Vandevelde interview - hope for a clean peloton

[Tyler'sTwin]

It's obvious that JV stopped doping after 1999 and rode the rest of his career clean. That should give him some anti-doping cred, because he really didn't have to do that. Not quite consistent with the narrative that he's the most hypocritical, ******bag DS in the peloton, which he most definitely is if he knows there's doping in his team, but looks the other way.

JV: "Wiggins is just physiologically better than the rest of the guys out there."

Not sure how he'd know that. Did he test Cadel? Alberto? Andy? The other contenders not riding for Garmin?

 

[JV1973]

"Polish" as in Kielbasa. Or Crullers.

And you are right about me being an anonymous crap writer. I confess. What gave it away - my avatar?

But as you know, there are quite a few ethically repugnant sociopaths hanging out on these forums. It's best to be safe on the interwebs.

Not just a crap writer - I am also a fanboy. Been a fan of cycling for longer than you maybe. Been a fan since well before the turn of the century you know. Can appreciate that the years 2000-2005 were much cleaner than 1995-1999. Backslid a bunch 2006-2009. But seems to be getting cleaner 2010 onward. YMMV.

The future is much more important though. Much more important. Lots of nasty doping potential on the horizon. On the bright side, it will come from Medical "Wonder Drugs" and Medical "Wonder Techiniques". That is the important stuff. Finding cures and helping quality of life for those less fortunate.

ps....Love it when you get peoples panties in a wad, JV. Funny!

I retract and apologize for my "not a fan" statement. glad to know you're human. Sorry for being such a ***. You did deserve it, but it seems you have a heart, so you also deserve an apology.

If you look at just the numbers, nothing more, you see a big improvement after festina, then creeping back, then another big improvement after EPO test, then creeping back, then another improvement after puerto, then creeping back, but then from 2008 onward, the numbers have looked better and better. The creep back hasn't hit and the improvement is all thru the peloton, not just the back half (which is why post 2008 improvement differs from the rest). We shall see if it holds. I hope so. I'm hoping for a mid eighties type cycling: people might be doping, but the **** they are using isn't actually making them go faster. That allows doping to be a decision that sane folks with a conscience won't make, as opposed to an obligatory fact, as it was during certain times of my career.

We'll see. Fingers crossed things hold on like they are now.

The battle is won! the war goes on....

btw - I never said you were a crap writer. Most folks on these forums are fairly good writers and are very intelligent.

ok - I need to go back into hiding (or not writing here)

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

The truth is, the majority of the posters demanding proof of clean performances will never believe any of the evidence presented to them anyway, so as I say, its frankly a waste of time.

That may or may not be true, but what proof is there really?
None that I can think of. We have been offered jack squat. The contenders aren't publishing any data to substantiate the claims of cleanliness. I'd love to see someone do an FTP test followed by a total body Hb test by independent testers sharing the results. Or better yet, a total body Hb test right after targeted races. You could actually prove it's possible to win/contend some of the biggest races in the world with a normal Hb mass.

 

[Angliru]

no, no... I'm just saying that I used to complain when I couldn't make it to the next level. So, I know the line of thought. That's all. I've been there and done the same thing. I still do, quite frankly.

Cesar is a super nice guy. But he has no idea what top level cycling is. He did a great ride up brass town bald 8 yrs ago, and I'm sure has plenty of stories from Colombia, but he doesn't have any knowledge of World Tour level racing. Inside knowledge or otherwise.

Thats not a knock against him, it's just a fact.

There are Colombians in the World Tour that Grajales has ridden with in the past and potentially has regular dialogue with. Is it possible this inside knowledge that you claim he is lacking could be available through these riders ("Otherwise")? How can you comfortably say "it's a "fact" if you don't know the source of the information that he is using when he formed his opinion on the matter?

 

[Race Radio]

The clinic is full of people claiming to be fans, but never have a good word to say about any rider or team who is sucessful.

Translation: They question the myth. Meanies

 

[131313]

Cesar is a super nice guy. But he has no idea what top level cycling is. He did a great ride up brass town bald 8 yrs ago, and I'm sure has plenty of stories from Colombia, but he doesn't have any knowledge of World Tour level racing. Inside knowledge or otherwise.

Thats not a knock against him, it's just a fact.

