Usain Bolt/Carl Lewis

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Apr 20, 2012
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Bernie's eyesore said:
Anybody who thinks that genetics has nothing to do with Jamaican success is living in cloud cuckoo land.
So, it is genetics why Jamaicans are suddenly the part of 'the African Tribe' who are the dominant factor in modern athletics/sprinting numbers? The American part of 'the Tribe' just got lazy? Or do they suddenly have superior training techniques? High cadence intervals? Altitude training?

Meh, just good old fashion doping, hightech I suppose.
Evelyn Ashford comes to mind. She was rather small and frail and managed to beat East-German runners even on the 200m (although the 100m was more her hunting ground).
And was probably one of the last normal looking athletes in track and field.
 
May 27, 2012
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martinvickers said:
WE didn't do anything. USADA did. Be careful on the 'identification.
Why? This is an intertubes forum, not a court or anything. The "we" was in response to a post that identified the "USA," and I am part of that "we." Not to mention that it is irrelevant to the point, which was to snarkingly (pretty sure I made that word up) suggest that the point of the poster was, by comparison, ludicrous.

Thanks anyway Ms. Grammar.
 
Bernie's eyesore said:
Anybody who thinks that genetics has nothing to do with Jamaican success is living in cloud cuckoo land.
And women from East Germany are genetically predisposed to run 400m and 800m, yet Germany failed to win any medal in those disciplines in Moscow.
 
Fearless Greg Lemond said:
So, it is genetics why Jamaicans are suddenly the part of 'the African Tribe' who are the dominant factor in modern athletics/sprinting numbers? The American part of 'the Tribe' just got lazy? Or do they suddenly have superior training techniques? High cadence intervals? Altitude training?

Meh, just good old fashion doping, hightech I suppose.
Or perhaps they had to make up some ground seeing that Jamaica was (and is) a p!ss poor island compared to vast wealth in the US of A.

And was probably one of the last normal looking athletes in track and field.
And absolute joy to watch in action. Then again so was Carl Lewis and we now all know he wasn't squeaky clean either.
 
Aug 8, 2013
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DenisMenchov said:
And women from East Germany are genetically predisposed to run 400m and 800m, yet Germany failed to win any medal in those disciplines in Moscow.
except they're not

the women were systematically doped to the eyeballs



jamaican men are doping too...but they also have superior talent
 
mikeoneill said:
except they're not

the women were systematically doped to the eyeballs



jamaican men are doping too...but they also have superior talent
I'm not excluding that option, but for now, I find it hard to believe that people from such a small island are so good in a sport that has little to do with techniques, without using something different than others.
 
DenisMenchov said:
And women from East Germany are genetically predisposed to run 400m and 800m, yet Germany failed to win any medal in those disciplines in Moscow.
At 400m I would expect a clash between people from west African origin and east African origin. On the 800m it would already be east Africans that are most genetically suited to that distance interspersed with some exceptionally talented kaukasians.
 
DenisMenchov said:
I'm not excluding that option, but for now, I find it hard to believe that people from such a small island are so good in a sport that has little to do with techniques, without using something different than others.
Sprinting has nothing to with technique? If you do not know what you are talking about, please stop talking.
 
Jun 25, 2013
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Fearless Greg Lemond said:
So, it is genetics why Jamaicans are suddenly the part of 'the African Tribe' who are the dominant factor in modern athletics/sprinting numbers? The American part of 'the Tribe' just got lazy? Or do they suddenly have superior training techniques? High cadence intervals? Altitude training?

Meh, just good old fashion doping, hightech I suppose.
And was probably one of the last normal looking athletes in track and field.
Been doping for the best part of 20 years then, eh? :rolleyes:
 
Aug 12, 2009
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DirtyWorks said:
This reply isn't a crticism, just a reminder: The ancient story about Hein Verbruggen demanding France relax it's doping rules in order for Paris' Summer Games bid is any indicator, having a WADA-certified lab in-country is theater.

A country can both host the Olympics and enable doping. The national sports federation can not open a case, notify the athlete they need to "rest" a bit before the games. It is well known that athletes that arrive later to games do so to pass tests. Alternatively, test athletes but use the easiest to defeat tests.

Never tested positive has never been so easy!
Agree. My point to darwin556 was simply that the Brits actually have something to point at to claim 'never tested positive.'

I was not aware Hein said that to the French. I'd like the Olympics to go back to France or Italy. Might actually catch people doping then.

The World Cup next year will let us know how much of a joke Rio is going to be in 2016. I think it will be bonkers personally. I'm not too optimistic given the cries from the Brazilian public I have heard.

Regarding athletes turning up late. IMO they should have to be there at the start. No show, then they don't compete. Everyone should be there for testing. Everyone. Especially the big names in big sports. Notably tennis players.
 
