Valverde case delayed AGAIN!

[icefire]

Nope, there is no way to appeal a CAS decision in the Spanish courts.

Valverde knows this so his legal has said that they will challenge the CAS decision in the Swiss courts. They say one of the Arbs was biased because he had done WADA work in the past. This is nothing more then a media stunt and they will most likely give up before they pursue it.

You don't appear to get it. If the UCI issues a world wide ban there is nothing the Spanish courts can do.

I have no idea of what the process might be, but the Spanish courts may prove that blood bags from OP were obtained illegally by CONI. The issue here is that an alleged offender is punished based on evidences that have been obtained illegally by CONI. Of course, I'm sure that CONI, UCI and IOC will threaten whoever gets in their way as they've done in the past, so the Spanish courts won't do anything. But anyone happy with a justice system that obtains evidences illegally may consider moving to a country like North Korea.

 

[ChrisE]

I have no idea of what the process might be, but the Spanish courts may prove that blood bags from OP were obtained illegally by CONI. The issue here is that an alleged offender is punished based on evidences that have been obtained illegally by CONI. Of course, I'm sure that CONI, UCI and IOC will threaten whoever gets in their way as they've done in the past, so the Spanish courts won't do anything. But anyone happy with a justice system that obtains evidences illegally may consider moving to a country like North Korea.

Obtained illegally? How does that happen? Did they break into the blood dope safe in Madrid and steal it? I thought they obtained it on appeal.

You do hit on a point....all rules go out the window when the CN posse is on the trail of a doper.

I'm sure they are consistent with this POV in all facet of life.

 

[icefire]

Obtained illegally? How does that happen? Did they break into the blood dope safe in Madrid and steal it? I thought they obtained it on appeal.

You do hit on a point....all rules go out the window when the CN posse is on the trail of a doper.

I'm sure they are consistent with this POV in all facet of life.

I've posted on this before but I' don't mind doing it again. CONI got the samples from the Spanish justice by means of a formal request submitted by the Italian justice under an agreement of collaboration between justice administrations. This agreement sets two conditions for the exchange of evidences or the extradition of alleged criminals:
1) The criminal offense is recognized in both countries
2) Any court ruling can be appealed to a higher level court of justice

And the problems are:
1) Doping was not a criminal offense in Spain when OP started
2) CONI rulings cannot be appealed to a court of justice

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I have no idea of what the process might be, but the Spanish courts may prove that blood bags from OP were obtained illegally by CONI. The issue here is that an alleged offender is punished based on evidences that have been obtained illegally by CONI. Of course, I'm sure that CONI, UCI and IOC will threaten whoever gets in their way as they've done in the past, so the Spanish courts won't do anything. But anyone happy with a justice system that obtains evidences illegally may consider moving to a country like North Korea.

It is Valverdes legal team who are claiming that CONI got access to 'bag no. 18" illegally.

Todays judgment by CAS was to an appeal by Valverde against the ban in Italy by CONI. CAS dismissed Valverdes claim and upheld CONI's verdict, it also said this in relation to the evidence.

The CAS Panel considered that the CONI had jurisdiction to render the decision under appeal before the CAS and that the evidence analyzed by the judicial authorities and used in the CONI proceedings was not only admissible but also relevant and could reasonably lead to the outcome determined by the CONI Anti-Doping Tribunal.

 

[icefire]

It is Valverdes legal team who are claiming that CONI got access to 'bag no. 18" illegally.

Todays judgment by CAS was to an appeal by Valverde against the ban in Italy by CONI. CAS dismissed Valverdes claim and upheld CONI's verdict, it also said this in relation to the evidence.

The CAS Panel considered that the CONI had jurisdiction to render the decision under appeal before the CAS and that the evidence analyzed by the judicial authorities and used in the CONI proceedings was not only admissible but also relevant and could reasonably lead to the outcome determined by the CONI Anti-Doping Tribunal.

Unfortunately the terms for the exchange of evidences and the extradition of alleged criminals between EU countries are more frequently than desired in the news in Spain, and not for cases like Valverde's but because of alleged terrorists captured by French police. Today a French policeman has been killed by a basque terrorist.

