USADA - Armstrong

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Mar 22, 2010
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aphronesis said:
Actually, no. I'd say that applies to your argument. And your priorities. And that's fine.

However, there are MANY on this board and elsewhere who have argued for years that the PR and image hit is what will be the most crippling to Armstrong: professionally, psychologically and financially. And yet, there is not yet any evidence that that will be the case. These are dinosaur values that you're arguing. In the US at least, this matters nil to most on the street.

Even if, as Glen said upthread, this is ultimately about the kids, it's not going to have the desired or stated effect. This is already a given.

So he's banned, so what? How long you think that stigma will last? Two weeks, two months? Not two years. Bet on it.
The fact that my argument does not accord with your interests does not make it simplistic. I'm dissenting from the social process that's expressed here; not the judgment of the individual. Check your knee at the door.

1st bolded. As far as you are concerned, nothing will be the case until Lance says it is. Oh that's right, you're not one of his sycophants.

2nd - Well if it's not about the bike, at least we finally know what it is about . (to you and the rest of the sorry lot of sad gropies) :rolleyes:

3rd Today is as good as it gets. It goes in one direction from here. DOWN. Deal with it.

4th, yes folks, I do respond to him simply so the comedic value will not stop. He's hilarious.
 
Jul 23, 2010
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MacRoadie said:
Not suggesting anyone is right or wrong, but it sure looks like SCA wasn't ruling out the possibility of taking action.. . . .


In other words, if SCA thought they were completely locked in by the settlement language (which they should be intimately familiar with), why bother even monitoring, never mind publicly stating that there was any possiblity of taking action?

Why? Because they spent $7.2 million (including interest and attorneys fees) to settle the claim; because SCA is an insurance company; because insurance companies are notorious for trying to clawback money paid out in disputed cases; and as such, insurers will look for any way to recoup money from the person paid. Insurance companies are not eleemosynary (that means "charitable") institutions and are typically pretty ruthless. In this instance, I think the statement that they were "monitoring" it was to determine whether there would be any testimony upon which they might base a claim that they were somehow defrauded in being induced to enter into the settlement. That's a longshot in my view, but having paid out that much money (which is a lot for even a large insurance company, and SCA Promostions isn't a large company), that's a lot of motivation to look for anything they might leverage into a claim to recoup what was paid out. I personally don't think they will take a shot, but you never know.
 
Jul 13, 2012
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Dr. Maserati said:
How did the whole he said/she said thing work out for Jerry Sandusky?

Was Jerry Sandusky found guilty of perjury? Did he even testify? How is that relevant to the issue at hand?

Reopening an already litigated case just because facts come out after the fact is really, really difficult and I would not get my hopes up over SCA succesfully pursuing Armstrong even if ASO changes the "winner" for each of those Tours.
 
Mar 22, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
How did the whole he said/she said thing work out for Jerry Sandusky?

Yes, but I believe the point is if Sandusky was found guilty of molestation then it would have no bearing on a perjury case. I could be wrong.

I think " I could be wrong " would make a nice signature
 
Mar 22, 2010
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FoxxyBrown1111 said:
They don´t need to know it. Just pretend you are 16 years old and now disgusted that they still stand to their man, yet you believed in the honourable work of Nike. ;)

Please stop giving me a headache, :) I get to leave my cube in an hour.
 
Jul 13, 2012
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alberto.legstrong said:
Yes, but I believe the point is if Sandusky was found guilty of molestation then it would have no bearing on a perjury case. I could be wrong.

I think " I could be wrong " would make a nice signature

I repeat, being found guilty of a crime when you testified in court that you did not commit the crime is not itself enough to support a charge of perfury.

EDIT: Oops, misread -- yes, what alberto.legstrong said.
 
Mar 22, 2010
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serottasyclist said:
I repeat, being found guilty of a crime when you testified in court that you did not commit the crime is not itself enough to support a charge of perfury.

EDIT: Oops, misread -- yes, what alberto.legstrong said.

Yes, I was more or less confirming that I understood what you said. This is a little exercise I do with my wife. 'I said this, you heard that, please correct as appropriate.'
 
Aug 13, 2009
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So what is next?

In the next 2 weeks USADA will release a torrent of information. In addition there will be over 300 pages of info in another form coming sooner then expected. Follow this up with interviews with some of the key witnesses and the UCI stripping lance of everything as they know the risk is too large

And then come the lawsuits.....:D

and then come the investigation and exposure of multiple coverups :D

And then come the Feds :D

.....it's not over :D
 

Dr. Maserati

BANNED
Jun 19, 2009
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serottasyclist said:
Was Jerry Sandusky found guilty of perjury? Did he even testify? How is that relevant to the issue at hand?