Aug 12, 2009
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silverrocket said:
While I still have no faith that any athletics winners are clean, I don't like how Jamaica is being singled out as being worse just because they are dominating. A previous poster claimed this dominance by a small nation is "statistically impossible" without dope, and asked for an alternate explanation, so:

1. Unlikely dominance in a single sport by a small population is often cultural: eg. Norway=nordic skiing, West Indies=cricket, Cuba=boxing. Canada with 1/10 the population of the USA still produces 5 times as many professional hockey players. Look at tiny Belgium: any good cyclists ever come from there?;) Athletics is also not just a way of life in Jamaica, it is a way out of poverty.
Last point. Hence why Jamaica needs to be dealt with harshly. It's all about the $$$. That was my point. The PTB know the athletes bring in the coin. They know their genetic makeup responds well to doping for track and field. They know if they test a nation rife with dopers, they'll lose money and worse, spend the money obtained via doping to catch their athletes doping. Hence they don't test when they don't have to.

Hockey is a skill sport and the NATIONAL sport. Just like Cricket in India. West Indies are no longer a strong cricket nation. They were till the late 80s. It's in decline now. Why? Oh that's right...money is to be had from ATHLETICS and the results come from doping. People go for the money champ. We've heard plenty of stories from Bolt, Powell and Blake to Aussie interviewers about how they'd loved to have been cricketers, but they stuck with athletics. Won't take a million guesses to realise there was a major push for athletics and that was the money and support.

2. It can be enhanced by genetics: the best sprinters have west-African heritage, which explains the very obvious/politically incorrect racial makeup of practically every 100m final since Valeri Borzov cleaned up in '72. Jamaicans are largely descended from slaves, which came from West Africa. There are entire books about this stuff.
Wow! OMG! I never knew there were entire books claiming because someone was a slave their genetic lineage was somehow superior! Take a look at who finished with a silver medal in the mens 200m in Mexico City in 68. An Aussie. Right between two men of African American descent. Right before times starting going crazy. You're full of $h1t on this one. African genetics respond better to doping for athletics events running. Clean, everyone is about the same. The pre USSR and GDR dopefests of the 70s, 80s and early 90s prove it.

But if you want to play this BS card, then I'll play one too. Chinese women are the greatest genetically gifted runners of all time. Take a look at the world records and what they did in the early 90s! Full natty brah!

3. It can be enhanced by where a nation devotes its resources. Jamaica pumps almost all of their sporting money into athletics. USA, Russia, China spread theirs around. Canada is one of the few nations to prioritize the winter olympics over the summer, but this resulted in Canadian dominance in the 2010 Olympics. Focus where the odds of success are highest. For Jamaica it is sprinting. The UK has certainly been prioritizing cycling lately, and look at their results (could be a bad example, actually:eek:).

In Jamaica's very, very first Olympics, back when their population was half of what it is now, they managed to get gold & silver in the 400m. In 1952 they were 1st, 2nd again, and the defending champ was 5th! What are the odds of a tiny nation smaller than most major cities having the THREE fastest long-sprinters in the entire world? Were they doping in 1948 and 1952? Not likely!
You are so lost it isn't funny. I said they could win. But only ONE athlete. Which is exactly what your example shows. One medal. Nice try with Helsinki champ...the fastest woman in the world that year is from my home town. Not Jamaican. Oh but that's the point...100m runner versus 400m. I wonder why Jamaican's then couldn't win the 100m? Or why they stopped winning till the 80s when Ben Johnson roided up? Oh that's right...nobody is saying anyone pre GDR was doping. Troll logic bro. Troll logic.

But if your attempt to throw legit Jamaican athletes from an age where they were doing what they could do clean in with the current mob is your only card then you'll need to step it up a notch. What you demonstrated that Jamaicans have a natural affinity for 400m. Guess what Bolt won as a junior? The 400m. Then he TRANSFORMED into a 100m/200m guy. You went quite a way to proving my point. Their sprinters are doping experiments.

Count your lucky stars the Chinese don't go POSTAL doping wise. You'll be screaming forever they are cheats, but no, the Jamaican's are just genetically gifted. In a CLEAN sport, no country or genetic heritage puts 5 men in a final from a pool of 3 million. Troll some more for me. Gosh...that does it. I say we all put money together and fund the first pure Nepalese Sherpa Cycling team. Kiss the Tour de France goodbye FOREVER.
 
Aug 12, 2009
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Bernie's eyesore said:
Anybody who thinks that genetics has nothing to do with Jamaican success is living in cloud cuckoo land.
More Bernie logic. It has EVERYTHING to do with why they field such huge pools of world beaters when they're all doped.

Tell us how good they were sprinting before roids came onto the scene? Oh that's right...they only managed the 400m....keep it up champ.

