Usain Bolt/Carl Lewis

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Oct 16, 2010
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martinvickers said:
USA had 545 OOC tests on T & F Athletes alone in the three months before the 2012 Games. GB had 87 OOC tests on T & F Athletes alone in that period, slightly down on the 'standard' just over a hundred because of preperations to host the games. Canada, for example, had 54.

Jamaica had 1. Not 1 Hundred. 1 test. In BY FAR their most important sport, medal wise.

It doesn't mean Jamaicans dope per se. But it is unacceptable.
tanx mv. appreciate it.
indeed jamaica looks terrible there.
my point still stands though that any number of ooc tests done in a particular country means little if we don't also have info on the size of the pool of athletes in that country.
 
sniper said:
tanx mv. appreciate it.
indeed jamaica looks terrible there.
my point still stands though that any number of ooc tests done in a particular country means little if we don't also have info on the size of the pool of athletes in that country.
The number of tests only matter a little. You need to know which tests were run.

For example, if the athlete passes the T/E ratio test, it doesn't mean the athlete ISN'T using synthetic Testosterone. Many are. Just don't cross the T/E threshold and the synthetic Testosterone test is never run.

Or, for even more chaos, let WADA to release the number of suspcious/positive results they have by sport with no athlete names attached. That would uhhh, mmm, upset the IOC.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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roundabout said:
Heh. I forgot that she was caught already. Pretty ballsy of her to do the triple with a prior ban.
I must admit I wasn't aware either until bernie's post.
Amazing how all reporters/commentators that I've read and/or listened to (in relation to the 2013 WCs and Fraser's achievements there) have stayed silent on this fact.

Nothing to see here. Move on and cheer for the winner.
 

martinvickers

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Oct 15, 2012
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roundabout said:
They also won something like 23 medals in the last 2 Olympics so he kinda has a point.
No, he really doesn't.

Have Jamaica 'stepped it up' Of course they have, it's a giant leap, fair or foul.

But to suggest that Jamaica has not always been a hub of world sprinting is to ignore reality and history. Remember, those medals did NOT include Johnson, Bailey or Christie - all Jamaican born 100m Gold medalists (till BJ was rightly stripped)
 

martinvickers

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Oct 15, 2012
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sniper said:
tanx mv. appreciate it.
indeed jamaica looks terrible there.
my point still stands though that any number of ooc tests done in a particular country means little if we don't also have info on the size of the pool of athletes in that country.
True to a point; it would be useful to know the 'registered pool'...plus how many athletes not in the pool still qualified for London.

But. hey. look. let's be honest here.

RUSADA have been doing a LOT of banning - somebody there has started taking the game seriously. Ditto, to a lesser extent, Turkey.
All three North european superpowers (UK, Germany, France) each did, if memory serves, more tests than USA - germany well in the lead, if memory again serves. THey have had nothing like the number of positives per test that russia has had. That proves nothing per se...
but 1 JAM OOC test is simply derisory. THat's not any individual athlete's fault, but it smells a little like people afraid to get too close to a goose of gold.
 

martinvickers

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Oct 15, 2012
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DirtyWorks said:
The number of tests only matter a little. You need to know which tests were run.

For example, if the athlete passes the T/E ratio test, it doesn't mean the athlete ISN'T using synthetic Testosterone. Many are. Just don't cross the T/E threshold and the synthetic Testosterone test is never run.

Or, for even more chaos, let WADA to release the number of suspcious/positive results they have by sport with no athlete names attached. That would uhhh, mmm, upset the IOC.
I think they did that only recently, DW

they did. Here. -A very thorough numerical breakdown

If you are interested UKAD publish a list of every UK athelte currently under sanction - Here

And finally, according to UKAD they performed 41 in comp and 38 ooc test on cyclists in the last three months
 
Mar 26, 2009
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thrawn said:
Which ones? Their whole sprint team is on the program.
Why even bother testing anyone then, since YOU happen to KNOW exactly who is doping, and who isn't.

You can peruse the start lists beforehand, cross off anyone you think/know is guilty.
 
