Vandevelde interview - hope for a clean peloton

[Dr. Maserati]

So, Riis' book is about gardening?

Haven't read it yet (it's not in e format yet) - but how is Riis viewed?

Rhetorical question - but would you describe Riis as a "repentant doper" or someone who only confessed when d'Hont had already revealed it and others like Holm, Aldag, Zabel etc had gone public?

 

[Stravoski]

Please share with us any evidence of a rider using transfusions during a Grand Tour in the 80's.

thanks

Francesco Moser - High Probability.

Winner of the Giro in 1984. And multiple podiums in the Giro.

http://www.slideshare.net/RedFlanders/doping-history

Francesco Moser has admitted using blood doping in 1983-1985

 

[hrotha]

Francesco Moser - High Probability.

Winner of the Giro in 1984. And multiple podiums in the Giro.

http://www.slideshare.net/RedFlanders/doping-history

I thought the logistics and technology at the time made blood doping highly impractical except for efforts like Moser's hour record?

 

[Stravoski]

I thought the logistics and technology at the time made blood doping highly impractical except for efforts like Moser's hour record?

Autologous blood transfusions proved to very practical at US Postal. If it worked for them I can't see why it would not work for Moser.

 

[hrotha]

Autologous blood transfusions proved to very practical at US Postal. If it worked for them I can't see why it would not work for Moser.

Because the logistics and technology of the 00s weren't the same as in the 80s, obviously.

 

[Stravoski]

Because the logistics and technology of the 00s weren't the same as in the 80s, obviously.

In which way specifically did it differ.

 

[Froome19]

So you figure that the only influence on the number of positive tests is the number of people doping? A decrease in the number of positives is the result of an equally proportionate decrease in the number of cyclists using banned substances/methods?

Might be wise to look at your own assumptions before you start calling other people narrow minded.

No of course not, but it is certainly an indication of the people doping I have already admitted that there may be other reasons but using the fishing net example again, even if some or a lot slip through there should still be some caught.

Yes, it's hard to think differently when there's little evidence to suggest things have changed. I don't see where you're seeing this decrease in doping cases, honestly. What we *are* seeing though is a decrease in controls.

Well I am seeing a decrease in doping cases and so are the majority of people who follow cycling to an extent.

Wait. Do you believe that every time a rider dopes they get caught?

See what I replied to Ferminal..

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Autologous blood transfusions proved to very practical at US Postal. If it worked for them I can't see why it would not work for Moser.

Autologous doping? Highly unlikely in road racing in the 80s.
They were not able to freeze their blood for use so they would have had to rein fuse in a very short time frame (40ish days) and even then the RBCs would break down and give limited enhancing effect. in the 80s the riders rode full seasons so there would be few opportunities to withdraw without a very negative performance drop.

Homologous doping (using others blood) would have been logically better, but it would have been quite risky health wise at the time.

 

[Nilsson]

Autologous doping? Highly unlikely in road racing in the 80s.
They were not able to freeze their blood for use so they would have had to rein fuse in a very short time frame (40ish days) and even then the RBCs would break down and give limited enhancing effect. in the 80s the riders rode full seasons so there would be few opportunities to withdraw without a very negative performance drop.

Homologous doping (using others blood) would have been logically better, but it would have been quite risky health wise at the time.

Homologous blood transfusions were already used in the 1970s, with guys like Lasse Viren (the Finnish distance runner). It wasn't even illegal until '86, and not detectable until Tyler H.

I also believe Zoetemelk has admitted in his recent book that he underwent transfusions in his career, and it is also known that the US Olympic cycling team did it in 1984 games in LA... http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1119061/index.htm

 

[thehog]

The number of riders having been caught, for doping in the past 2 years..

You might want to back up some of the statements with some data!

And for the record the bio-passport is not an anti-doping program it’s a dope containment program. It allows the UCI a nice window into the practices of each team. Then they can “officially” warn riders and teams when they need to need to reign the program in. All this is done without the need for sanction. Its ingenious.

If you want a real anti-doping program from the Governing body then just do what the AFLD did in 2008. They managed to knab 6 riders in a few days with specific and targeting testing on a quarter of the budget that the UCI ever had.