Reopening an already litigated case just because facts come out after the fact is really, really difficult and I would not get my hopes up over SCA succesfully pursuing Armstrong even if ASO changes the "winner" for each of those Tours.

It holds the same amount of relevance as to your points about murder - exactly the same.

Highlighted the context of your post.
 
Race Radio said:
So what is next?

In the next 2 weeks USADA will release a torrent of information. In addition there will be over 300 pages of info in another form coming sooner then expected. Follow this up with interviews with some of the key witnesses and the UCI stripping lance of everything as they know the risk is too large

And then come the lawsuits.....:D

and then come the investigation and exposure of multiple coverups :D

And then come the Feds :D

.....it's not over :D

Oh Boy!

Christmas came early this year, it'll be a Fall (as in, more than a season) to remember.

The gift that keeps on giving.
 
Mar 22, 2010
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Race Radio said:
So what is next?

In the next 2 weeks USADA will release a torrent of information. In addition there will be over 300 pages of info in another form coming sooner then expected. Follow this up with interviews with some of the key witnesses and the UCI stripping lance of everything as they know the risk is too large

And then come the lawsuits.....:D

and then come the investigation and exposure of multiple coverups :D

And then come the Feds :D

.....it's not over :D

I am pretty much seeing it that way too. Yesterday was the beginning of the end. He keeps moving his King, he keeps getting put into check and losing pawns along the way making further moves and defenses less viable until ultimately it's checkmate. He has no strong pieces left to mount any real counter attack.

I hope this drags on forever because it's so much fun watching the Aphronesis' of the world contort themselves into pretzels to be able to keep on believing. The cost of not being willing to face the truth is a very high one.
 
Race Radio said:
So what is next?

In the next 2 weeks USADA will release a torrent of information. In addition there will be over 300 pages of info in another form coming sooner then expected. Follow this up with interviews with some of the key witnesses and the UCI stripping lance of everything as they know the risk is too large

And then come the lawsuits.....:D

and then come the investigation and exposure of multiple coverups :D

And then come the Feds :D

.....it's not over :D

Im confused, is this what you hope will happen or did you recieve some information?
 
Jul 12, 2012
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Dr. Maserati said:
How did the whole he said/she said thing work out for Jerry Sandusky?

Like all guilty parties, counsel for Sandusky tried various ways to undermine witness credibility, including have his wife testify that several of the victims were "manipulative." Of course, the "conspiracy" theory was also raised, that the "victims" were actually conspiring because they saw a potential pay day from law suits. Of course, none of this worked.

Despite the claims of Armstrong's counsel, collaborated eyewitness accounts are very compelling evidence that alone often lead to conviction. There was not a shred of physical evidence against Sandusky, yet he is going to spend the rest of his life in jail.

Sadly, Lance's Armstrong's PR machine has not only defamed the USADA but it has distorted the truth regarding the legally established Arbitration process in the USA, legally valid investigation methods and numerous other procedural points of law.

Perhaps it is time for the USADA to hit Lance Armstrong with defamation charges?
 
Race Radio said:
So what is next?

In the next 2 weeks USADA will release a torrent of information. In addition there will be over 300 pages of info in another form coming sooner then expected. Follow this up with interviews with some of the key witnesses and the UCI stripping lance of everything as they know the risk is too large

And then come the lawsuits.....:D

and then come the investigation and exposure of multiple coverups :D

And then come the Feds

.....it's not over :D

Time to fire up the popcorn popper.:)
 
Dr. Maserati said:
How did the whole he said/she said thing work out for Jerry Sandusky?


Different deal altogether. Americans like their winners until they get caught cheating. And they tend to forget pretty quickly too.

If half of Race Radio's recent post about the lawsuits and hopefully some criminal consequences comes true, then that's a great start. That's just a start.... The end goal is 99/100 athletes will not have to think twice about doping even though it will always be out there and there will always be that athlete that dopes.
 
BroDeal said:
It seems to me that either the UCI or the ASO will face problems with what the USADA has to submit to WADA and the UCI to explain Armstrong's sanction. Exceeding the statute of limitations has to be supported and that will lead back to one of the two, maybe both.

While people seem to be concentrating on the "cover-up" of a suspect Tour de Suisse sample, that looks shaky and inconclusive. It was certainly inappropriate for the UCI, and it is embarrassing. But it does not rise to what will be required for the SOL issue.