Mar 26, 2009
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sniper said:
tanx mv. appreciate it.
indeed jamaica looks terrible there.
my point still stands though that any number of ooc tests done in a particular country means little if we don't also have info on the size of the pool of athletes in that country.
USA had nearly 4 times as many T&F athletes at the 2012 Olympics than Jamaica did.

A single OOC test is certainly not good, but they DID have the vast majority of their IC testing during that same period. During the height of summer most Jamaican athletes are off-island for competition, so much harder to get OOC tests done by the national testers, compared to a nation like the USA.
 
silverrocket said:
Why even bother testing anyone then, since YOU happen to KNOW exactly who is doping, and who isn't.

You can peruse the start lists beforehand, cross off anyone you think/know is guilty.
While in the long run a world in which sentences were handed out on the suspicions of a few individuals would be worse, in this 1 particular case though, such a system would have a positive effect.
 
Mar 26, 2009
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While I still have no faith that any athletics winners are clean, I don't like how Jamaica is being singled out as being worse just because they are dominating. A previous poster claimed this dominance by a small nation is "statistically impossible" without dope, and asked for an alternate explanation, so:

1. Unlikely dominance in a single sport by a small population is often cultural: eg. Norway=nordic skiing, West Indies=cricket, Cuba=boxing. Canada with 1/10 the population of the USA still produces 5 times as many professional hockey players. Look at tiny Belgium: any good cyclists ever come from there?;) Athletics is also not just a way of life in Jamaica, it is a way out of poverty.

2. It can be enhanced by genetics: the best sprinters have west-African heritage, which explains the very obvious/politically incorrect racial makeup of practically every 100m final since Valeri Borzov cleaned up in '72. Jamaicans are largely descended from slaves, which came from West Africa. There are entire books about this stuff.

3. It can be enhanced by where a nation devotes its resources. Jamaica pumps almost all of their sporting money into athletics. USA, Russia, China spread theirs around. Canada is one of the few nations to prioritize the winter olympics over the summer, but this resulted in Canadian dominance in the 2010 Olympics. Focus where the odds of success are highest. For Jamaica it is sprinting. The UK has certainly been prioritizing cycling lately, and look at their results (could be a bad example, actually:eek:).

In Jamaica's very, very first Olympics, back when their population was half of what it is now, they managed to get gold & silver in the 400m. In 1952 they were 1st, 2nd again, and the defending champ was 5th! What are the odds of a tiny nation smaller than most major cities having the THREE fastest long-sprinters in the entire world? Were they doping in 1948 and 1952? Not likely!
 
May 27, 2012
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silverrocket said:
USA had nearly 4 times as many T&F athletes at the 2012 Olympics than Jamaica did.

A single OOC test is certainly not good, but they DID have the vast majority of their IC testing during that same period. During the height of summer most Jamaican athletes are off-island for competition, so much harder to get OOC tests done by the national testers, compared to a nation like the USA.
And we did 545x more tests...:rolleyes: Keep searching, you'll find a point sooner or later...well, maybe not.
 
May 2, 2010
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martinvickers said:
No, he really doesn't.

Have Jamaica 'stepped it up' Of course they have, it's a giant leap, fair or foul.

But to suggest that Jamaica has not always been a hub of world sprinting is to ignore reality and history. Remember, those medals did NOT include Johnson, Bailey or Christie - all Jamaican born 100m Gold medalists (till BJ was rightly stripped)
Using two guys who are proven drug cheats doesn't help your point.

Jamaica has usually had pretty decent sprinters though. What they produce now is farcical.
 

martinvickers

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Oct 15, 2012
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thrawn said:
Using two guys who are proven drug cheats doesn't help your point.

Jamaica has usually had pretty decent sprinters though. What they produce now is farcical.
Of course it does. The point is nothing to do with genetics, doping or anything else. It is simply the suggestion that in 2000 odd Jamaica popped up from nowhere in sprint athletics - that is the point i was disproving - Jamaica have LONG been among the top handful of nations. How is another story - but it doesn't stop it being true.

Jamaican athletics may be guilty of very, very many things - 'coming from nowhere' is simply not one of them. That is my only point, and the doping of christie and johnson doesn't change that a jot.
 

martinvickers

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Oct 15, 2012
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ChewbaccaD said:
And we did 545x more tests...:rolleyes: Keep searching, you'll find a point sooner or later...well, maybe not.
WE didn't do anything. USADA did. Be careful on the 'identification.
 