Under those terms, neither CONI nor CAS can state that their use of OP blood bags is covered by the justice collaboration agreements. They are just getting a free ride on the work of the justice and the police but they don't feel any obligation to abide by the law.

 

[Ripper]

Hmmm,

Well, here is a possible scenario. CAS has ruled that CONI can ban Valverde from Italy. The Spanish Fed may not follow suit, 'cause of the whole lawyering silliness. But that does not stop each and every other fed from banning Valverde, or races from blocking him from participating (depending on the headache they want to deal with with his 'people').

So Valve's ban may not be world wide, it might just be everywhere but Spain

 

[ChrisE]

I've posted on this before but I' don't mind doing it again. CONI got the samples from the Spanish justice by means of a formal request submitted by the Italian justice under an agreement of collaboration between justice administrations. This agreement sets two conditions for the exchange of evidences or the extradition of alleged criminals:
1) The criminal offense is recognized in both countries
2) Any court ruling can be appealed to a higher level court of justice

And the problems are:
1) Doping was not a criminal offense in Spain when OP started
2) CONI rulings cannot be appealed to a court of justice

OK. Then why didn't the Spanish appeals court ask CONI wtf they wanted with the OP evidence then, to confirm your condition # 1? Why did it pass appeal if sporting fraud was not recognized in Spain at the time?

How is that "illegal"? It seems like the Spanish authorites farked up. Sux for Valverde. I personally have no problem with Valverde being banned in Italy, it is the rest of the world and UCI basis of the worldwide ban that bothers me.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I've posted on this before but I' don't mind doing it again. CONI got the samples from the Spanish justice by means of a formal request submitted by the Italian justice under an agreement of collaboration between justice administrations. This agreement sets two conditions for the exchange of evidences or the extradition of alleged criminals:
1) The criminal offense is recognized in both countries
2) Any court ruling can be appealed to a higher level court of justice

And the problems are:
1) Doping was not a criminal offense in Spain when OP started
2) CONI rulings cannot be appealed to a court of justice

The Italians got Bassos blood.
The Germans got a sample of Ullrichs and evidence on Jaksche.

 

[icefire]

OK. Then why didn't the Spanish appeals court ask CONI wtf they wanted with the OP evidence then, to confirm your condition # 1? Why did it pass appeal if sporting fraud was not recognized in Spain at the time?

How is that "illegal"? It seems like the Spanish authorites farked up. Sux for Valverde. I personally have no problem with Valverde being banned in Italy, it is the rest of the world and UCI basis of the worldwide ban that bothers me.

The request came from Italy's justice administration, not CONI. CONI does not depend from Italy's justice department but from different department (Sports and culture I think). Judge Serrano, who was in charge of OP always rejected requests from Italy's justice on the subject. Italy's justice just sent the request again when Judge Serrano was on leave. His deputy's unawareness did the rest of the mess.

 

[Kender]

OK. Then why didn't the Spanish appeals court ask CONI wtf they wanted with the OP evidence then, to confirm your condition # 1? Why did it pass appeal if sporting fraud was not recognized in Spain at the time?

How is that "illegal"? It seems like the Spanish authorites farked up. Sux for Valverde. I personally have no problem with Valverde being banned in Italy, it is the rest of the world and UCI basis of the worldwide ban that bothers me.

the guys blood had EPO in it in the OP raid. the DNA matched that taken by the italian authorities so they knew it was his. He doped or intended to dope plain and simple. and you think he should get away with it it seems. criminal or not at the time of the raid, he doped and should serve his punishment to the cycling community. it's shouldn't have needed CONI to go to the lengths they had to to suspend him in italy

 

[M Sport]

But that does not stop each and every other fed from banning Valverde, or races from blocking him from participating (depending on the headache they want to deal with with his 'people').

So Valve's ban may not be world wide, it might just be everywhere but Spain

Don't take this as support for Valverde from me, because I don't support him. But, if a race invites Caisse, then they are effectively inviting Valverde. There is nothing that can be done to change that until UCI press for a worldwide ban.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

OK. Then why didn't the Spanish appeals court ask CONI wtf they wanted with the OP evidence then, to confirm your condition # 1? Why did it pass appeal if sporting fraud was not recognized in Spain at the time?