The best incident to use for SOL purposes is the backdated TUE. That is a clear and probably the best situation where Armstrong's doping should have been discovered and acted on by anti-doping authorities but the conspiracy's deception prevented it. It entailed creating a phony document. A team doctor signed it. Multiple people on the team had knowledge of the scheme. The ASO and/or the UCI accepted the phony document as though it had been filed earlier. That case is the smoking gun for why the SOL should not count, and it matches more closely with the existing precedent than acts of witness intimidation or lies outside an official anti-doping proceeding.

And WADA will respond by saying that Lance had a full and fair opportunity to respond and object to our process and he declined to do so. That makes USADA's decision on this matter final, and the UCI is obligated to respect it.

The limitation argument might be valid, but it was waived by Lance. How, absent an ongoing case, is the UCI going to challenge the final USADA decision?

This is a delicate position for the UCI.
 
Jul 23, 2010
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BroDeal said:
It seems to me that either the UCI or the ASO will face problems with what the USADA has to submit to WADA and the UCI to explain Armstrong's sanction. Exceeding the statute of limitations has to be supported and that will lead back to one of the two, maybe both.

While people seem to be concentrating on the "cover-up" of a suspect Tour de Suisse sample, that looks shaky and inconclusive. It was certainly inappropriate for the UCI, and it is embarrassing. But it does not rise to what will be required for the SOL issue.

The best incident to use for SOL purposes is the backdated TUE. That is a clear and probably the best situation where Armstrong's doping should have been discovered and acted on by anti-doping authorities but the conspiracy's deception prevented it. It entailed creating a phony document. A team doctor signed it. Multiple people on the team had knowledge of the scheme. The ASO and/or the UCI accepted the phony document as though it had been filed earlier. That case is the smoking gun for why the SOL should not count, and it matches more closely with the existing precedent than acts of witness intimidation or lies outside an official anti-doping proceeding.

I don't think the SOL is going to be a very tough issue at this point. We've seen several ways around it, including the Hellebuyck approach, and no doubt that's what the USADA is going to use as a rationale, i.e., that all of this trafficking, use and possession was part of an ongoing and systematic conspiracy that extended back for a period, and that "but for" the continued cover-up, it would have been discovered prior to the SOL running, and that this affirmative misconduct essentially tolls the running of the SOL. Can UCI challenge the sanctions on that ground? I am not sure and will have to look at the WADA Code again on this subject.

Assuming there's nothing to the contrary in the WADA Code, I am not certain that UCI can even bring a CAS action or do anything else to try to challenge the sanctions that USADA will impose. Assuming the USADA Protocols are permitted to fill in gaps where the WADA Code is silent, and further assuming that the Protocols on this subject are also consistent with the expressed provisions of WADA Code, it would appear that UCI may not have any claim at all. Certainly Armstrong has no claim with CAS for any appeal, IMHO.

The USADA Protocols, at Section 11 (which governs cases that have been submitted first to the Review Board process) states, in part at Rule 11(e) that when USADA proposes to issue a sanction against an athlete as it has done here with Armstrong, and the sanction is not challenged by the athlete, the grounds for reversing it or further contesting the sanction are very limited:

. . . If the sanction is not contested in writing within such ten (10) or fifteen (15) day period, then the sanction shall be communicated by USADA to the Athlete or other Person, USOC, the applicable NGB, IF and WADA and thereafter imposed by the NGB [in this case that's USAC]. Such sanction shall not be reopened or be subject to appeal unless the Athlete or other Person can demonstrate by a preponderance of the evidence in a subsequent appeal to the Court of Arbitration for Sport (“CAS”) that he or she did not receive either actual or constructive notice of the opportunity to contest the sanction. The Athlete or other Person may also elect to
avoid the necessity for a hearing by accepting the sanction proposed by USADA. If the sanction is contested by the Athlete or other Person, then a hearing shall be conducted pursuant to the procedures set forth below in sections 14 and 15.

Clearly, in this instance, by not challenging the sanction proposed by USADA, and waiving the right to a hearing as Armstrong has done, the grounds for an appeal to CAS are limited to circumstances that clearly do not apply here. Armstrong and his counsel had notice of the sanctions and the proceedings, both actual and constructive ("constructive" in this instance would mean that they had sufficient notice other than the original charging letter to know about the proceedings and the sanctions proposed).

