when he made several statements to the press about EPO and about doping in general.

Armstrong was still paying Ferrari in 2006. It is likely he would have consulted with Ferrari in 2008 when he was planning his comeback.

 

[the big ring]

In the spring of '96 Armstrong showed up at team training camps with a shocking amount of muscle packed on him. He was also super strong, able to drop teammates at will during training.

I remember reading a story that the "normal" Postal guys could do 3 hard days training in the mountains before they needed a break - Lance could do 6.

Apparently he produced "less lactic acid", which as we now know is a complete furphy.

 

[TubularBills]

I think the endgame for this will be a 'surprise announcement' from LA that his cancer has returned. It will be the ultimate play for public sympathy. Of course there won't be any actual proof shared, citing doctor/patient confidentiality. Just my cynical opinion.

The sympathy card?

Highly original call, "too sick to attend..." etc., etc.

makeup by:

The Curious Case of Benjamin Button

sponsored by NIKE.

But what if he actually died?

Naugh, miraculous recovery and return.

TDF 3.0... oldest winner, etc., etc.

8 Tours, extends the record...

Ferrari pardoned, elected to the universal cycling hall of fame.

Movie deal refired...

Fanboys and girls weeping.

I like it.

Highly probable.


(Yanking the Chain)

 

[Race Radio]

Two quick Ferrari questions needed for a column I am writing:

1. How long was his affiliation with Armstrong? I have 1996-2005 and 2009-2010. Is this correct?

2. How much money was Ferrari paid over those years? Total figure.

Thanks.

Late 1995-Present

10% of his income from cycling. Ferrari's bonus for the the 2005 Tour alone was almost $500,000. $10,000,000 is a good estimate.

 

[TubularBills]

Late 1995-Present

10% of his income from cycling. Ferrari's bonus for the the 2005 Tour alone was almost $500,000. $10,000,000 is a good estimate.

Normalizing or rate smoothing over a career? Wouldn't it be more likely that it started at a reasonable rate and accelerated over time?

i.e. with the Merckx intro it was a Bro-deal and by 2.0 it was top dollar?

I'd estimate half that over the duration.

After all its just OJ.

 

[BroDeal]

Late 1995-Present

10% of his income from cycling. Ferrari's bonus for the the 2005 Tour alone was almost $500,000. $10,000,000 is a good estimate.

Italian investigators found a transfer of $465K from Armstrong to Ferrari in 2006. We assume this is Dr. Ferrari's cut of the 2005 TdF bonus. Armstrong was paid a $7.5M by SCA, but $2.5M was for legal costs and interest. The legal costs would not be considered income. 465K is 9.3% of $5M. That is not quite 10%.

A question that occurs to me is how the Italians arrived at the $465K figure. Was it a transfer in U.S. dollars of $465K? Did the Italians take a figure in euros and convert it to dollars? If so did they use the current euro to dollar rate or a rate from 2006?

I just looked up historical exchange rate data. If the payment was made early in 2006 then the exchange rates were similar to what they are today. Through the bulk of 2006 the euro-dollar rate was a tad higher, quite a bit higher near the end of 2006. With the right timing, a $500K figure converted to euros in 2006 could be $465K converted at an exchange from the last couple of months.

 

[BroDeal]

Normalizing or rate smoothing over a career? Wouldn't it be more likely that it started at a reasonable rate and accelerated over time?

I would expect the opposite. Early on Ferrari could demand a high percentage. We know from other cyclists that Ferrari was demanding exorbitant fees for his services. Over time Armstrong would have more leverage. Would Ferrari stop working with Armstrong because Armstrong demanded the percentage be cut to 5% instead of 10%? With Armstrong's earnings of $20M per year in the mid 00's, Ferrari would be turning down $1M.

 

[thehog]

Italian investigators found a transfer of $465K from Armstrong to Ferrari in 2006. We assume this is Dr. Ferrari's cut of the 2005 TdF bonus. Armstrong was paid a $7.5M by SCA, but $2.5M was for legal costs and interest. The legal costs would not be considered income. 465K is 9.3% of $5M. That is not quite 10%.

A question that occurs to me is how the Italians arrived at the $465K figure. Was it a transfer in U.S. dollars of $465K? Did the Italians take a figure in euros and convert it to dollars? If so did they use the current euro to dollar rate or a rate from 2006?

I just looked up historical exchange rate data. If the payment was made early in 2006 then the exchange rates were similar to what they are today. Through the bulk of 2006 the euro-dollar rate was a tad higher, quite a bit higher near the end of 2006. With the right timing, a $500K figure converted to euros in 2006 could be $465K converted at an exchange from the last couple of months.

The interesting part of all this is how does one transfer that sum of money without red flags being triggered. Anything over the amount of 10k will be flagged for money laundering. Regular banks have to report on these types of transfers. I wonder how the money got shifted. My guess is that its European based income that is non-dom thus untaxed shifted straight to Ferrari in Switzerland. It’s a lot of money but it basically is the winning amount of the Tour. Don’t know enough about the US tax system to verify if this income should be taxed even when earned outside the country.

 

[GJB123]

Don’t know enough about the US tax system to verify if this income should be taxed even when earned outside the country.