How is that "illegal"? It seems like the Spanish authorites farked up. Sux for Valverde. I personally have no problem with Valverde being banned in Italy, it is the rest of the world and UCI basis of the worldwide ban that bothers me.

The highlighted above is wrong.

There are rules within the WADA code that will allow the UCI to make the ban worldwide.

I am trying to find the relevant rule: but the cases of both Manuel Beltran & Stefan Schumacher were actually done by the AFLD which banned them from riding in France and theUCI then made the bans worldwide.

 

[ChrisE]

The highlighted above is wrong.

There are rules within the WADA code that will allow the UCI to make the ban worldwide.

I am trying to find the relevant rule: but the cases of both Manuel Beltran & Stefan Schumacher were actually done by the AFLD which banned them from riding in France and theUCI then made the bans worldwide.

OK, then why are they appealing to CAS saying the Spanish fed should suspend him, if the UCI can do it themselves?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

OK, then why are they appealing to CAS saying the Spanish fed should suspend him, if the UCI can do it themselves?

It is a separate case. There was no guarantee that the CONI ban would be upheld. The UCI could only seek a world wide ban if the CONI case was upheld.

However, I also suspect that WADA & the UCI want to proceed with the case against the RFEC so as to set a judicial precedent, so that going forward if they believe there is enough evidence against an individual that they can order a federation to open disciplinary proceedings.

There have been problems before with National Feds not complying with the WADA & UCI codes - remember Vino's 1 year ban by the Kazakhs for blood doping?!

 

[Dr. Maserati]

From the UCI website:

XIII Chapter FINAL PROVISIONS

Recognition of decisions by other organizations.
366. 1. Subject to the right to appeal provided in chapter XI, the Testing, therapeutic use exemptions and hearing results or other final adjudications of any Signatory to the Code which are consistent with the Code and are within the Signatory’s authority, shall be recognized and respected by the UCI
and the National Federations.
2. The UCI may recognize the same actions of other bodies which have not accepted the Code if the
applicable rules of those bodies are otherwise consisten.

 

[fatandfast]

all these posts prove over and over there should be one professional cycling fed with one set of standards , this when in Rome,or Warsaw ro Kazikstan s-hit doesn't fly. The fact that the UCI would allow him to accumulate points or awards as a"pro" is queer at best. Why would they allow anybody who they 'know" is a doper to get an insurance waiver or still be on the qualified athletes list when he goes into control to take a blood or **** test. Simple answer they are running pro cycling like it's curling. Give the guy due process and a speedy verdict otherwise leave him the F alone. The UCI controls his license if they don't want him to have one take it from him. All that can happen is in court you have to apy him damages and back pay...there is no chance of that right? McQuaid should go on Celebrity Apprentice or Under Cover Boss, he would get sh-it out of both shows in the first few hours

 

[Dr. Maserati]

all these posts prove over and over there should be one professional cycling fed with one set of standards , this when in Rome,or Warsaw ro Kazikstan s-hit doesn't fly. The fact that the UCI would allow him to accumulate points or awards as a"pro" is queer at best. Why would they allow anybody who they 'know" is a doper to get an insurance waiver or still be on the qualified athletes list when he goes into control to take a blood or **** test. Simple answer they are running pro cycling like it's curling. Give the guy due process and a speedy verdict otherwise leave him the F alone. The UCI controls his license if they don't want him to have one take it from him. All that can happen is in court you have to apy him damages and back pay...there is no chance of that right? McQuaid should go on Celebrity Apprentice or Under Cover Boss, he would get sh-it out of both shows in the first few hours

I would go one further - all these posts show that no Sporting Authority should rule over it's own sport. This goes for both National and International sporting authorities.

Remember all federations within cycling are signatories to the UCI rules - which also incorporate the WADA code.

 

[Ferminal]

Good thread.

Just supposing the Spanish fed ignore a worldwide ban from the UCI, what do you think the implication would be for ALL Spanish riders wishing to compete in UCI sanctioned events?
(i.e ride a bike to make that living you are so fond of)

Above all, I think this is the sticking point.