Apr 20, 2012
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silverrocket said:
While I still have no faith that any athletics winners are clean, I don't like how Jamaica is being singled out as being worse just because they are dominating. A previous poster claimed this dominance by a small nation is "statistically impossible" without dope, and asked for an alternate explanation, so:

1. Unlikely dominance in a single sport by a small population is often cultural: eg. Norway=nordic skiing, West Indies=cricket, Cuba=boxing. Canada with 1/10 the population of the USA still produces 5 times as many professional hockey players. Look at tiny Belgium: any good cyclists ever come from there?;) Athletics is also not just a way of life in Jamaica, it is a way out of poverty.

2. It can be enhanced by genetics: the best sprinters have west-African heritage, which explains the very obvious/politically incorrect racial makeup of practically every 100m final since Valeri Borzov cleaned up in '72. Jamaicans are largely descended from slaves, which came from West Africa. There are entire books about this stuff.

3. It can be enhanced by where a nation devotes its resources. Jamaica pumps almost all of their sporting money into athletics. USA, Russia, China spread theirs around. Canada is one of the few nations to prioritize the winter olympics over the summer, but this resulted in Canadian dominance in the 2010 Olympics. Focus where the odds of success are highest. For Jamaica it is sprinting. The UK has certainly been prioritizing cycling lately, and look at their results (could be a bad example, actually:eek:).

In Jamaica's very, very first Olympics, back when their population was half of what it is now, they managed to get gold & silver in the 400m. In 1952 they were 1st, 2nd again, and the defending champ was 5th! What are the odds of a tiny nation smaller than most major cities having the THREE fastest long-sprinters in the entire world? Were they doping in 1948 and 1952? Not likely!
Quoted so peeps will read this - imho - nonsense one more time.

You can make that story of yours for every known nation wide doping scheme, or, even closer to today, every coach wide doping scheme. Just give Victor Conte a call. Or do u think there are no labs that can produce indetectable PED's?
 
Jul 19, 2009
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Bernie's eyesore said:
Anybody who thinks that genetics has nothing to do with Jamaican success is living in cloud cuckoo land.
For sure, for a long time Caribean Islands has given a lot of fast runners, including for France, most of our runners are from those islands.
But despite our sport system, we cannot have such hight density of rare talents.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Bernie's eyesore said:
Anybody who thinks that genetics has nothing to do with Jamaican success is living in cloud cuckoo land.
I'm willing to concede that Africans and/or creole people have more genetic talent than most whites for disciplines that require a particular type of athleticism, such as basketball or, indeed, sprinting.
But there is nothing that would make Jamaicans genetically superior to, for instance, the Afro-American, Afro-Brittish, or Afro-French populations. Still, the latter are getting their asses whiped.
 
Bernie's eyesore said:
Yes, she's back from her ban. Can anyone remember such a short athlete dominating at 200m?
Evelyn Ashford comes to mind. She was rather small and frail and managed to beat East-German runners even on the 200m (although the 100m was more her hunting ground).

But is true that 200m runners have generally been more of the taller, skinny type sprinters (akin to 400m) rather than the short, very muscular type of sprinters. But to say that no shorties have ever won at 200m , is bending the facts somewhat.

As to Moscow, the 200m final field wasn't exactly stellar by any standards. Jeter was out injured (medalist at London) and Felix (Olympic champion) fell by the way side injured in the final. From the 2012 London final no other ladies were present in Moscow, so it shouldn't be a surprise that effectively the only medalist of London that was fit, got the win in Moscow. Might still be PED-enhanced mind you but take it easy on the hyperbole in your arguments.
 
May 27, 2012
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Bernie's eyesore said:
Anybody who thinks that genetics has nothing to do with Jamaican success is living in cloud cuckoo land.
Wait, so there is a genetic difference between people from Jamaica and everyone else? What, like an extra muscle or something? Man, Darwin was right, living on an island can generically mutate a species in some strange ways...:rolleyes:
 

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