To burst your bubble a little more. There’s still mass doping. Most of it is very safe and acts a form of recovery for the riders. It’s just not in the excessive forms as it was before. When administered safely and correctly doping acts as a very good medical supplement to the rigors of training and racing.

Please don’t get lost in the “never tested positive” mantra again. It really doesn’t mean much. You do realize back in 1999 they were saying that it was the cleanest Tour in decades? You also realize that it in 2006 they said the same thing. And in again in 2008 and in 2009 and 2010. It repeated every year to find that a year or few years later it was all crap.

You know why riders deny when they test positive? Not because they didn’t do it but because they know everyone else is doing and they can’t understand why they drew the short straw.

 

[Race Radio]

Francesco Moser - High Probability.

Winner of the Giro in 1984. And multiple podiums in the Giro.

http://www.slideshare.net/RedFlanders/doping-history

Zero probability

Conconi wrote about about how he "prepared" Moser for the Hour record, "Moser's Hour Records: A Human and Scientific Adventure". In it he talks about the various methods they used for the hour record, including Blood doping. He is clear that they did not use it for GT's as they thought it was too risky for multiple reasons, storage and blood pressure in the heat being the two most prominent.

While some athletes did use blood doping in a the 80's in very controlled events there is no evidence that any GT riders used it.

 

[Ferminal]

No of course not, but it is certainly an indication of the people doping I have already admitted that there may be other reasons but using the fishing net example again, even if some or a lot slip through there should still be some caught.

Not really, even if everyone was doping, there still shouldn't be any caught. Well paid riders testing positive is from a lack of care (Frei, presumably Galimzyanov), complete disregard for the testing (Ricco, Schumacher, Di Luca etc) or in utterly absurd circumstances (Landis, Vinokourov, Contador). Positive tests don't come from the effectiveness of the testing regime but from mistakes in the doping regime.

If the net was as effective as you claim, wouldn't it be catching the most successful dopers? Where did Rasmussen, Valverde, Menchov, Basso, Ullrich, Klöden, Rogers, Leipheimer test positive? The list of names who we know doped but didn't test positive is much much bigger (in terms of quality) than those who did test positive. So how that gives us an indication that the top of the sport is clean, I don't know.

The biopassport got Pellizotti, but at the cost of future sanctions. It's a minefield legally and everyone knows the limits. It's good for targeted testing (which the UCI are crap at) but not much more in terms of stopping doping completely. Ashenden says that Contador was doping, but if he wasn't sanctioned for his blood profile, how are any of his rivals going to be caught out by it?

 

[Stravoski]

Zero probability

Conconi wrote about about how he "prepared" Moser for the Hour record, "Moser's Hour Records: A Human and Scientific Adventure". In it he talks about the various methods they used for the hour record, including Blood doping. He is clear that they did not use it for GT's as they thought it was too risky for multiple reasons, storage and blood pressure in the heat being the two most prominent.

While some athletes did use blood doping in a the 80's in very controlled events there is no evidence that any GT riders used it.

Yea thanks for that. I did some more reading about the subject and have come to the conclusion that, as you have stated " A Zero probability " of cyclists using blood doping in GT'S in the 1980's, as far as autologous blood transfusions are concerned anyhow. And as Dr. Maserati stated in a post above in relation to Homologous transfusion's, that method also would also have been highly improbable due to the various health risks associated with that method. Of course both method's present various health risks.

 

[MarkvW]

Oh, btw, thank you for noting a potential benefit of a league structure. You are absolutely correct.

Listen, I'm totally for having independent observers. I just don't want to be made a fool for being the only one doing this.

The league structure is a good idea in many ways. I like it because it would ultimately serve to empower riders and because it sure would better the current system.

But when you empower riders, you necessarily end up giving the riders "rights." Things like privacy and due process can be finessed in an autocratic setup like the UCI, but would end up being collectively bargained over in a league setup.

I look at US pro football. It is in the players interest to regulate doping to both lessen the negative health impacts of the doping itself and to minimize the mass and speed of the chemically enhanced behemoths who batter them into lifelong injuries. But the players HATE antidoping regulation. They apparently want the freedom to dope.

Wouldn't a league system give the riders more rights (a very good thing), but also shield dopers from being caught? As far as antidoping goes, wouldn't a league be a step backward?

 

[TechnicalDescent]

Whether they used blood transfusions in the 80s or not, I think it was still a dirtier decade than today. I think JV would agree with that.