If the UCI and WADA want a global ban, then it will come down to how deep the Spanish Fed. wants to dig in. Is Valverde too big to sacrifice?

 

[Ripper]

Don't take this as support for Valverde from me, because I don't support him. But, if a race invites Caisse, then they are effectively inviting Valverde. There is nothing that can be done to change that until UCI press for a worldwide ban.

Actually, given that Caisse is not going to be around too much longer, this is not an issue! And actually, if I remember a certain TdF, your argument is incorrect (Caisse did not bring Valve in order to avoid being uninvited).

All the legal stuff aside, I think Valverde is hooped now. Now all the arguments are about human rights and "you guys have no right to ..." So, it is no longer about denial of doping. This is when cases start to really slide off the rails of public opinion. The longer he drags this out, the worse the PR is going to be and the less support he is going to get. I am beginning to hope he gets nailed quite hard and sits out 2 years from, I don't know, ummm ... this weekend.

 

[Kender]

About a half dozen riders have been punished in one way or another and Valverde deserves to join them, but if it stops there then it is extremely unfair to every one of those 6-7 riders.

They doped they get punished that's fair. just because someone else gets away with something doesn't mean those caught shouldn't be punished

if they didnt want an unfair situation they shouldn't have doped int he first place

 

[M Sport]

Actually, given that Caisse is not going to be around too much longer, this is not an issue! And actually, if I remember a certain TdF, your argument is incorrect (Caisse did not bring Valve in order to avoid being uninvited).

Not quite correct. At the point Caisse decided not to run him he was banned from Italy and couldn't race, his appeal was due to be heard but a ruling wouldn't have been made in time, but then got postponed anyway. So they had no choice but to drop him.

A more correct precedent is Boonen being ruled eligible to race in the TdF when the organisers didn't want him to.

Like I said though, I don't want to see Piti racing anytime soon.

 

[Galic Ho]

I assume you are referring to Valverde when you talk about deceit. He lied for years about his involvement in OP.

Or are you referring to Seranno who gave the blood samples used for the positive DNA matches for Ulrich, Basso, and Scarponi....but would not release Valverde.

Or perhaps you are referring to Valverde's campaign of deceit since testing positive, searching for a loop hole to avoid the obvious?

Valverde is a doper, it would be deceitful to claim any different.

Guys, brains please! Ulrich, Basso and Scarponi are not Spanish. Their respective racing federations in Italy and Switzerland asked for the evidence and had legal precedent to use it. Spains laws at the time did not allow authorities to do squat.

I am fed up with the posturing and simple mindedness of some people here on this forum with this matter. The Spanish Minister for Sport in 2006 was furious! She was ****ed, upset and shocked, like you are, but knew that legislation needed to have been in place in 2006 for any criminal charges to stick for straight out doping. This has been mentioned dozens of times over the past 12 months. If you were to lazy or stupid to figure this out then consider this your lesson. The Spanish were not protecting anyone. You will never be able to prove that, because the legislation to formally charge a rider as not in place. It is now.

Did Valverde dope? Name me a top 10 GC rider the past 20 years who hasn't or you have no reason to suspect was not doing what the other boys were. Some of the self righteous misinformed opinions on here are really irking. You can all sit at home and think to yourself that Valverde is another doper, but according to Spanish jurisdiction he has nothing to answer for. Whose fault is that? Spanish Parliament for not suspecting something like OP would ever take place? Perhaps but with most shocking and dirty behaviour, once committed, acts are taken to punish other offenders. The Spanish are only really naughty if they knew and did nothing. Prove that. As for the lack of legal paths to take against dopers; Did they rectify this? You bet. Get over it and come back down to earth. Numerous guys have posted rhetorical questions and some of you are still trying to wiggle and worm your way to the moral high ground. There is none. Especially in sports where people dope. You have to follow the law and that is it. CONI tried to be sneaky and should be called out. So too CAS. If you don't respect basic laws, where can you ever draw the line? You cannot break one law to uphold another. I know it sucks but people have to get it right. Rant over.

