USADA - Armstrong

[MarkvW]

I don't think we should underestimate the ability of the U.S. system to find in favor of a wealthy, connected man who has become an icon for American exceptionalists.

If you keep throwing Hail Marys then there is a good chance that eventually one will be caught.

In the present context, Lance doesn't hold an advantage over USADA.

 

[Turner29]

Melky Cabrera is a big time, current athlete that's paid in numbers Armstrong lusted after. And, while that may be unrelated to the USADA case; the public is going to start avoiding the ballpark. Money talks quietly at first.

1) What do you think Armstrong earned per year?

2) Americans are not going to "avoid the ballpark" because of Cabrera.

 

[Oldman]

1) What do you think Armstrong earned per year?

2) Americans are not going to "avoid the ballpark" because of Cabrera.

1)He "earned" less. He may have banked more what with fleecing the rubes 'n all. Cabrera could have done well after endorsements. Not likely now.

2)San Franciscans may still go because they've got other decent players and have to be partially numb after years of clapping for Bonds. I can tell you in Seattle they have zero love for ARod, Macguire, Bonds, and some of Seattle's old "stars" that they know where on the juice. Brett Boone doesn't hang out here but Griffey is still revered.
I'm talking about the slow disaffection with the game if they don't clean it up. There's still love for clean players...King Felix showed that tonight.

 

[thehog]

I don't think we should underestimate the ability of the U.S. system to find in favor of a wealthy, connected man who has become an icon for American exceptionalists.

If you keep throwing Hail Marys then there is a good chance that eventually one will be caught.

Delusion for sure:


Armstrong, who has faced constant doping allegations despite never testing positive, is also keen to prove he is clean and hopes by racing the Tour again his four children will read about it.

"I'm doing this for my kids," he says in the book.

"With news so accessible these days on the web, they'll be able to read any story they want. And I don't want them growing up and reading all these things about me and doping."

 

[Race Radio]

You should never underestimate the ability of a litigant to delude himself.

True, but in this case he knows he has no chance.The best he is hoping for is that Sparks says that USADA has supplied little evidence.

 

[Turner29]

1)He "earned" less. He may have banked more what with fleecing the rubes 'n all. Cabrera could have done well after endorsements. Not likely now.

2)San Franciscans may still go because they've got other decent players and have to be partially numb after years of clapping for Bonds. I can tell you in Seattle they have zero love for ARod, Macguire, Bonds, and some of Seattle's old "stars" that they know where on the juice. Brett Boone doesn't hang out here but Griffey is still revered.
I'm talking about the slow disaffection with the game if they don't clean it up. There's still love for clean players...King Felix showed that tonight.

1) Regardless of how he earns it, LA is highly compensated: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4134033...ger-businessweek-power-rankings/#.UCxtXULfBUQ

2) Save for 2005 -2008, when the economy was booming, Baseball attendance is still at an all-time high.

 

[Oldman]

1) Regardless of how he earns it, LA is highly compensated: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4134033...ger-businessweek-power-rankings/#.UCxtXULfBUQ

2) Save for 2005 -2008, when the economy was booming, Baseball attendance is still at an all-time high.

And either of these outdated statistics gives you comfort how? Do you really think that continued 'roid use by baseball will maintain fan base? MLB management thinks it's a problem or they wouldn't have busted one of the best players at the moment, right before the playoffs.

 

[spalco]

has either side filed tgeir response yet or are they waiting for the last minute? today is the deadline, right?

 

[Stingray34]

True, but in this case he knows he has no chance.The best he is hoping for is that Sparks says that USADA has supplied little evidence.

Thanks for responding to my last question, RR: if Sparks kept bringing up LA's signing in agreement to arbitration at licence time, but seemed satisfied at a single response to a question about evidence/fear of witness intimidation from USADA it seems promising.

To the bolded, what do you and others think will be USADA's response to the request for more info? What will USADA submit to Sparks? All the evidence? What kind of new improved crapola will Herman and co dish up?

 

[python]

has either side filed tgeir response yet or are they waiting for the last minute? today is the deadline, right?

the dead line is tomorrow, on the 17th (7-day postponement from the day of the hearing on the 10th)...but i was wondering the same - it seems this time the public release of responses has not happened or the sides have not filed yet...
i reckon the latter.

 

[the big ring]

the dead line is tomorrow, on the 17th (7-day postponement from the day of the hearing on the 10th)...but i was wondering the same - it seems this time the public release of responses has not happened or the sides have not filed yet...
i reckon the latter.

Surely midnight Friday is the goal?

 

[Race Radio]

Thanks for responding to my last question, RR: if Sparks kept bringing up LA's signing in agreement to arbitration at licence time, but seemed satisfied at a single response to a question about evidence/fear of witness intimidation from USADA it seems promising.