 

[Eusebio Kino]

Autologous blood transfusions proved to very practical at US Postal. If it worked for them I can't see why it would not work for Moser.

That type of blood doping was a very, very risky and impractical form of doping back then. Storage and deterioration of cells, temperature control, were risky, as far as performance enhancing in those days. I don't know exactly when the science of auto blood doping was perfected. Likely auto was not used for Mosers' hour. Even during the 84 Olympics the blood doping by the US cyclists was causing illness and unpredictable "bad fish" syndrome.

 

[Stravoski]

It is highly unreasonable to assume that Ryder Hesjedal's victory in the 2012 Giro d'Italia was anything other than a CLEAN victory for himself, his team, management and staff. JV has responded openly and honestly with a high sense of integrity. Congratulation's to you all, and I wish you continued success in the future, not only in cycling, but also in the fight against doping.

 

[Raul Ramaya]

Yeah - last count I got was 22!

I think he is just trying to say this is a very small group - and I have to agree.

I've noticed that these forums can be that way. The group might be 12, or it might be 200 - it is still very small - and often they are dominated by a few personalities. I imagine you are probably quite aware of this, but I couldn't pass up the chance for the humor!

I wonder about this. Take my example: I've been reading this forum with various stages of obsessiveness going back to 2006 (with some overlap early with the RoadBikeReview version). Only recently did something push me over the edge to actually post. I find it hard to believe I'm the only one.

My point: I suspect the pool of lurkers is far larger than you think.

 

[Benotti69]

I wonder about this. Take my example: I've been reading this forum with various stages of obsessiveness going back to 2006 (with some overlap early with the RoadBikeReview version). Only recently did something push me over the edge to actually post. I find it hard to believe I'm the only one.

Agreed

IMy point: I suspect the pool of lurkers is far larger than you think.

I guess a large proportion of the pro cycling world lurk too

 

[Benotti69]

What isn't so simple is saying that little guys climb better. It's a lot more to do with cardiac output, body composition, and mitochondrial density than body size.

And yes, using a 42*21 on a major, steep, col will slow any rider down compared to using a 39*25. muscles are not efficient at 60 rpm under high load. Period.

Don't spew crap you don't understand.

Giro Del Trentino 2012

Stage 4 results
1 Darwin Atapuma (Colombia-Coldeportes)
2 Carlos Betancur (Acqua&Sapone) + 3
3 Domenico Pozzovivo (Colnago CSF Bardini) + 6
4 Sylvester Szmyd (Liquigas-Cannondale) + 17
5 Damiano Cunego (Lampre-ISD)
6 José Rujano (Androni-Giocattoli) + 21
7 Hubert Dupont (AG2R-La Mondiale) + 30
8 Kevin Seeldraeyers (Astana) + 1:06
9 Miguel Angel Rubiano (Androni-Giocattoli) + 1:20
10 Pierre Rolland (Europcar) + 1:27

 

[thehog]

It is highly unreasonable to assume that Ryder Hesjedal's victory in the 2012 Giro d'Italia was anything other than a CLEAN victory for himself, his team, management and staff. JV has responded openly and honestly with a high sense of integrity. Congratulation's to you all, and I wish you continued success in the future, not only in cycling, but also in the fight against doping.

That’s all very nice. But be good if we could get some hard and fast data. Like how many internal tests are Garmin doing per year and on each rider. What do they do with this data – if any? Without this information what separates them from any other team? Why do they get the “clean team” halo? I’m not saying there is doping I was just hopeful JV would have filled in some of these gaps. Not to be unfortunately.

 

[Froome19]

You might want to back up some of the statements with some data!

And for the record the bio-passport is not an anti-doping program it’s a dope containment program. It allows the UCI a nice window into the practices of each team. Then they can “officially” warn riders and teams when they need to need to reign the program in. All this is done without the need for sanction. Its ingenious.

If you want a real anti-doping program from the Governing body then just do what the AFLD did in 2008. They managed to knab 6 riders in a few days with specific and targeting testing on a quarter of the budget that the UCI ever had.

To burst your bubble a little more. There’s still mass doping. Most of it is very safe and acts a form of recovery for the riders. It’s just not in the excessive forms as it was before. When administered safely and correctly doping acts as a very good medical supplement to the rigors of training and racing.