Can anyone explain to me level of authority European Courts have. Can CAS overturn a Spanish Court? I didn't think they could. If Valverde went to the European High Court would they declare any negative CAS ruling "illegal and beyond their scope and ruling?" Because if this happened in Australia, you'd have been told to go F%#K yourself. Charming isn't it?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Guys, brains please! Ulrich, Basso and Scarponi are not Spanish. Their respective racing federations in Italy and Switzerland asked for the evidence and had legal precedent to use it. Spains laws at the time did not allow authorities to do squat.

I am fed up with the posturing and simple mindedness of some people here on this forum with this matter. The Spanish Minister for Sport in 2006 was furious! She was ****ed, upset and shocked, like you are, but knew that legislation needed to have been in place in 2006 for any criminal charges to stick for straight out doping. This has been mentioned dozens of times over the past 12 months. If you were to lazy or stupid to figure this out then consider this your lesson. The Spanish were not protecting anyone. You will never be able to prove that, because the legislation to formally charge a rider as not in place. It is now.

Did Valverde dope? Name me a top 10 GC rider the past 20 years who hasn't or you have no reason to suspect was not doing what the other boys were. Some of the self righteous misinformed opinions on here are really irking. You can all sit at home and think to yourself that Valverde is another doper, but according to Spanish jurisdiction he has nothing to answer for. Whose fault is that? Spanish Parliament for not suspecting something like OP would ever take place? Perhaps but with most shocking and dirty behaviour, once committed, acts are taken to punish other offenders. The Spanish are only really naughty if they knew and did nothing. Prove that. As for the lack of legal paths to take against dopers; Did they rectify this? You bet. Get over it and come back down to earth. Numerous guys have posted rhetorical questions and some of you are still trying to wiggle and worm your way to the moral high ground. There is none. Especially in sports where people dope. You have to follow the law and that is it. CONI tried to be sneaky and should be called out. So too CAS. If you don't respect basic laws, where can you ever draw the line? You cannot break one law to uphold another. I know it sucks but people have to get it right. Rant over.

Can anyone explain to me level of authority European Courts have. Can CAS overturn a Spanish Court? I didn't think they could. If Valverde went to the European High Court would they declare any negative CAS ruling "illegal and beyond their scope and ruling?" Because if this happened in Australia, you'd have been told to go F%#K yourself. Charming isn't it?

Charming indeed.

What 'criminal' offences were Basso, Scarponi and Ullrich convicted of? Or were they actually convicted of 'use or attempted use of a prohibited substance or prohibited method'.

 

[blackcat]

Guys, brains please! Ulrich, Basso and Scarponi are not Spanish. Their respective racing federations in Italy and Switzerland asked for the evidence and had legal precedent to use it. Spains laws at the time did not allow authorities to do squat.

I am fed up with the posturing and simple mindedness of some people here on this forum with this matter. The Spanish Minister for Sport in 2006 was furious! She was ****ed, upset and shocked, like you are, but knew that legislation needed to have been in place in 2006 for any criminal charges to stick for straight out doping. This has been mentioned dozens of times over the past 12 months. If you were to lazy or stupid to figure this out then consider this your lesson. The Spanish were not protecting anyone. You will never be able to prove that, because the legislation to formally charge a rider as not in place. It is now.

Did Valverde dope? Name me a top 10 GC rider the past 20 years who hasn't or you have no reason to suspect was not doing what the other boys were. Some of the self righteous misinformed opinions on here are really irking. You can all sit at home and think to yourself that Valverde is another doper, but according to Spanish jurisdiction he has nothing to answer for. Whose fault is that? Spanish Parliament for not suspecting something like OP would ever take place? Perhaps but with most shocking and dirty behaviour, once committed, acts are taken to punish other offenders. The Spanish are only really naughty if they knew and did nothing. Prove that. As for the lack of legal paths to take against dopers; Did they rectify this? You bet. Get over it and come back down to earth. Numerous guys have posted rhetorical questions and some of you are still trying to wiggle and worm your way to the moral high ground. There is none. Especially in sports where people dope. You have to follow the law and that is it. CONI tried to be sneaky and should be called out. So too CAS. If you don't respect basic laws, where can you ever draw the line? You cannot break one law to uphold another. I know it sucks but people have to get it right. Rant over.