In principle a US national will have to report all worldwide income, so including any TdF-bonusses. Then you go back to double tax treaty (in this case with France) to see if the right to levy tax is allocated to France or the US. Generally speaking (and without looking up the specific treaty) the right to levy tax on the remuneration for sportsmen is allocated to the country in which the sportsman performed his activities, i.e. France. He would then have had to claim a foreign tax credit in his federal income tax return. So yes, I would expect the TdF-bonus to appear in his US tax return in some shape or form.

Regards
GJ

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

The interesting part of all this is how does one transfer that sum of money without red flags being triggered. Anything over the amount of 10k will be flagged for money laundering. Regular banks have to report on these types of transfers. I wonder how the money got shifted. My guess is that its European based income that is non-dom thus untaxed shifted straight to Ferrari in Switzerland. It’s a lot of money but it basically is the winning amount of the Tour. Don’t know enough about the US tax system to verify if this income should be taxed even when earned outside the country.

Easy answer. Payment was made from one Swiss bank ...to another Swiss bank. In fact I am quite certain that USADA not only has doping evidence, but also a trail of some embarrasing financial transactions as well.

 

[BroDeal]

The interesting part of all this is how does one transfer that sum of money without red flags being triggered. Anything over the amount of 10k will be flagged for money laundering. Regular banks have to report on these types of transfers.

Reports are generated but there are zillions of them per year. Nearly all of them are legitimate. There are so many that they are pretty much useless unless money is being transferred to suspect locations, individuals, organizations, etc.

 

[thehog]

In principle a US national will have to report all worldwide income, so including any TdF-bonusses. Then you go back to double tax treaty (in this case with France) to see if the right to levy tax is allocated to France or the US. Generally speaking (and without looking up the specific treaty) the right to levy tax on the remuneration for sportsmen is allocated to the country in which the sportsman performed his activities, i.e. France. He would then have had to claim a foreign tax credit in his federal income tax return. So yes, I would expect the TdF-bonus to appear in his US tax return in some shape or form.

Regards
GJ

If it was a legitimate service Ferrari was providing then I assume that service would be a tax deduction. I agree it would be taxed by the French and provided as a credit. My assumption is the money wherever it came from hasn’t been taxed by any authority. Way back when in the WSJ they talked about the UBS accounts to avoid tax that Och and set up with Armstrong. Wait and see I guess.

 

[KingsMountain]

The interesting part of all this is how does one transfer that sum of money without red flags being triggered. Anything over the amount of 10k will be flagged for money laundering. Regular banks have to report on these types of transfers.

Do you apply a simple test of "is it reasonable?" to what you write? Just take a guess at the total amount of money transferred each day among banks, either domestically or internationally, and divide by $10K. That's a lot of forms to fill out....

The actual law refers to transfers of "cash money" -- coins or bills and some types of negotiable instruments. There is no reporting requirement on e.g. personal checks or wire transfers, nor does there need to be, since the banking system already tracks these transactions.

I have no idea why you (and some others here) think there is anything inherently illegal about paying somebody $500,000, or why that would be considered money laundering.

 

[thehog]

Easy answer. Payment was made from one Swiss bank ...to another Swiss bank. In fact I am quite certain that USADA not only has doping evidence, but also a trail of some embarrasing financial transactions as well.

Hmmm I don't know.

 

[DirtyWorks]

I would expect the opposite. Early on Ferrari could demand a high percentage. We know from other cyclists that Ferrari was demanding exorbitant fees for his services.

This can be remotely corroborated. Ferrari came out of the Conconi lab that delivered Moser's hour record among other fantastic EPO-fueled results.

The Conconi lab would have been the most authoritative source of EPO use as it is a group of actual scientists and they got incredible results. Ferrari could set a sky-high price with confidence.

Also, yes inter-bank transfers are recorded with great precision, but a transfer to Ferrari is a needle-in-a-GREAT-BIG-haystack problem. That's just not that much money as far as transfers go.

Unless the tax-avoidance is delivered to a sovereign's tax agency on a very big silver platter loaded to the ceiling with currency and tied up in a pretty bow, I don't see why an agency would pursue the issue.

 

[Microchip]

 

[thehog]

Do you apply a simple test of "is it reasonable?" to what you write? Just take a guess at the total amount of money transferred each day among banks, either domestically or internationally, and divide by $10K. That's a lot of forms to fill out....

The actual law refers to transfers of "cash money" -- coins or bills and some types of negotiable instruments. There is no reporting requirement on e.g. personal checks or wire transfers, nor does there need to be, since the banking system already tracks these transactions.

I have no idea why you (and some others here) think there is anything inherently illegal about paying somebody $500,000, or why that would be considered money laundering.

You don’t know what you’re talking about. Just because you once filled out a form when travelling doesn’t mean you understand the banking industry.

Anti-money laundering laws apply to the transferring of monies between countries.

It’s a very important function to ensure companies/citizens are paying due taxes.

 

[RichWalk]

You don’t know what you’re talking about. Just because you once filled out a form when travelling doesn’t mean you understand the banking industry.

Anti-money laundering laws apply to the transferring of monies between countries.

It’s a very important function to ensure companies/citizens are paying due taxes.

As long as it went no where near HSBC's South American dealings