I know that there's been some suggestion, including in Tim Herman's letter of yesterday to William Bock (USADA's counsel) that Armstrong wasn't going to agree to the sanctions. I don't know if that letter which says Armstrong won't accept the sanction constitutes a "challenge", but perhaps that is the only thing left for him to argue. Even so, under the USADA Protocols if the Herman letter is considered to be the athlete challenge, the Protocols require the hearings set forth in Sections 14 and 15 to occur (unless of course the athlete refuses to participate, in which case, we're back to square one again, i.e., is the athlete essentially agreeing to the sanction or is an athlete entitled to challenge but not participate in hearings and instead claim the process is rigged).

I think any way you slice this, Armstrong's ability to file anything with CAS, given the language of Rule 11(e), is nil. Thus, it seems clear that once the request to sanction has been transmitted and communicated to the NGB (USAC), as well as to WADA and the IOC, that Armstrong is a dead duck here in the U.S. and with respect to his Olympic medal.

The only potential light at the end of any tunnel for him-- and that light is pretty dim in my view-- is if UCI decides to once again try to take the position that USADA had no jurisdiction in the first instance and that the matters concerning results management should have first been referred to UCI for review and handling. Again, it's the jurisdictional battle between UCI on the one hand, which is now pretty much out there on their own, and USADA, WADA, the IOC, and despite Herman's take on it, USAC as well, all opposing the view of UCI that only UCI had jurisdiction. Frankly, from what I've seen, I don't think UCI has either the skill or the further inclination to take on the rest of the cycling and anti-doping authorities and they won't do anything.

This then leads to the final question: What is ASO going to do and what would be in ASO's best interests? And the answer to that is I think they will strike Armstrong's name from the list of TdF winners. Really, they will have no choice if they want the most famous event in the world of cycling to still be a sanctioned event. And I say that because if UCI doesn't have the resolve to fight USADA, they also will have to fall in line with the results that WADA, USADA and USAC are taking, because they don't want to run the risk of creating a fatal rift between themselves and the IOC.

So, unless something dramatically changes (or has dramatically changed this morning, since I've not had time to go back over the last 50 pages of this thread since I went to sleep last night), Armstrong's goose is cooked.

It was sort of fun in this thread to speculate and try to anticipate what his next legal move was going to be in litigation and arbitration, but at this point, I think he has only defensive options with regard to actions that may be brought against him to recover prize money and endorsement money that some sponsors may try to claw back. I am now 99% convinced that Armstrong's legal fight to address the sanctions isn't going anywhere, least of all to the CAS, and it surely also won't be going back to federal court, not now that he's failed at all-- and actually refused-- to exhaust the remedies that were potentially available to him in arbitration, no matter how "rigged" he thought the outcome. Nope, no federal court for him either.
 
BroDeal said:
The USADA might have a witness that gave information about Armstrong's preparation for the '98 Vuelta.

Certainly

My question about 01Aug98 was more a case of "why not earlier" ?. USADA say they have evidence of doping from 1996 and before. Other folks answered that the reason previous titles (Fleche Wallone, maybe even the Worlds) have not been stripped is that they were pre-US Postal.

My concern is that the general public may consider the headline of 1998 and conclude that he was clean in the first part of his career when we know that wasn't the case. Hopefully the full story is detailed in the coming weeks
 
Jul 23, 2009
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TheEnoculator said:


To do that — to do what even his detractors must agree has been a great work – he had to build a platform of lies, and he had to defame people, and bully them in court. He had to be as ruthless in beating back allegations as he was on the bike.

And he had to dope.
Well put.

You know Lance, that lil' Comeback 2.0 is looking like a bad idea right about now.
 
Dr. Maserati said:
Who said - why not adress them rather than making random points?
Also - he was banned less than 24 hours ago - you expect evidence already?



The stigma will last as long as his ban - life.

No, I don't "expect" evidence. I'm telling you that based on the situation I don't see it. Now, or in the immediate future.

Interesting: I'd say there have been nothing but random points made the past several days. From countdowns to the deadline to possible ways of evading arbitration--never mind hour to hour play by play speculations as to "his state of mind". Didn't see you jumping in for any of that.

Go open up the Armstrong Fed thread and take a read through: see how many people talked about the financial and psychological hits. I'm not doing your research for you. Even go back in this thread. You'll find many speculating on the numbers.

stigma=ban=life is your interpretation. nothing more. others not deeply (or fetishistically) attached to the sport may well feel differently. He is a public figure, not simply an athlete.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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alberto.legstrong said:
I hope this drags on forever because it's so much fun watching the Aphronesis' of the world contort themselves into pretzels to be able to keep on believing. The cost of not being willing to face the truth is a very high one.

the next 2-3 weeks we will read an overwhelming amount of information. The groupies will have to twist into absurd levels to continue to ignore the obvious
 
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