Can anyone explain to me level of authority European Courts have. Can CAS overturn a Spanish Court? I didn't think they could. If Valverde went to the European High Court would they declare any negative CAS ruling "illegal and beyond their scope and ruling?" Because if this happened in Australia, you'd have been told to go F%#K yourself. Charming isn't it?

actually, if the Spanish wished, they could have prosecuted Fuentes and Valverde et al. There would be numerous statutes. Crimes against public health for one, against Fuentes. See the Portuguese blood doping ring, that MSS doctor was running, I think a guy nearly died late 2008. If you cannot see the potential health ramifications of this level of doping, then you are blind. Nolf, Salanson, Manzano, Gianetti, Museeuw. There are more, and those referenced may not necessarily be related to doping, tho Gianetti and Museeuw were reasoned due to PFCs.

Other statutes could be fraud. Riders win prizemoney, endorsements, on the basis of competing in a sport with PED regulations and laws. They transgress those by-laws, and take prizemoney of clean athletes. OK, so the proportion of riders charging to riders clean is heavily biased to the non-clean guys at the pointy end of the peloton. But they are still transgressing are they not?

 

[Race Radio]

Guys, brains please! Ulrich, Basso and Scarponi are not Spanish. Their respective racing federations in Italy and Switzerland asked for the evidence and had legal precedent to use it. Spains laws at the time did not allow authorities to do squat.

I am fed up with the posturing and simple mindedness of some people here on this forum with this matter. The Spanish Minister for Sport in 2006 was furious! She was ****ed, upset and shocked, like you are, but knew that legislation needed to have been in place in 2006 for any criminal charges to stick for straight out doping. This has been mentioned dozens of times over the past 12 months. If you were to lazy or stupid to figure this out then consider this your lesson. The Spanish were not protecting anyone. You will never be able to prove that, because the legislation to formally charge a rider as not in place. It is now.

Did Valverde dope? Name me a top 10 GC rider the past 20 years who hasn't or you have no reason to suspect was not doing what the other boys were. Some of the self righteous misinformed opinions on here are really irking. You can all sit at home and think to yourself that Valverde is another doper, but according to Spanish jurisdiction he has nothing to answer for. Whose fault is that? Spanish Parliament for not suspecting something like OP would ever take place? Perhaps but with most shocking and dirty behaviour, once committed, acts are taken to punish other offenders. The Spanish are only really naughty if they knew and did nothing. Prove that. As for the lack of legal paths to take against dopers; Did they rectify this? You bet. Get over it and come back down to earth. Numerous guys have posted rhetorical questions and some of you are still trying to wiggle and worm your way to the moral high ground. There is none. Especially in sports where people dope. You have to follow the law and that is it. CONI tried to be sneaky and should be called out. So too CAS. If you don't respect basic laws, where can you ever draw the line? You cannot break one law to uphold another. I know it sucks but people have to get it right. Rant over.

Can anyone explain to me level of authority European Courts have. Can CAS overturn a Spanish Court? I didn't think they could. If Valverde went to the European High Court would they declare any negative CAS ruling "illegal and beyond their scope and ruling?" Because if this happened in Australia, you'd have been told to go F%#K yourself. Charming isn't it?

While you have called those that question your hero simpleminded and stupid it is clear you have no idea of what is actually happening with Valverde. Perhaps you are too lazy to find out?

This has nothing to do with if Spain had a law against doping. This has nothing to do with the Spanish courts. This is about if Valverde can be SANCTIONED by the CONI and the UCI. Spanish and European courts cannot overrule CAS. You may dream about a court allowing this to happen but this would be "Simpleminded and Stupid".

It is not "Illegal and beyond their scope" for CAS to rule on rider suspensions. This is exactly what CAS does. Spanish courts have nothing to do with this.

Valverde is a doper, a cheat, and a liar. For the last 4 years he has played a stupid game that has only succeed in making him look like a idiot in the same manner as Landis and Hamilton. He is about to get a nice 2 year vacation....he should get an extra year for being an idiot.