To the bolded, what do you and others think will be USADA's response to the request for more info? What will USADA submit to Sparks? All the evidence? What kind of new improved crapola will Herman and co dish up?

There was no request for more info, that was spin. Judge Sparks gave each side a week to submit more info if they wanted to. I expect USADA to submit something soon, likely just a review of the key points discussed at the hearing. I expect Lance to submit some barely understandable babble close to the deadline

 

[mewmewmew13]

There was no request for more info, that was spin. Judge Sparks gave each side a week to submit more info if they wanted to. I expect USADA to submit something soon, likely just a review of the key points discussed at the hearing. I expect Lance to submit some barely understandable babble close to the deadline

This surely!
I think they are ramping up the rhetoric.....

 

[Turner29]

And either of these outdated statistics gives you comfort how? Do you really think that continued 'roid use by baseball will maintain fan base? MLB management thinks it's a problem or they wouldn't have busted one of the best players at the moment, right before the playoffs.

Merely pointing out that facts (whatever you might call them) do not support your position.

 

[Merckx index]

1)He "earned" less. He may have banked more what with fleecing the rubes 'n all. Cabrera could have done well after endorsements. Not likely now.

2)San Franciscans may still go because they've got other decent players and have to be partially numb after years of clapping for Bonds. I can tell you in Seattle they have zero love for ARod, Macguire, Bonds, and some of Seattle's old "stars" that they know where on the juice. Brett Boone doesn't hang out here but Griffey is still revered.
I'm talking about the slow disaffection with the game if they don't clean it up. There's still love for clean players...King Felix showed that tonight.

You think Hernandez is clean? After a century when perfect games were thrown on the average of once every five years, we have three (so far) this year, and six in the past three or so years (not counting a seventh that was blown by an umpires miscall). That is a rate of improvement that far exceeds the increase of HRs when steroids became common, and over a time frame that makes it unlikely it's just a statistical fluke. No-hitters, which require less luck than perfect games, are also way up; four this year and I think about fifteen over the past three years.

If someone has an explanation for this that does not involve PEDs, I'd love to hear it. Especially when pitchers today have to face hitters that are on PEDs.

 

[red_flanders]

Hi all, let's please take the baseball and earnings talk to another thread if you want to discuss it. Thanks!

 

[GatorGene]

If and when the USADA is allowed to get around to conducting the forced arbitration, what happens if Lance is shown to have doped, but not shown to have conspired to commit fraud? Isn't proving fraud key to extending the stature of limitations to allow the doping evidence to be heard?

Would he then be a proven doper, but because of the statute of limitations allowed to keep his 7 TdF titles? Wouldn't all punishment be disallowed? Would he be immediately free to resume triathlons?

Just wondering. Thnx.

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

If and when the USADA is allowed to get around to conducting the forced arbitration, what happens if Lance is shown to have doped, but not shown to have conspired to commit fraud? Isn't proving fraud key to extending the stature of limitations to allow the doping evidence to be heard?

Would he then be a proven doper, but because of the statute of limitations allowed to keep his 7 TdF titles? Wouldn't all punishment be disallowed? Would he be immediately free to resume triathlons?

Just wondering. Thnx.

I think that any attempt to hide or lie about doping in the past or a collusion with the UCI would more than satisfy 'fraudulence'......frankly though, if doping is proven, he will be in a maelstrom of hurt with the subsequent actions against him. I am pretty sure at this point there is / was a mole at the UCI.
Not sure getting back on the bike will be the priority.

 

[131313]

You think Hernandez is clean? After a century when perfect games were thrown on the average of once every five years, we have three (so far) this year, and six in the past three or so years (not counting a seventh that was blown by an umpires miscall). That is a rate of improvement that far exceeds the increase of HRs when steroids became common, and over a time frame that makes it unlikely it's just a statistical fluke. No-hitters, which require less luck than perfect games, are also way up; four this year and I think about fifteen over the past three years.

If someone has an explanation for this that does not involve PEDs, I'd love to hear it. Especially when pitchers today have to face hitters that are on PEDs.

I thought peds in baseball led to it being a more offensive game? So, I guess the most likely explanation is "fewer peds" by hitters? Besides, pitchers aren't throwing any harder, are they? I think the limitations on that are related to tendons, not muscles, i.e. arm speed really can't increase over what it now with the the elbow tendon staying intact (I remember reading this in Scientific American or some other pop-science rage). And I'm having a hard time seeing how peds can help a pitcher control a baseball? That said, I'm not a baseball expert.