You're seriously being ridiculous. If you're in the top 5 in Langkawi, you have an understanding of world tour racing. That's a bigger result than a lot of guys on your team have had. Not a knock on those guys, because I understand what professional racing is about, and those guys have jobs to do. It's just a fact.

Secondly, Cesar's lack of getting a ride has more to do with just making some bad decisions and trusting the wrong people more than an inability to get to the next level. Surely you haven't been in the game so long that you've lost perspective on this, and an understanding that luck and politics play a big part for the mid-level guys like Cesar.

 

[Race Radio]

Where there is smoke, there is usually fire. In JV's case I have seen little of either. There are many reasons fans question riders. I see few of those reasons with Slipstream.

I don't hear of any of his riders Motor pacing with Ferrari. His team does not hire the doctors who ran the doping program at Rabo, or Fassa, or Lotto....like other teams do today.

Contrast JV's response to Matt White with BMC's response to LeLange, Och, etc. The slightest hint of an issue and JV fly's to the other side of the world to fire him.......meanwhile team after team hires staff who still actively facilitate doping.

I know many of JV's current and past riders and staff. They have various opinions of him, some positive some negative. They all to a man agree that whatever issues they may have with him the talk about being anti-doping is real. His private stance on the topic is the same as his public one.

The sport has earned it's skeptics. Fans have been lied to and misled for decades. It is unfortunate as the sport continues to change. I know riders and staff on multiple teams, people who are embedded in the sport. They all say the same thing, yes there is still a lot doping in the sport but there are guys who win clear. There are guys on

I know guys who have finished in the top 10 of GT's who are not only clean but actively working to make the sport a better place.

Until Slipstream has a rider test positive, get caught with a fridge full of blood, have a rider or staff turn on them, I am inclined to believe what JV is saying.

 

[131313]

I know guys who have finished in the top 10 of GT's who are not only clean but actively working to make the sport a better place.

Until Slipstream has a rider test positive, get caught with a fridge full of blood, have a rider or staff turn on them, I am inclined to believe what JV is saying.

I know several guys who have either been on the team or are there currently, a couple of them really well. I agree with you for the most part, and I certainly don't think there's any institutional "program" the guys are on. That said, mocking Grajales is a lousy way to make a point...

I also wouldn't be surprised to find out that there are one or two bad apples doing their own thing.

 

[andy1234]

Translation: They question the myth. Meanies

Are you saying pro cycling is a myth?
Or are you referring to your obsession?

 

[MarkvW]

That may or may not be true, but what proof is there really?
None that I can think of. We have been offered jack squat. The contenders aren't publishing any data to substantiate the claims of cleanliness. I'd love to see someone do an FTP test followed by a total body Hb test by independent testers sharing the results. Or better yet, a total body Hb test right after targeted races. You could actually prove it's possible to win/contend some of the biggest races in the world with a normal Hb mass.

I'd bet that you could get a few riders to agree if you'd pay for the testing.

 

[function]

That may or may not be true, but what proof is there really?
None that I can think of. We have been offered jack squat. The contenders aren't publishing any data to substantiate the claims of cleanliness. I'd love to see someone do an FTP test followed by a total body Hb test by independent testers sharing the results. Or better yet, a total body Hb test right after targeted races. You could actually prove it's possible to win/contend some of the biggest races in the world with a normal Hb mass.

Basso did an hb mass test today, this being shortly after the giro effort which he surely targeted.

http://www.mapeisport.it/public/IvanBasso/basso_hbmass_08.06.2012.pdf

 

[JV1973]

You're seriously being ridiculous. If you're in the top 5 in Langkawi, you have an understanding of world tour racing. That's a bigger result than a lot of guys on your team have had. Not a knock on those guys, because I understand what professional racing is about, and those guys have jobs to do. It's just a fact.

Secondly, Cesar's lack of getting a ride has more to do with just making some bad decisions and trusting the wrong people more than an inability to get to the next level. Surely you haven't been in the game so long that you've lost perspective on this, and an understanding that luck and politics play a big part for the mid-level guys like Cesar.

Don't get me wrong, Cesar is a good person and a good bike racer. I'm not saying anything against him. However, I just do not believe that he has any valid insight into doping on the World Tour level. On the Conti level, maybe, but that is an area of cycling that is filled with rumors and has far fewer controls that WT level riders. It's actually very sad that so many conti level riders think WT guys are drinking NASA fuel and that somehow that is the difference.