Their genetics respond best to doping practices in SHORT events. Longer...which is where their natural talent lies, not so much. Clean sport, they can win a longer event. Then again you think Sky are legit and Froome is the worlds greatest cycling talent, despite him being the same level of pharmacology turnaround as some sprinters. Keep the lies up some more, they're funny. :D
 

martinvickers

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Oct 15, 2012
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The Hitch said:
If you want to play that game could you please go on a football forum and correct everyone who refers to their football team as "us"? Would be fun to see
The sports team represent the nation. The ADO represents WADA. There's a difference.

Honestly. don't try and be Dr Vortex. You don't have the game.
 
It's not vortex if other posters are making the same point. Tff was talking about the US- we.

If anyone is playing vortex in this case it's you.

Btw real ballsy to insult maserati when he's not here to defend hisself btw.
 

martinvickers

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Oct 15, 2012
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The Hitch said:
It's not vortex if other posters are making the same point. Tff was talking about the US- we.

If anyone is playing vortex in this case it's you.

Btw real ballsy to insult maserati when he's not here to defend hisself btw.
Actually, I was dissing you. I think the vortex is very skilled at what he does. You're not. btw, btw

For what's its worth, I wasn't even aware Dr M wasn't here.

So again, how about you get your facts straight before you try throwing moral weight about you don't actually possess, m'Kay?
 
Mar 26, 2009
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ChewbaccaD said:
And we did 545x more tests...:rolleyes: Keep searching, you'll find a point sooner or later...well, maybe not.
Someone asked what the difference in numbers of T+F athletes was between USA and Jamaica. I answered. As a bonus I explained why OOC testing is more difficult for Jamaican athletes during the competitive season.

Keep searching (and trying to follow the thread of conversation) and you'll understand the points sooner or later...well, maybe not.
 
Mar 26, 2009
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sniper said:
I'm willing to concede that Africans and/or creole people have more genetic talent than most whites for disciplines that require a particular type of athleticism, such as basketball or, indeed, sprinting.
But there is nothing that would make Jamaicans genetically superior to, for instance, the Afro-American, Afro-Brittish, or Afro-French populations. Still, the latter are getting their asses whiped.
That's where my previous "cultural" point comes into play. Jamaicans that are gifted in the explosive sports go into sprinting. Afro-British gifted the same way often end up playing football. Afro-Americans gifted the same way often end up playing American football, or perhaps baseball, and if they are tall (eg. like Bolt) they would almost certainly be steered towards basketball.
 
Mar 26, 2009
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Galic Ho said:
You're full of $h1t on this one.
I heavily snipped you post, since it was filled with unsupported counters to my supported claims, and thus completely useless to furthering the conversation.

Yes, they have studied why people with West African heritage perform better in explosive events like sprinting. Yes they have found physiological differences that give them advantage. Muscle type, bone length ratios, even angle of pelvis. A good, popular book that sums up a lot of this is "Taboo: why black athletes dominate sports, and why we're afraid to talk about it". Interesting science worth learning more about once you are done saying I am "full of ****" for mentioning those facts.

And you missed my point about the 1948-1952 olympic 400m. Jamaica won gold and silver in 1948, thus had the two top long-sprinters in the world. In 1952 they went 1-2-5 in the same race, and the winner was not part of the 1-2 in 1948. That's THREE different top long sprinters in the world, from a nation of less than 1.5 million people (at the time). We can't know for sure, but based on track and cycling history we expect there was no advanced doping anywhere back then, and Jamaica was so poor it is very, very unlikely that they would have been ahead or even equal to the doping done in any other country.
 
Jan 20, 2013
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Bernie's eyesore said:
Anybody who thinks that genetics has nothing to do with Jamaican success is living in cloud cuckoo land.
Genetics play apart to some extent, perhaps not by as much of a margin as we think though, as do they also for the white population.

Example of good genes though might be Merlene Ottey.

http://youtu.be/I9vnUcz5680

She is seen here in 2004 at 50 running in the Olympics. For a 50 year old lady her skin is very good, no correction, her skin is great - she is great!
But this will be to do with her family genetics, not her race genetics.

sniper said:
I'm willing to concede that Africans and/or creole people have more genetic talent than most whites for disciplines that require a particular type of athleticism, such as basketball or, indeed, sprinting.
But there is nothing that would make Jamaicans genetically superior to, for instance, the Afro-American, Afro-Brittish, or Afro-French populations. Still, the latter are getting their asses whiped.
silverrocket said:
That's where my previous "cultural" point comes into play. Jamaicans that are gifted in the explosive sports go into sprinting. Afro-British gifted the same way often end up playing football. Afro-Americans gifted the same way often end up playing American football, or perhaps baseball, and if they are tall (eg. like Bolt) they would almost certainly be steered towards basketball.
Please beware of stereotypes on the issue of superior genetics in black afro Caribbean cultures. There is patchy and misconstrued evidence of superiority of blacks v whites I believe. It is more to do with culture and other less desirable explanations.

http://www.americanscientist.org/bookshelf/pub/not-so-black-and-white
 

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