 

[DomesticDomestique]

If and when the USADA is allowed to get around to conducting the forced arbitration, what happens if Lance is shown to have doped, but not shown to have conspired to commit fraud? Isn't proving fraud key to extending the stature of limitations to allow the doping evidence to be heard?

Would he then be a proven doper, but because of the statute of limitations allowed to keep his 7 TdF titles? Wouldn't all punishment be disallowed? Would he be immediately free to resume triathlons?

Just wondering. Thnx.

The conspiracy to cover up the doping is necessary for extending the statute of limitations.

If he is found guilty of doping in 2009, 10, 11 or 12, then he will serve a 2 year ban which will prevent him from participating in Tri's.

If he is found guilty of doping in 2004 or 2005, which are within the SOL, then he will lose those titles and be a 5-6x TdF Champ*. Plus he will still serve the 2 year ban.

The conspiracy part is needed to go back to 1993-2003.

I don't think they will have any difficulty proving the conspiracy part, look at Zajicek's case, the bar is set pretty low on "conspiracy to cover up doping." As 49-14 said, if you so much as tell the testers that you haven't doped, you've basically committed a conspiracy to cover it up.

 

[MarkvW]

Thanks for responding to my last question, RR: if Sparks kept bringing up LA's signing in agreement to arbitration at licence time, but seemed satisfied at a single response to a question about evidence/fear of witness intimidation from USADA it seems promising.

To the bolded, what do you and others think will be USADA's response to the request for more info? What will USADA submit to Sparks? All the evidence? What kind of new improved crapola will Herman and co dish up?

Judge Sparks shot Armstrong down when he tried to file a late response to the motion to dismiss. This invitation to 'say anything more that you want to say' could be interpreted as a means to strip Armstrong of the argument that he wasn't allowed enough time to present his case. Now, Herman has no gripe on this front.

It indicates to me that the judge, as of last week, had not decided to rule in Armstrong's favor. If you're into reading tea leaves, it's a pro-USADA indicator.

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

Judge Sparks shot Armstrong down when he tried to file a late response to the motion to dismiss. This invitation to 'say anything more that you want to say' could be interpreted as a means to strip Armstrong of the argument that he wasn't allowed enough time to present his case. Now, Herman has no gripe on this front.

It indicates to me that the judge, as of last week, had not decided to rule in Armstrong's favor. If you're into reading tea leaves, it's a pro-USADA indicator.

Would love to believe that to be true......considering all the influence-peddling that LA's cronies are furiously working on in the background, I am hoping for the best, while knowing the worst can not be ruled out.

 

[BYOP88]

There was no request for more info, that was spin. Judge Sparks gave each side a week to submit more info if they wanted to. I expect USADA to submit something soon, likely just a review of the key points discussed at the hearing. I expect Lance to submit some barely understandable babble close to the deadline

You mean after the set deadline, but before his legal teams deadline!

 

[BroDeal]

The conspiracy to cover up the doping is necessary for extending the statute of limitations.

If he is found guilty of doping in 2009, 10, 11 or 12, then he will serve a 2 year ban which will prevent him from participating in Tri's.

If he is found guilty of doping in 2004 or 2005, which are within the SOL, then he will lose those titles and be a 5-6x TdF Champ*. Plus he will still serve the 2 year ban.

The conspiracy part is needed to go back to 1993-2003.

I don't think they will have any difficulty proving the conspiracy part, look at Zajicek's case, the bar is set pretty low on "conspiracy to cover up doping." As 49-14 said, if you so much as tell the testers that you haven't doped, you've basically committed a conspiracy to cover it up.

I don't think it is that easy. The precedent the USADA is relying on to exceed the statute of limitations is based on deceit during prior anti-doping proceedings. The precedent makes a lot of sense because an individual should not be able to benefit from sabotaging the proceedings. Otherwise everyone will see it as a valid strategy and the arbitration process would break down.

The USADA is going beyond that for Armstrong. They are attempting to use incidents outside the arbitration process. While Armstrong's actions may have the same corrupting effect on the anti-doping framework, it is a big leap to draw equivalence between lying in arbitration and acts that occurred when arbitrations was not even occurring.

This part of the USADA's case could easily be thrown out by CAS. If it is upheld then it could greatly expand the power of anti-doping agencies. Although Armstrong's actions were so brazen and outrageous that a new precedent might rarely be applicable to other athletes.

 

[TourOfSardinia]

If you didn't see your star & mine Travis Tygart giving a great talk

Watch here (starts 1h05m ending 1h35m)
http://replays.robertsstream.com/racereplays/cust/tjc/tjc_rt_2012.php

As Dim said over at velorooms where he first posted this
there are one or two great veiled shots at Lance.
Travis Tygart looks a great guy and know how to make his points!