A little story for you: A kid 2 yrs ago won just about every race you could win in the French u23 ranks. In fact, he won so much, no French pro team was offering him a contract because if you win THAT much you must be doped.

I decided to surpass him out of nowhere, right after he won a big race, with a plane ticket to come down to Girona to be tested. Blood values were anemic, if anything, and hormonal profiles were very normal. Power test was better than 90% of the pro guys on the team at that time. The guy wasn't doped at all, he was just friggin strong, and he just about got left behind, because he "won too much" on the French scene.

his name: Ramunas Navardauskas

That is the Conti level world these days. It's very hard to figure out what's real and what isn't. I'm sure Cesar is exposed to this as well. And I'm sure some of his stories are true. However, my point stands: he would not know about the inner workings of a WT team, not how fast or slow each rider "should" be performing. You can't tell doping by looking at a guy race that you don't know.

So, like I said, it's like the guys on Hollywood squares claiming to be insiders in show biz. That's not anything against them, its just they probably don't know where Brad Pitt is hanging out, just like Cesar doesn't know whether XYZ doping is occurring on a WT team.

 

[JV1973]

Basso did an hb mass test today, this being shortly after the giro effort which he surely targeted.

http://www.mapeisport.it/public/IvanBasso/basso_hbmass_08.06.2012.pdf

Hb mass testing would be great. We helped with studies to validate the method, but it just sort of went off the radar. I don't know why? Maybe due to the fact you must use carbon monoxide to use the method. Not many people like sucking a tailpipe. Unless you live in LA.

 

[JV1973]

You're seriously being ridiculous. If you're in the top 5 in Langkawi, you have an understanding of world tour racing. That's a bigger result than a lot of guys on your team have had. Not a knock on those guys, because I understand what professional racing is about, and those guys have jobs to do. It's just a fact.

Secondly, Cesar's lack of getting a ride has more to do with just making some bad decisions and trusting the wrong people more than an inability to get to the next level. Surely you haven't been in the game so long that you've lost perspective on this, and an understanding that luck and politics play a big part for the mid-level guys like Cesar.

Lachlan Morton was top 5 in langkawi, as a 19 yr old. He can't even drink a beer yet, much less purport to be an inside expert on WT level racing...

 

[JV1973]

Where there is smoke, there is usually fire. In JV's case I have seen little of either. There are many reasons fans question riders. I see few of those reasons with Slipstream.

I don't hear of any of his riders Motor pacing with Ferrari. His team does not hire the doctors who ran the doping program at Rabo, or Fassa, or Lotto....like other teams do today.

Contrast JV's response to Matt White with BMC's response to LeLange, Och, etc. The slightest hint of an issue and JV fly's to the other side of the world to fire him.......meanwhile team after team hires staff who still actively facilitate doping.

I know many of JV's current and past riders and staff. They have various opinions of him, some positive some negative. They all to a man agree that whatever issues they may have with him the talk about being anti-doping is real. His private stance on the topic is the same as his public one.

The sport has earned it's skeptics. Fans have been lied to and misled for decades. It is unfortunate as the sport continues to change. I know riders and staff on multiple teams, people who are embedded in the sport. They all say the same thing, yes there is still a lot doping in the sport but there are guys who win clear. There are guys on

I know guys who have finished in the top 10 of GT's who are not only clean but actively working to make the sport a better place.

Until Slipstream has a rider test positive, get caught with a fridge full of blood, have a rider or staff turn on them, I am inclined to believe what JV is saying.

Could you let me know who the current riders/staff are that have a negative opinion of me? so I can fire them!

 

[blackcat]

Lachlan Morton was top 5 in langkawi, as a 19 yr old. He can't even drink a beer yet, much less purport to be an inside expert on WT level racing...

perhaps not Boulder. But he can suck em down in Australia. Rumour has it that they start on the teet.

*may, or may not, be apocryphal

 

[blackcat]

Where there is smoke, there is usually fire. In JV's case I have seen little of either. There are many reasons fans question riders. I see few of those reasons with Slipstream.

I don't hear of any of his riders Motor pacing with Ferrari. His team does not hire the doctors who ran the doping program at Rabo, or Fassa, or Lotto....like other teams do today.