Please don’t get lost in the “never tested positive” mantra again. It really doesn’t mean much. You do realize back in 1999 they were saying that it was the cleanest Tour in decades? You also realize that it in 2006 they said the same thing. And in again in 2008 and in 2009 and 2010. It repeated every year to find that a year or few years later it was all crap.

You know why riders deny when they test positive? Not because they didn’t do it but because they know everyone else is doing and they can’t understand why they drew the short straw.

Well here are some stats for you then:
List of dopers caught for infrigments in 2011
1)On February 6, 2011 Riccardo Riccò was admitted to a hospital in critical condition after what has been diagnosed as kidney failure, allegedly due to a blood transfusion he performed on himself with 25 day old blood.

2) On 1 March, it was revealed that Tour de San Luis winner Marco Arriagada had tested positive for an 'anabolic substance' during the National Tour of Chile

3)On 19 March, it was announced that Patrik Sinkewitz had tested positive for hGH at the GP di Lugano in late February. He has been provisionally suspended pending results of his B sample, and could face a lifetime ban for this second offence

4)On 3 May, CONI announced that Pasquale Muto had tested positive for EPO at the Giro dell'Appenino in April.

5)On 1 July, USADA announced that Lisban Quintero had accepted a two year ban after testing positive for norandrosterone at the Wilmington Grand Prix on May 22

6) On 12 August, David Clinger was issued a lifetime ban by the USADA, for a positive test for Clenbuterol while serving a ban for a prior offense

2008 riders who were banned to doping in 2008
I wont post the details as there are too many just the names:
6)Rafael Montiel, Juan Guillermo Castro, Camilo Gomez, Carlos Ospina Hernandez, Hernán Buenahora and Giovanni Barriga
7) Ondrej Sosenka
8)Emanuele Sella
9) Riccardo Riccò
10) Maximiliano Richeze
19) 9 members of LA-MSS
20) Leonardo Piepoli
21) Maria Moreno
22) Eddy Mazzoleni
23) Dmitry Fofonov
24) Danilo Di Luca'
25) Moisés Dueñas
26) Jimmy Casper
27) Giovanni Carini
28) Paolo Bossoni
29) Manuel Beltrán
30) Iljo Keisse
31) Bernhard Kohl
32) Stefan Schumacher
33) Alejandro Valverde
34) Davide Rebellin
35) Gabriele Bosisio

It is up to you but have the riders become really that clever, have the officials really detoriated...

Also all your claims are suppositions which sound great yet they have no backing up whatsoever. Indeed they are as you mentioned before the manifestation of your cynicsm. You claim there is mass doping is there? What proof do you have....?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Well here are some stats for you then:
List of dopers caught for infrigments in 2011
1)On February 6, 2011 Riccardo Riccò was admitted to a hospital in critical condition after what has been diagnosed as kidney failure, allegedly due to a blood transfusion he performed on himself with 25 day old blood.

2) On 1 March, it was revealed that Tour de San Luis winner Marco Arriagada had tested positive for an 'anabolic substance' during the National Tour of Chile

3)On 19 March, it was announced that Patrik Sinkewitz had tested positive for hGH at the GP di Lugano in late February. He has been provisionally suspended pending results of his B sample, and could face a lifetime ban for this second offence

4)On 3 May, CONI announced that Pasquale Muto had tested positive for EPO at the Giro dell'Appenino in April.

5)On 1 July, USADA announced that Lisban Quintero had accepted a two year ban after testing positive for norandrosterone at the Wilmington Grand Prix on May 22

6) On 12 August, David Clinger was issued a lifetime ban by the USADA, for a positive test for Clenbuterol while serving a ban for a prior offense

2008 riders who were banned to doping in 2008
I wont post the details as there are too many just the names:
6)Rafael Montiel, Juan Guillermo Castro, Camilo Gomez, Carlos Ospina Hernandez, Hernán Buenahora and Giovanni Barriga
7) Ondrej Sosenka
8)Emanuele Sella
9) Riccardo Riccò
10) Maximiliano Richeze
19) 9 members of LA-MSS
20) Leonardo Piepoli
21) Maria Moreno
22) Eddy Mazzoleni
23) Dmitry Fofonov
24) Danilo Di Luca'
25) Moisés Dueñas
26) Jimmy Casper
27) Giovanni Carini
28) Paolo Bossoni
29) Manuel Beltrán
30) Iljo Keisse
31) Bernhard Kohl
32) Stefan Schumacher
33) Alejandro Valverde
34) Davide Rebellin
35) Gabriele Bosisio

It is up to you but have the riders become really that clever, have the officials really detoriated...