Contrast JV's response to Matt White with BMC's response to LeLange, Och, etc. The slightest hint of an issue and JV fly's to the other side of the world to fire him.......meanwhile team after team hires staff who still actively facilitate doping.

I know many of JV's current and past riders and staff. They have various opinions of him, some positive some negative. They all to a man agree that whatever issues they may have with him the talk about being anti-doping is real. His private stance on the topic is the same as his public one.

The sport has earned it's skeptics. Fans have been lied to and misled for decades. It is unfortunate as the sport continues to change. I know riders and staff on multiple teams, people who are embedded in the sport. They all say the same thing, yes there is still a lot doping in the sport but there are guys who win clear. There are guys on

I know guys who have finished in the top 10 of GT's who are not only clean but actively working to make the sport a better place.

Until Slipstream has a rider test positive, get caught with a fridge full of blood, have a rider or staff turn on them, I am inclined to believe what JV is saying.

RR, I have followed your various unique handles (NOT sockpuppets) thru 4 cycling fora. And indeed, you are the most well clued and well clued in, contributor. And always engage me. Ta.

But one thing here, we cannot reconcile, is Slipstream's interest in Contador and Cav.

Did Obama wanna close G-Bay. All respected commentators non-mainstream, non-papers of record will scoff. And this is not a Moan Chomsky diatribe neither

One can espouse a core value, and wanna change from inside the tent.

Or, one can concede, it is but a paradox, you are drawn into the smokey vortex where you have to compromise, to a degree the values are eviscerated. My point of the example on the POTUS, you can say they are handcuffed. I can concede they might have good intentions to begin. But at what point is a core value susceptible to manipulation? If it is fluid and malleable, was it ever a "value"?

Contador and Cav, those examples of rider interest, indicate an expedience, that has zero correlation to this core value. Cognitive dissonance or more nefarious?

re: nefarious. I dont mean a program. But able to separate the official team operations, from anything to do with doping, but giving the space for it to be adopted by the riders on the A team.

Now, I have come to some information, by another respected poster on the forum who is a member of one of the leading domestic teams, on a rider I had defended, that Vaughters had publicly excoriated. So I was wrong in my defense, and my mail on said rider. I think I mentioned the case earlier in this thread. I WAS WRONG in this instance. apologies on that.

 

[blackcat]

I know several guys who have either been on the team or are there currently, a couple of them really well. I agree with you for the most part, and I certainly don't think there's any institutional "program" the guys are on. That said, mocking Grajales is a lousy way to make a point...

I also wouldn't be surprised to find out that there are one or two bad apples doing their own thing.

JV gets his back up with my posts. I understand. (but go read BigBoat for the true laffs)

Now, I dont think there is an institutional program.

But, a caveat.

At what point, do you have an A team, sharing sources, sharing suppliers, sharing the mule for multiple deliveries, and sharing someone like Floyd and Levi did (obv diff team) before it becomes a defacto team program.

I am not suggesting 1 thru 9, on the A team, all go to the same doc and get the same hema stored and delivered.

However, there needs to be some new definition, post Festina, post Liberty Seguros, about what actually is, default team program and culture.

If I am number 10 on the Slipsteam squad, and on the bubble for the Tour, and in December Contador is now contracted. I see the bubble now denying one more rider, and me slipping out to the 11th man. And 2 out from July.

What the heck does that indicate about the core value.

Its a fricken paradox, trying to be changing things, when you are still upholding the one aim in all prosport, the top spot on the dias. So I have come to lean to Prof Julian Savulesku who reckons let em do what they do, but without making them criminals like Rasmussen and Ricco.

 

[JV1973]

RR, I have followed your various unique handles (NOT sockpuppets) thru 4 cycling fora. And indeed, you are the most well clued and well clued in, contributor. And always engage me. Ta.

But one thing here, we cannot reconcile, is Slipstream's interest in Contador and Cav.

Did Obama wanna close G-Bay. All respected commentators non-mainstream, non-papers of record will scoff. And this is not a Moan Chomsky diatribe neither

One can espouse a core value, and wanna change from inside the tent.