Also all your claims are suppositions which sound great yet they have no backing up whatsoever. Indeed they are as you mentioned before the manifestation of your cynicsm. You claim there is mass doping is there? What proof do you have....?

Firstly, you have Casper included in your "stats"?
Valverde banned in 2008? That is news to me.

Next time you are on Wiki you can add these names to 2011....
Oscar Sevilla
Ezequiel Mosquera
Kirill Sinitsin
David Garcia Dapena
Roy Sentjens

And they were actually people who were caught and sanctioned in 2011 (not the odd stats you have come up with) - not including others sanctioned for the Passport or all the Iranians that were caught in Asia.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Well here are some stats for you then:
List of dopers caught for infrigments in 2011...

What's the point of your list? How are you served by practicing such vigorous denial of the obvious?

You are also missing whereabouts violations that are public. How about a list of races pro teams are allowed to ride that had no testing in 2011?

We know the UCI strategically supresses (SP!!!) positives, why does it matter what penalties go public when the point is for riders not to kill themselves doping.

 

[thehog]

Well here are some stats for you then:
List of dopers caught for infrigments in 2011
1)On February 6, 2011 Riccardo Riccò was admitted to a hospital in critical condition after what has been diagnosed as kidney failure, allegedly due to a blood transfusion he performed on himself with 25 day old blood.

2) On 1 March, it was revealed that Tour de San Luis winner Marco Arriagada had tested positive for an 'anabolic substance' during the National Tour of Chile

3)On 19 March, it was announced that Patrik Sinkewitz had tested positive for hGH at the GP di Lugano in late February. He has been provisionally suspended pending results of his B sample, and could face a lifetime ban for this second offence

4)On 3 May, CONI announced that Pasquale Muto had tested positive for EPO at the Giro dell'Appenino in April.

5)On 1 July, USADA announced that Lisban Quintero had accepted a two year ban after testing positive for norandrosterone at the Wilmington Grand Prix on May 22

6) On 12 August, David Clinger was issued a lifetime ban by the USADA, for a positive test for Clenbuterol while serving a ban for a prior offense

2008 riders who were banned to doping in 2008
I wont post the details as there are too many just the names:
6)Rafael Montiel, Juan Guillermo Castro, Camilo Gomez, Carlos Ospina Hernandez, Hernán Buenahora and Giovanni Barriga
7) Ondrej Sosenka
8)Emanuele Sella
9) Riccardo Riccò
10) Maximiliano Richeze
19) 9 members of LA-MSS
20) Leonardo Piepoli
21) Maria Moreno
22) Eddy Mazzoleni
23) Dmitry Fofonov
24) Danilo Di Luca'
25) Moisés Dueñas
26) Jimmy Casper
27) Giovanni Carini
28) Paolo Bossoni
29) Manuel Beltrán
30) Iljo Keisse
31) Bernhard Kohl
32) Stefan Schumacher
33) Alejandro Valverde
34) Davide Rebellin
35) Gabriele Bosisio

It is up to you but have the riders become really that clever, have the officials really detoriated...

Also all your claims are suppositions which sound great yet they have no backing up whatsoever. Indeed they are as you mentioned before the manifestation of your cynicsm. You claim there is mass doping is there? What proof do you have....?

Thanks for the data and proving my point. The Bio-Passport is a doping containment program. Not anti-doping.

What’s even more funny about what the data you presented was the number of athletes from 2008 that were caught by the AFLD and not the UCI. 9 of your list were caught by AFLD or CONI for CERA which the UCI wasn’t even testing for! The UCI were also refusing to sanction the riders! So funny!

None of the LA-MSS riders tested positive – none! It was a police raid that instigated their suspension not positive tests.

Mazzoleni never tested positive either.

The list goes on.

Without police raids etc. you’ll find your wonder 2008 list will be the same as any other year.

Nice try.

Fail.