Or, one can concede, it is but a paradox, you are drawn into the smokey vortex where you have to compromise, to a degree the values are eviscerated. My point of the example on the POTUS, you can say they are handcuffed. I can concede they might have good intentions to begin. But at what point is a core value susceptible to manipulation? If it is fluid and malleable, was it ever a "value"?

Contador and Cav, those examples of rider interest, indicate an expedience, that has zero correlation to this core value. Cognitive dissonance or more nefarious?

re: nefarious. I dont mean a program. But able to separate the official team operations, from anything to do with doping, but giving the space for it to be adopted by the riders on the A team.

Now, I have come to some information, by another respected poster on the forum who is a member of one of the leading domestic teams, on a rider I had defended, that Vaughters had publicly excoriated. So I was wrong in my defense, and my mail on said rider. I think I mentioned the case earlier in this thread. I WAS WRONG in this instance. apologies on that.

AAAAAAA!!!!! This just drives me nuts.

No, there is no "giving space" to anyone. There is no "A" team either. There is not "turning a blind eye"... Stop blabbering insanity, it upsets my bowel movements.

Now, what the hell does Cavendish have to do with this? And exactly when was I ever interested (or able to afford) Cav? how was I going to reconcile Cav and Tyler on the same team? Man you get crappy information. Even if I was, is there a problem with Cav? Other than being a grumpy Napoleon?

As for Contador, I've explained that left right and center. Never got to see his blood records, so never got to find out if my interest was misdirected or not. Simple as that.

 

[blackcat]

my crappy info? Perhaps it was. If you say there was never interest. It may have been Dave Millar's sister and his management group, trying to bid up and increase his hand when negotiating with Brailsford.

But I distinctly recall, "noise", about an interest from SS. Amongst Quickstep. They are the only others I recall.

But, did anyone ever believe, that Cav was going anywhere else but Sky.

Now Wigans for one, would not have wanted to share 7 men in July.

Cav is fungible to Contador. Contador is not denied. Who cares about Cav. It was an example to make a point.

So read Contador. When no one has ever made any connection with Sciandri Cecchini and programs with Cav, just his hanging on in the queen stage.

 

[blackcat]

re: blood records?

you needed that? Who needs his blood records after working in this industry for two decades? Come on...

Upton Sinclair's LAw: "When a man's paycheck depends on his not understanding something, you can depend upon his not understanding it."

http://original.antiwar.com/engelhardt/2012/04/15/what-the-laws-of-war-allow/

sometimes the gatekeepers are ushers

 

[blackcat]

also, jv73

a post of mine a coupla pages back said, the symbiosis between the puritan fan wanting a clean game (Me: original), and other projects, Slipsteam, Bikepure etc, when there is a demand and obligation placed on those operating to deliver.

Iteration #2. I dont think it can be delivered. And I resent the doublespeak. But the fan demands performance, and the voxpop platitudes on anti-doping. I know the self psychoanalysis part.

But you have been stuck in the corner. And not entirely an operators responsibility. But the ignorance and moral certitude, of the fan.

 

[blackcat]

There is no "A" team either.

Ofcourse there is an A team. I am not using the technical language. If you interpret all the language based on an NBA starting squad, you are reading too literal.

You get together with the DSes and management in November, and draw up the schedule for the next year. I dont mean "November". And you speak to your riders individually about goals, the calender, a potential race schedule. You might have 15 on a long list, for the tour, which come May, has been whittled to a tentative 12, 7 or 8 with a bubble. Bad luck to Laurent Lefevre eh.

But to deny you have team leaders, and riders to lead, and play a role, etc. This is what I imply with "A" team. 6 who know they are on the Tour squad in the coming year, and dont gotta fight in the bubble. Hesjedal can know in Novermber, he can have a whack at Spring. And then have leadership at the Giro. And if he is fit, he perhaps gets July.

The A team, is, NOT Tom Pederson. Not Craig Lewis. The guys who get leadership, or specific roles for July.

 

[joe_papp]

Grajales has to know the difference. There are some fantastic interviews with him on a website, the name of which slips my mind at the moment. I learned some interesting stuff from those, like Santiago Botero is a deadbeat who has stolen money from numerous people in the sport.

http://www.cyclinginquisition.com/search?q=Grajales

 

[Stravoski]

I'm interested in imparting lasting change.

Great to hear that. Lets hope that your enthusiasm is matched equally by others within professional cycling's ranks.